Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Designing and marketing new metal detectors.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Tinkerer View Post
    Water proofing adds a lot to the cost.

    Tinkerer
    I had Fisher 1280 once. Waterproof.
    Hard, robust, bakelite-look-like material case.
    Seems a bit more expensive than conventional cases.
    Coil cable goes directly in to case, no connector.
    Same as earphones cable.
    Potentiometers are having additional rubber as isolator.
    The rest is same as on other detectors.
    Yes, maybe 5-10% more expensive than conventional md.

    Comment


    • #62
      Tinkerer, what are the usual depths at which those nuggets are founded there?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by ivconic View Post
        Tinkerer, what are the usual depths at which those nuggets are founded there?
        Nuggets are found during normal mining operations as practiced in the jungle. People dig with pick and shovel and wash the dirt. Then they follow the gold bearing dirt along the layer as far as they can, meaning until the overburden gets too deep.

        So, basically, they find the gold that is at the surface somewhere and then follow the trail.

        Others dredge the river beds. It seems that the rivers bring new gold from the banks with every flood.

        They used to hydro jet the river banks, but that is forbidden now.

        An acquaintance of mine had a river dredging operation in the Cuyuni river, a few hours upriver from the town ELDORADO, state BOLIVAR.(LOOK IT UP ON GOOGLE EARTH) The government took it away from him, supposedly to save the environment. They gave him a piece of land on the river bank to deforest and raise cattle. He did not complain, because he found gold on the land right away. But he can get no licence to mine the gold, so he must do it when nobody is looking.

        I think a decent VLF would do fine for the nuggets here. It is all virgin territory for metal detectors. Waterproof would be good, but mostly it must be extremely rugged. Your TGSL would probably do just fine.

        The first model must be low price.

        As the market grows, gradually more sophisticated models will find a demand.

        Tinkerer

        Comment


        • #64
          I see.
          Thanks, "picture" is getting more clear now.
          Let us now summarize all the demands for such detector.
          Tinkerer please do make your own list of demands, something like this:

          (example list)
          * Must be waterproof.
          * Must be simple to use, least possible commands.
          * It is desirable to draw less power.
          * Battery to be simple, long lasting and easy reachargeable,
          * It is desirable to have solar charger in package.
          * Could be PI or IB.
          * Not necessary to be "ultra deep".
          * Price range...?
          * Discrimination...?
          * Detector case: hip/belt mounted or shaft mounted?
          * Coil cable removable, with connector or fixed to detector case?
          * Speaker or earphones or both?
          * Coil size?

          Because once you make exact list of features; it will be much easier to find most suitable detector for such needs.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by ivconic View Post
            I see.
            Thanks, "picture" is getting more clear now.
            Let us now summarize all the demands for such detector.
            Tinkerer please do make your own list of demands, something like this:

            (example list)
            * Must be waterproof.
            * Must be simple to use, least possible commands.
            * It is desirable to draw less power.
            * Battery to be simple, long lasting and easy reachargeable,
            * It is desirable to have solar charger in package.
            * Could be PI or IB.
            * Not necessary to be "ultra deep".
            * Price range...?
            * Discrimination...?
            * Detector case: hip/belt mounted or shaft mounted?
            * Coil cable removable, with connector or fixed to detector case?
            * Speaker or earphones or both?
            * Coil size?

            Because once you make exact list of features; it will be much easier to find most suitable detector for such needs.
            This is a very good list to start with. I will add my ideas. Hopefully, others will contribute too.

            Ivconic, you seem to think that I want to design, build or manufacture such a detector for the nearby gold fields. This is not my intention. I only mention this region because I have some inside knowledge about it, therefore it can serve as example for many similar regions in the world.

            I am personally more interested to work on Carl's idea of a non military mine detector. But, the way I see it, this mine detector could be very similar to the gold detector and designing the detector for both purposes would help a lot in solving the financial aspects.

            Tinkerer

            Comment


            • #66
              I see.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by ivconic View Post
                I see.
                I tried to send you a PM, but don't seem to find a way to do it, no PM or email address.

                I don't think the electronic circuit for the mine/gold detector is a problem. The sensitivity and depth of the TGSL is probably enough.

                There are many other problems to be solved.

                Ergonomics

                Materials for the stem, waterproof loudspeaker or earphones.

                Packaging in general.

                Battery and chargers. The battery should be external and easily switched in the field.

                Coils with connector to be easily exchanged in the field.

                All parts to be easily exchanged in the field. Detectors that get many days of use in rugged terrain suffer a lot from wear and tear. Such damage must be repairable in the field.
                The regions where such detectors are needed and to be used, are remote. A factory repair would take months and the shipping might cost nearly as much as a new detector.

                In most of these regions, the possibility of working is seasonal. A damaged detector means a lost season, unless it can be repaired in the field.

                Mouser of Digi-Key, charge me US& 100,00 minimum for shipping and I live near a 1,000,000 people town.

                These are some of the design factors to be taken into account.

                We must also look at the marketing factors. If there is no market demand, there will never be funds available for R&D, and manufacturing.

                Let's continue building the list of design factors and also start the list of marketing ideas.

                Within the marketing ideas, maybe the first factor to look at, is the number of detectors to be produced.

                1each - first tested prototype.

                10each - field testing prototype.

                100each - market exploration.

                1000each - first production run.

                This is just an example. It takes some work to make a realistic projection.

                All this needs to be financed. This, we need to look up right from the start. NO MONEY, NO HONEY. We do not want to get stuck up the creek without a paddle, holding our design, that has cost us a lot of hard work in the hand like a White Elephant. Ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!

                Tinkerer

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tinkerer View Post
                  I tried to send you a PM, but don't seem to find a way to do it, no PM or email address.
                  I don't think the electronic circuit for the mine/gold detector is a problem. The sensitivity and depth of the TGSL is probably enough.
                  There are many other problems to be solved.
                  Ergonomics
                  Materials for the stem, waterproof loudspeaker or earphones.
                  Packaging in general.
                  Battery and chargers. The battery should be external and easily switched in the field.
                  Coils with connector to be easily exchanged in the field.
                  All parts to be easily exchanged in the field. Detectors that get many days of use in rugged terrain suffer a lot from wear and tear. Such damage must be repairable in the field.
                  The regions where such detectors are needed and to be used, are remote. A factory repair would take months and the shipping might cost nearly as much as a new detector.
                  In most of these regions, the possibility of working is seasonal. A damaged detector means a lost season, unless it can be repaired in the field.
                  Mouser of Digi-Key, charge me US& 100,00 minimum for shipping and I live near a 1,000,000 people town.
                  These are some of the design factors to be taken into account.
                  We must also look at the marketing factors. If there is no market demand, there will never be funds available for R&D, and manufacturing.
                  Let's continue building the list of design factors and also start the list of marketing ideas.
                  Within the marketing ideas, maybe the first factor to look at, is the number of detectors to be produced.
                  1each - first tested prototype.
                  10each - field testing prototype.
                  100each - market exploration.
                  1000each - first production run.
                  This is just an example. It takes some work to make a realistic projection.
                  All this needs to be financed. This, we need to look up right from the start. NO MONEY, NO HONEY. We do not want to get stuck up the creek without a paddle, holding our design, that has cost us a lot of hard work in the hand like a White Elephant. Ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!
                  Tinkerer
                  I disabled pm in my cp.
                  Email is my_nick_here at gmail.com

                  Don't bother yourself thinking on TGSL (look bellow in post scriptum).
                  ...
                  Ergonomics? Stem?
                  Any special suggestions or any conventional will do?
                  There are original stems to be bought on market so i think there is no need to bother and make own ones.
                  Considering what have you said earlier; i think 12V gell cell accus would be perfect choice.
                  Those are lasting long and there is very easy to way replace them on the field and charge them later.
                  Especially if IB detector is used with current drain in range 40-80mA with such gell cell accu.
                  Coils with connector? So you think one type of coil will not be sufficient?
                  Ok, not a problem.
                  Considering repairment on the field; good idea is to project compact pcb with durable pcb connectors and than to offer additonal pcb's as accessory.
                  So if coil,cable and accu are ok than would be easy to replace only pcb on the field and continue prospecting.
                  I already have very good and many times proven project which will very nice fit in most of the demands you noted.
                  However, it will need certain adaptations because of the "waterproof" nature that it must have.
                  Most important at that project is: it is not strictly tied to own type of coil (no, it is not IGSL too).
                  Few original coils from different manufacturers can be used with it.
                  Other words; it will be much more easier for overall calculations and it will make overall job less "painful", because coil making is one pretty annoying and trivial job.
                  So; stems and coils can be obtained directly from the market.
                  Accus and chargers, even a solar ones (under $50 each) too.
                  So we can further focus only on detector itself and it's enclosure.
                  ...
                  Yes market is most important. If you have such demands which will for sure cover least 50 to 100 pcs production than whole story is making sense.
                  And if you cover more than 100 pcs... well that's very nice season job!
                  Cheers!



                  P.S.
                  TGSL and IGSL are in huge percentage direct copies of genuine Tesoro design.
                  Therefore i don't think is good idea to count them in something man can do as commercial project for selling legally on market.
                  Ok, those are quite alright to be used here as forum open projects among hobbyists.
                  But that's all. Not for making business on them.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    For production of 50, 100 and more pcs it is much smarter and cheaper to use parts which are already present on market and made by somebody else.
                    I tried to establish my own small production in the past.
                    And as Carl stated somewhere, something like: "why bothering and wasting precious time on making something trivial, just let others to do that for you!"
                    And that's a truth! I experienced that on my own skin.
                    So many hours, days,weeks... wasted on potting coils, bending Al pipes, solving most trivial problems.. for what?
                    For what money? Trust me: for NOTHING!
                    As an example:


                    http://www.metaldetectorshop.co.uk/s...ings/c_22.html

                    http://www.metaldetectorshop.co.uk/s...s/p_61375.html

                    http://www.metaldetectorshop.co.uk/s...gers/c_33.html

                    http://www.kellycodetectors.com/acce...son_shafts.htm

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Waterproof enclosures:

                      http://www.rolec-enclosures.co.uk/products/aluface.htm

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ivconic View Post
                        I disabled pm in my cp.
                        Email is my_nick_here at gmail.com

                        Don't bother yourself thinking on TGSL (look bellow in post scriptum).
                        ...
                        Ergonomics? Stem?
                        Any special suggestions or any conventional will do?
                        There are original stems to be bought on market so i think there is no need to bother and make own ones.
                        Considering what have you said earlier; i think 12V gell cell accus would be perfect choice.
                        Those are lasting long and there is very easy to way replace them on the field and charge them later.
                        Especially if IB detector is used with current drain in range 40-80mA with such gell cell accu.
                        Coils with connector? So you think one type of coil will not be sufficient?
                        Ok, not a problem.
                        Considering repairment on the field; good idea is to project compact pcb with durable pcb connectors and than to offer additonal pcb's as accessory.
                        So if coil,cable and accu are ok than would be easy to replace only pcb on the field and continue prospecting.
                        I already have very good and many times proven project which will very nice fit in most of the demands you noted.
                        However, it will need certain adaptations because of the "waterproof" nature that it must have.
                        Most important at that project is: it is not strictly tied to own type of coil (no, it is not IGSL too).
                        Few original coils from different manufacturers can be used with it.
                        Other words; it will be much more easier for overall calculations and it will make overall job less "painful", because coil making is one pretty annoying and trivial job.
                        So; stems and coils can be obtained directly from the market.
                        Accus and chargers, even a solar ones (under $50 each) too.
                        So we can further focus only on detector itself and it's enclosure.
                        ...
                        Yes market is most important. If you have such demands which will for sure cover least 50 to 100 pcs production than whole story is making sense.
                        And if you cover more than 100 pcs... well that's very nice season job!
                        Cheers!



                        P.S.
                        TGSL and IGSL are in huge percentage direct copies of genuine Tesoro design.
                        Therefore i don't think is good idea to count them in something man can do as commercial project for selling legally on market.
                        Ok, those are quite alright to be used here as forum open projects among hobbyists.
                        But that's all. Not for making business on them.

                        OK, let's take a step back.

                        I am just talking generics here. What I mean with TGSL is a generic VLF. In fact, I don't know at this point if we should talk about VLF or PI.

                        Or maybe we should think of a generic style detector where one could exchange the coil and electronics boards and it would be either a VLF or a PI?

                        We are just taking a quick glimpse at an idea that Carl put on the table.

                        In fact, we should first ask Carl a few more questions. For example, if he thinks there could be a demand for a humanitarian de-mining detector, why do the large manufacturers not build one?
                        I think the answer is that the state of the world economy is not encouraging investment in new products right now, but anyway, let him answer the question, if it does not infringe with his job.

                        Thinking of de-mining.... isn't your country one that suffered a war not too long ago? Have all the mines left behind during the war been cleared?

                        Now think of the third world countries, like Angola, Mozambique, Cambodia, where there are millions of mines littering the country side and claiming hundreds of innocent victims every year.
                        Would an affordable easy to use de-mining detector make a difference?

                        Tinkerer

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by ivconic View Post
                          For production of 50, 100 and more pcs it is much smarter and cheaper to use parts which are already present on market and made by somebody else.
                          I tried to establish my own small production in the past.
                          And as Carl stated somewhere, something like: "why bothering and wasting precious time on making something trivial, just let others to do that for you!"
                          And that's a truth! I experienced that on my own skin.
                          So many hours, days,weeks... wasted on potting coils, bending Al pipes, solving most trivial problems.. for what?
                          For what money? Trust me: for NOTHING!
                          As an example:


                          http://www.metaldetectorshop.co.uk/s...ings/c_22.html

                          http://www.metaldetectorshop.co.uk/s...s/p_61375.html

                          http://www.metaldetectorshop.co.uk/s...gers/c_33.html

                          http://www.kellycodetectors.com/acce...son_shafts.htm
                          I agree 100%.

                          In my title I speak of designing and marketing. No mention of manufacturing.

                          Of course, when designing, one needs to think of manufacturing too, but why wanting to produce every single part? Buy what is available and make good choices. Have the PCB's made and populated in the country that offers the best quality at the best price.

                          We are living in a world with a global economy.

                          Tinkerer

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Tinkerer View Post
                            OK, let's take a step back.

                            I am just talking generics here. What I mean with TGSL is a generic VLF. In fact, I don't know at this point if we should talk about VLF or PI.

                            Or maybe we should think of a generic style detector where one could exchange the coil and electronics boards and it would be either a VLF or a PI?

                            We are just taking a quick glimpse at an idea that Carl put on the table.

                            In fact, we should first ask Carl a few more questions. For example, if he thinks there could be a demand for a humanitarian de-mining detector, why do the large manufacturers not build one?
                            I think the answer is that the state of the world economy is not encouraging investment in new products right now, but anyway, let him answer the question, if it does not infringe with his job.

                            Thinking of de-mining.... isn't your country one that suffered a war not too long ago? Have all the mines left behind during the war been cleared?

                            Now think of the third world countries, like Angola, Mozambique, Cambodia, where there are millions of mines littering the country side and claiming hundreds of innocent victims every year.
                            Would an affordable easy to use de-mining detector make a difference?

                            Tinkerer
                            Ok, i understand.
                            I think there are highly specialized manufacturers for such detectors and technology involved.
                            Also; to make useful de-mining detector, first we will have to be able to get all the necessary infos and data on existing mines, at the first place.
                            Exact, precisely infos on material and alloys used in manufacturing them.
                            You will agree that such infos are considered as top military secret.
                            I guess there is very special agreement to be signed with state government and military structures to be able to get any info and also to be allowed even to think on manufacturing such technology.
                            I don't expect nobody here to talk open and freely on such matters.
                            Also i assume such "relations" are way over "jurisdictions" and senses of one ordinary ee employee.
                            So i think is better if we focus on things we can be able to do, instead.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ivconic View Post
                              Solid enclosures. Good first choice.

                              How do the prices and quality compare with products from China?

                              We must at all times keep the eye on the cost, because it is maybe THE most important factor.

                              Tinkerer

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ivconic View Post
                                Ok, i understand.
                                I think there are highly specialized manufacturers for such detectors and technology involved.
                                Also; to make useful de-mining detector, first we will have to be able to get all the necessary infos and data on existing mines, at the first place.
                                Exact, precisely infos on material and alloys used in manufacturing them.
                                You will agree that such infos are considered as top military secret.
                                I guess there is very special agreement to be signed with state government and military structures to be able to get any info and also to be allowed even to think on manufacturing such technology.
                                I don't expect nobody here to talk open and freely on such matters.
                                Also i assume such "relations" are way over "jurisdictions" and senses of one ordinary ee employee.
                                So i think is better if we focus on things we can be able to do, instead.

                                Actually there is a lot of information available.

                                Maybe we could convince Carl to open a repository where we could upload the information that we can find on Google, so that it is easily available for all interested parts?

                                Tinkerer

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X