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  • Designing and marketing new metal detectors.

    Some time ago, I started a thread, "A huge market for metal detectors"

    Googling a few hours, this seemed to be a real possibility. There are about 2,000,000 gold diggers worldwide, who make their living digging for gold with their (nearly) bare hands. Although I never dug gold myself, I did spend some time digging for diamonds, so I do have a little knowledge of how such things work.

    These 2,000,000 gold diggers have a few rudimentary tools and with a lot of sweat and hardship manage to extract 1 or 2 grams of gold per day, to just survive.

    In many of the gold diggers areas, metal detectors could be used. Big market it would seem. A metal detector could be bought for a few day's work, it would seem.

    Once I took a closer look at the problem, I found that "not all that glitters is gold".

    There is actually no market. Or, such a small market that it is not worthwhile to consider it.

    Why?

    Is there a commercial metal detector available that could do the job?

    Would a new MD design, specially designed for this job, have a market?

    What would the design parameters need to be to find this market?

    Market is demand. Why is there no demand for a professional gold digger detector?

    Or, looking at the manufacturing angle:

    Where should we build the detector?

    Which area in the large world should be the first marketing target?

    Tinkerer

  • #2
    There is [COLOR="Red"] attributes in thread title and that's what confused me not to spot it on my first search!
    Maybe Admins can correct that?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ivconic View Post
      There is [COLOR="Red"] attributes in thread title and that's what confused me not to spot it on my first search!
      Maybe Admins can correct that?
      Yes I copied and pasted and can not edit it in the title.

      Will the administration please delete the "color"

      Tinkerer

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tinkerer View Post
        Some time ago, I started a thread, "A huge market for metal detectors"

        Googling a few hours, this seemed to be a real possibility. There are about 2,000,000 gold diggers worldwide, who make their living digging for gold with their (nearly) bare hands. Although I never dug gold myself, I did spend some time digging for diamonds, so I do have a little knowledge of how such things work.

        These 2,000,000 gold diggers have a few rudimentary tools and with a lot of sweat and hardship manage to extract 1 or 2 grams of gold per day, to just survive.

        In many of the gold diggers areas, metal detectors could be used. Big market it would seem. A metal detector could be bought for a few day's work, it would seem.

        Once I took a closer look at the problem, I found that "not all that glitters is gold".

        There is actually no market. Or, such a small market that it is not worthwhile to consider it.

        Why?

        Is there a commercial metal detector available that could do the job?

        Would a new MD design, specially designed for this job, have a market?

        What would the design parameters need to be to find this market?

        Market is demand. Why is there no demand for a professional gold digger detector?

        Or, looking at the manufacturing angle:

        Where should we build the detector?

        Which area in the large world should be the first marketing target?

        Tinkerer
        I can talk only about situation in my country and probably can comprise few neighbor countries too.
        Yes, fact is that there is huge number of gold prospectors, maybe more than anticipated.
        Along with prospectors there is even bigger number of relic hunters and coinshooters. Majority of those are weekend hobbyists.
        I am talking mostly about small Balkan countries here. Those represent, as usually named : third party markets. Especially for stock like md stuff is.
        I am relic hunter and coinshooter for 25 years. I do remember those hard days back in '80, when it was "art" to obtain descent machine from abroad.
        That's exactly why i entered in a "Homebrew & DIY" world of metal detectors, somewhen in middle '90.
        Otherwise, if there were local dealers with full legal customer services at the time - i would never ever think on diy'ing any kind of metal detecting device.
        Why would i? For what reason?
        But like i said, than there were no dealers and customer services and shameful is that situation never actually changed, even nowdays!
        Last year i see few individual attempts to change that situation, by starting from zero.
        Like i mentioned; XP appeared recently here through one dealer. That's where i bought Deus.
        But isn't it to late? For dealing business?
        Because situation has changed in last 25 years.
        Hundreds and hundreds of detectors are already "imported" (smuggled) here.
        Dozen local diy'ers already appeared offering various: Bliss, Wave, G.Mask, Proton, Bandito etc...etc..etc..
        So i think it is much better to think on forming and starting local manufacturing department by some "Fat fish" than to think in direction only to have a dealer.
        Similar to what is already done in Ireland and Scotland (Minelab and White's).
        Of course, once such department exist; it is a piece of cake to cover surrounding territory with dealers and shops.
        Along with that is very easy and practical to offer full customer support and services.
        What would be advantages of such move?
        As third party country with weak economy; this country (implies to all neighbors too) is having a huge number of unemployed yet well educated experts.
        Meaning exactly : cheap jobs!
        Cheap jobs, cheaper material, cheaper production, lower taxes and very interesting and potent local market (it is sort of paradox; poor economy yet potent market for such stock, funny but very true!).
        Why so paradoxical? Because these territories are exactly located on most interesting and richest soil relating to ancient sites and very rich and turbulent history.
        As we may say that Australia is well known (in our md world) by nugget hunting, with same criteria we also may say that these areas should be very well know by ancient Roman sites, Byzant sites and medieval sites too. As well as prehistoric sites too (celtic and illirians) .
        Therefore, after even a skim analyze; we will see actually no paradox in fact that local people are very ready to spend even last money for md equipment in hopes that such equipment will provide them some profit.
        This also indicates the category of such customers and their targeting (by price mostly) stock. That's why most expensive equipment is not so easy to sell here.
        ...

        Comment


        • #5
          As i said on other thread; Carl summarized these aspects and factors very well in one single post:
          ...
          3. Wanting complete control. This is a combination of 1 & 2. The development of a new metal detector is not a one-man job, especially if it's your first one. Think you want to also manufacture the detector? This is a purt-near-guaranteed failing proposition. The turf is littered with dead metal detector companies.
          ...

          4. Focus on the things that matter the most. Performance is #1. A talking detector is #1000. When you have the level of performance that will definitely sell, STOP THE DESIGN PROCESS and move on to making it producible. You'll get to implement that Next Great Idea in Version 2.

          5. Forget about building detectors. Ain't gonna happen, at least on a scale that will pay the rent. Find someone else to do that. Again, someone who knows how. Also lets you move on to Version 2, which is more fun than potting coils all day.

          7. Respect the competition. Like it or not, they are already successful, have lots of satisfied users, and are making lots of money. Focus on beating them with a better product, not with public displays of contempt. And never ever ever criticize a user of a competitor's product. That's one lost sale, or more.

          Comment


          • #6
            Also on other thread i said i am giving up. Yes, after many years with strong enthusiasm i had and lot of hopes and dreams... must say that this year finally i decided to give up.
            I am not giving up from hobby, searching and relaxing in nature, no way!
            I am giving up from making and dealing with metal detectors, finally.
            Also i am giving up of any plans and hopes that may include involving some big manufacturer to be attracted to come here and spread the business.
            Seems they are very happy with what they already got and seems they don't need additional markets at all.
            If so; than why bother any more?
            I bought Deus, am happy with it and that's pretty end of my story.
            Cheers!

            Comment


            • #7
              From other thread:

              Originally posted by WM6 View Post
              Fully agree. But what is then problem? No competitive MD design? Yes, this can be a big problem.

              Competitive MD design can sell itself.

              I am afraid this is not the rule.
              This is partially true.
              We can see so many cases where not so good machines already made huge market success - while also few obviously splendid designs never actually made it on market.
              Along with competitive md design, there are lot of side factors which will decide about it's market success.

              Comment


              • #8
                Tinkerer,

                what you CONCRETELY offer? there was a man wishing to buy Hammerhead from me. I asked $80 for soldered PCB with a coil. I do not see him FROM THE TIME

                [COLOR="Black"] is the DEAL you mean? is it the HUGE MARKET?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kt315 View Post
                  Tinkerer,

                  what you CONCRETELY offer? there was a man wishing to buy Hammerhead from me. I asked $80 for soldered PCB with a coil. I do not see him FROM THE TIME

                  is the DEAL you mean? is it the HUGE MARKET?


                  Yes KT315, that's pretty often my story too!
                  ...
                  You know why is like that?
                  Because of mentality.
                  If you offered some "original" (even a last crap from market) than be sure you will sell it much easier than you can sell "hand made".
                  Local rednecks are having same mentality as any other redneck on planet.
                  That's exactly another of very important reasons why i am giving up... (can't stand so many local rednecks and their "rednecking" mentality! )

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    MENATALITY -> Customer mentality -> MD customer mentality!

                    MD customer mentality is something so specific and different, that we may freely pronounce it as very special PHENOMENA! (not kidding at all)
                    Maybe this phenomena deserves separate thread, but i will put it here because it correlates indeed very close to main subject here.

                    Like i said in previous post: rednecks are rednecks everywhere on planet.
                    They want ALL for NOTHING.
                    They will rather waste enormous sums of money on something labeled as "original", produced by anybody from everywhere - than to spend reasonable low sum buying something descent enough, yet labeled as "hand made", "diy" , "homebrew"...etc..etc...
                    I should know this very good; because i spent decade and more dealing with this human category!
                    Statistics (my and from my nearest colleagues) are showing something like: 95% rednecks and only 5% open mind customers.
                    Even worse; there is huge percentage of rednecks which will rather buy even a "hand made" - NOT from local diy'er, but from; as much distant as possible one.
                    Huge percentage of rednecks will very easy fall on lies and nonsense adverts made by very distant "meisters" and their agents and proponents.
                    But when comes to the trusting to nearest local diyer - no way! Everything "our" is always much worse than anything that comes from distant and "abroad".
                    So much about md customer mentality!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tinkerer View Post
                      Yes I copied and pasted and can not edit it in the title.

                      Will the administration please delete the "color"

                      Tinkerer
                      Done.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So Tinkerer, if you want to closely analyze "Designing and marketing new metal detectors" problems: you should also comprise analyzes of targeting customers categories.
                        Better targeted product - higher chances to success !
                        (as an example: seems Minelab is only targeting customers with deep pockets lately!)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          More details on mentality and Minelab (perfect example here)!
                          Let's take new CTX3030 as an very illustrative example here.
                          I think Minelab is having very smart marketing approach and i will try to explain it.
                          CTX is nice yet nothing especial, so it seems.
                          Also is not looking so expensive for producing in huge series.
                          All the inputs hardly to overcome $1000! No way! I bet those are even under $600!
                          Yet it's price is 2500e !!!!!
                          Why?
                          Let me try to answer on this question.
                          We already have beast called Deus on market, right?
                          Will you accept that or not - fact is that XP indeed rocked world market with their latest models like GMP, Gmaxx and lately Deus.
                          Yet Deus is 1400e (more or less).
                          So... assuming if Minelab pronounced it's new CTX3030 with a starting price as 1400e and less - i bet
                          huge majority of potential customers will be slightly disappointed in advance!
                          Because of MENTALITY!
                          But now, having price at 2500e and more! Wow! Huge majority of possible customers will be intrigued much in advance!
                          Huge majority of those will be very tempted only by thinking on that price.
                          Even if later turns that CTX is no better than Deus - nobody can persuade those ever again in that, once they spent their money on it!
                          I know this all is only my plain assumption, of course.
                          I do apologize (to Minelab and XP) for manipulating so lightly with assumptions and false facts, but i only used this funny story as very illustrative example to point on very important factor as is MENTALITY!
                          So... is not only important to have competitive detector!
                          Many other very important factors too and among them targeted customer mentality maybe on first place!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tinkerer View Post
                            There are about 2,000,000 gold diggers worldwide, who make their living digging for gold with their (nearly) bare hands.
                            I'll bet there are a whole lot more than 2M. However, a lot of those are digging nearly gold dust, stuff that a detector won't detect. Still, there is a huge market for gold detectors, as shown by the explosion of gold detector sales.

                            The (apparent) fact that Minelab is selling gobs of 4500's into 3rd World countries at a steep price suggests that a high price is not necessarily a barrier. Whether it's popular because of performance or mystique is a good question. The former suggests that a good performer at a lower price would succeed. The latter suggests that price & performance won't close the deal.

                            In any case, anyone wanting to design/produce a new metal detector should probably focus on a niche market where they can command a high price. Blisstool seems to have hit it about right. Lorenz and PulseStar, too. A solid GPX competitor at about half the price would probably work. I've always thought a sub-$1000 consumer-grade (non-military) mine detector would also do well, assuming you can deal with the liability issue.

                            - Carl

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Iterative Design

                              I would like to throw my ideas into the mix of thoughts on this thread. See this link to get some background about iterative design: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iterative_design.

                              Metal detector design has been historically an iterative process, not for specific models but for the general evolution of metal detectors going from hardware-based designs to being more software-based.

                              The physical footprint including size, weight, power use, and user implemented features is highly dependent on the constraints of what can be comfortably carried on a stick or hung on one's body. Power consumption detemines how long the batteries will last in the field, typically being a minimum of about 8 hours. Given the recent advances in L-ion batteries and software driven designs it makes a realistic goal of making a universal PI design with only software upgrades to minimize hardware changes that makes machines obsolete.

                              I am going to throw out a design objective that with current technology can be achieved. I would like the feedback from the many thinking and technically competant people on this forum.

                              Here it goes!

                              Design Objective

                              Using a software-based PI metal detector, with a visual/audio user interface, removable storage media (such as a SD memory card) and LCD screen, create a PI machine that allows the user to analyze the ground, the speed of the coil sweep, optimization damping of various search coils to match the optimum adjustable TX and RX parameters of (1) TX pulse length, (2) sampling delay, (3) number and time of sampling points on the target decay curve, (4) ground balance, (5) external interference reduction, (6) earth magnetic field reduction, (7) probable target identification.

                              I see the use of motion sensors in the PI control box or remotely located lower on the coil shaft to analyse the end of each swing to help allow the operator maintain the optimum search speed. The removable memory cards should allow ground curves to be stored, indexed and later analyzed to optimize PI performance and sharing among a community of users. The PI TX and RX settings should be overlayed on the each stored curve along with an index number that allows the user to keep field notes identifying where each sample was taken. Different target responses could also be taken and stored on each ground sample.

                              Example: highly mineralized soil is highly sensitive to the TX pulse length. By allowing users to see the effect of altering the TX pulse on the particular ground location they are searching, by using a sample of the target types sought, an optimum set of PI TX and RX parameters could be found, stored and shared. In addition, various coil types and sized could be tried and verified for the optimum performance in a sepecific location.

                              By allowing users of this new breed of PI machines to be linked on the Internet on forums such a Geotech, the evolution of the PI design will be software refinement and parameter adjustment to select the best set of TX and RX PI parameters, coil types and sizes for a particular location. Features such as screen blanking while searching will save power only turning on the screen when a target is located or when the user presses a screen activation button.

                              I applaud the efforts of Dave Emery (Pulse Devil) and Howard Rockey (QED) for their single-handed attempts to build a better "beeper".

                              I do not see a final PI machine evolving quickly as there are many practical business decisions that need consideration to get something out the door and make the kind of profit that can sustain the iterative design process over enough years that what I described above can be achieved.

                              I believe that commercial PI manufactures, such as White's, may also be considering something similar to what I propose as what I propose is capable of being done now, but fitting it all into a portable footprint with size, weight and power consumption constraints may need to wait for some custom ASEC chips and commercially available modules. I even see a PI module that uses an I-Phone, an I-Pad or something similar for the computer processing power being connected to this external PI module doing everything I described above to minimize redundent computer development that is currently available off-the-shelf.

                              Are the features that I have outlined above needed, desireable or practical? Is there a better set of design alternatives?

                              Joseph Rogowski
                              AKA: bbsailor

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