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  #1751  
Old 10-06-2017, 05:55 PM
kaligula kaligula is offline
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I don't know what to say. Today I was at terrain and test the Franco Italy lrl and pdk a13. Pdk is not registring nothing. Franco Italy lrl at north is registering compass effect. At west there were big transmition line, and is registering and them. At place where is supposed to has buried big target is not registering nothing


https://image.ibb.co/izTsDw/dalekovo...1220112343.jpg
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  #1752  
Old 10-06-2017, 07:59 PM
kaligula kaligula is offline
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But what if on appearance of phenomenon signal voltage goes down. Few times I
though that something is wrong with my battery connector because the display is going off at 4,2 volts at the point of supposed target
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  #1753  
Old 10-07-2017, 09:42 AM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaligula View Post
But what if on appearance of phenomenon signal voltage goes down. Few times I
though that something is wrong with my battery connector because the display is going off at 4,2 volts at the point of supposed target
"supposed target" it is not the best test, you have to bury for example silver objects in a land free from metals, best first pass with the metal detector. After 1 month or more the phenomenon is noticeable.
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  #1754  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:35 AM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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Thank you Mr.Carl-NC for registering me on longrangelocators.com.

Hello Mr.FrancoItaly and all.

I was reading this FrancoItaly's thread from the first page and i have decided to try my luck.
I wish to replicate Mr.FrancoItaly's long range locator based on HEF4046 pll ic.

Please, Mr.FrancoItaly send me your pcb for pll 4046 lrl.
A am asking this simply because nobody succeed to make accurate 4046 pcb which work including Mr.Geo from Greece, which also has failed to tune his 4046 pll. I repeat Mr.FrancoItaly's words that "at output of preamplifier stage in that point "X" , exactly at collector of TR4, there need to be perfect sinus wave, not distorted sinus or any other forms".

Pleae Mr.Franco send me pcb here, or via email and please tell me how to tune your 4046 pll from fisrt step till the end, and test it on my test polygon where i have some silver and golden targets at 30 cm deep, about two years ago placed there.

my email is
boem987@gmail.com

Sincerely
Dubulumach
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  #1755  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:57 AM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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I was attaching here original FrancoItaly's pictures HEF4046 PLL-LRL, lrl schematic, coil antenna and parts list.

FrancoItaly: "At the time I did only test on the test but Rubin with my Lrl revealed a buried copper plate from 25 years to a depth of 60 cm to 4 m in South/North direction and 2.5 m in East/West direction.
Best Regards"

Please Mr.FrancoItaly I need this PCB drawing, precise soldering side view, for making your HEF4046 pll-lrl.


Front view, complete Mr.FrancoItaly lrl.


HEF4046 pll-lrl schematic


FrancoItaly original wounded coil antenna 70 windings.


Zoomed view to windings of coil antenna.


PARTS LIST:

19 Resistors

R1=R11=R14=R16 = 1M
R2 = 1K
R3=R4=R5 = 3.3K
R6 = 150K
R7 = 680K
R8 = 1K
R9=R10 = 68K
R12 = 6.8K
R13=R17 = 4.7K
R15=R18 = 1K
R19 = 330 ohm

3 Variable resistors

P1 = 100K trimmer - Freq.
P2 = 1k trimmer - Mixer.
P3 = 22K potentiometer - Threshold.

16 Capacitors

C1=C17 = 100nF
C2 = 68pF
C3 = 3.3nF
C4=C5=C6=C7 = 1.5nF
C8=C9 = 1pF
C10=C13=C15 = 560pF
C11 = 22pF
C12=C14 = 22nF
C16 = 100 microfarad - 25V

4 Transistors and 2 ICs

IC1 = CD4046 OR HEF4046
IC2 = LM358
TR1 = BC170A or equivalent with low β < or = 100. β = Ic/Ib (ratio of collector current to base current).
TR2=TR3=TR4 = BC183C or equivalent with very high β = 700 or higher.

One LED diode
DL1 = Red Led
_____________

Best Regards
Dubulumach
boem987@gmail.com
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  #1756  
Old 10-11-2017, 09:54 AM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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I'm sorry but I do not have the pcb of CD4046 version, I modified the 8Mhz version to try to get a sort of discrimination by comparing the phase and amplitude variations. I recommend making the 8Mhz version because it is simpler to accomplish and has the same performance. I also recommend the stylus antenna with respect to the coil antenna possibly connecting 3 stylus antennas together.

Best Regards
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  #1757  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:03 AM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancoItaly View Post
I'm sorry but I do not have the pcb of CD4046 version, I modified the 8Mhz version to try to get a sort of discrimination by comparing the phase and amplitude variations. I recommend making the 8Mhz version because it is simpler to accomplish and has the same performance. I also recommend the stylus antenna with respect to the coil antenna possibly connecting 3 stylus antennas together.

Best Regards
Most of the time I'm not in Italy and I have not kept the design of the pcb, very often drawing the tracks directly on the pcb. I want to remind you that the sensor stage is made up of a high gain amplifier that can easily oscillate, so it may be best to separate this stage from that of the CD4046 if you choose this solution.
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  #1758  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:26 PM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancoItaly View Post
I'm sorry but I do not have the pcb of CD4046 version, I modified the 8Mhz version to try to get a sort of discrimination by comparing the phase and amplitude variations. I recommend making the 8Mhz version because it is simpler to accomplish and has the same performance. I also recommend the stylus antenna with respect to the coil antenna possibly connecting 3 stylus antennas together.

Best Regards
Thank you Mr.FrancoItaly.

I have already unshakeable decided to make your HEF4046 PLL-LRL version and i hope i will be lucky hands. I take responsibility for inform you about my LRL experience with your PLL-LRL.

Mr.FrancoItaly help me please to precise identify all components you had placed at top side of PCB. I wll do the best i can to redraw your original layout from the soldering side. With your help (and other good fellows here), I think i will be lucky and I will make correct and very accurate HEF4046 pcb.


Please watch picture and mark all components one by one at top side of pcb, you think is valid. Than i will using your original pll schematic attached above make soldering side tracks and joints, and together we can try to redesign your pll version and publish all data for further builders.

I have all i need to make your HEF4046 PLL-LRL project working and testing. Also please give me instructions how to tune this PLL version, what tune first, what middle, what at the end after soldering all components.

I remind you i already have test polygon with some silver and golden targets at 30 cm deep soil in home frontyard, 2 years old and i hope signals are good according to your words.

If you wish, help me make this project running, because i know HEF4046 possible discrimination targets by comparing the phase and amplitude variations of the phenomenon signal is best and the most precise way for long range location.

I also have oscilloscope 2x 20MHz with all equipment i need to easy tune this build. If you think i should shield high gain amplifier that can easily oscillate, please let me know. Also let me know your adjustment tricks. This device could design only very, very experienced e.engineer and very experienced LRL man, like you are Mr.FrancoItaly.

Thanks again for your best HEF4046 PLL-LRL project on this site and good luck. And i wish you many golden coins in your Italian treasury.

Best Regards
Dubulumach
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  #1759  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:01 PM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancoItaly View Post
The sensor stage: For display stage I suggest the 3 leds version and change P2 from 470K to 1M and R1 from 150K to 56K, P1 from 22k to 4.7K and add 2 x 8.2K resistances, one from +12V and P1 and the other from ground and P1. The purpose is to make more easy the threshold operation but depending on the output value of the sensor stage you have to change the 8.2K resistances, i.e 10k/6.8K or 15k/4.7k or others.
FrancoItaly does this simple teardown, worth also for HEF4046 PLL-LRL version or only for your 8Mhz quartz version ?



Question:
1. Does R2 should be increased from 220K to 470K, 560k, 680k or even 1M or not ?
2. Does C1 should be increased from 22nF to upper value 47nF, 100nF, 470nF or need stay the same value or maybe less ?

ps Dubulumach:
If there is inversion signal problem with output from HEF4046 (leg 2 on schematic above), could be solved easy by puting NPN transistor BC183C in emmiter-follower configuration and inverted signal by 180 degrees, picked directly from low impendance emiter transistor's leg in single joint point with 1st low pass filter stage R3-C4, and after the LF filter to non inverting input (plus sign) of LM358.

I think putting additional amplifier with transistor T5 as BC183C in high gain amplifier stage, could give more amplification and easy the job of HEF4046 ic - phase and amlitude measurement.

Mr.FrancoItaly what do you mean about my little tips ?

Sincerely
Dubulumach
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  #1760  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:15 PM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubulumach View Post
FrancoItaly does this simple teardown, worth also for HEF4046 PLL-LRL version or only for your 8Mhz quartz version ?



Question: Does R2 should be increased from 220K to 470K, 560k, 680k or even 1M or not ?
Does C1 should be increased from 22nF to upper value 47nF, 100nF, 470nF or need stay the same value or maybe less ?

Sincerely
Dubulumach
This is for 8Mhz and for CD4046 version, R2=220K and P2=1M, C1 is no critic but high values (220nF or 470nF) could slow down the search, I think 47nF is the optimal value.
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  #1761  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:18 PM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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Thank you FrancoItaly.

Integrator stage is critical for correct speed response.

Would you like to help me to identify all components from your 4046 PLL-LRL picture attached above in my pre-previous post ?

And one personal question: What do you think about PDK version 2,3,4 from Mr.Morgan from Portugal ? His PDK worth 5K pound (sterling) building and tuning or not ?


Sincerely
Dubulumach
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  #1762  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:28 PM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubulumach View Post
FrancoItaly does this simple teardown, worth also for HEF4046 PLL-LRL version or only for your 8Mhz quartz version ?



Question:
1. Does R2 should be increased from 220K to 470K, 560k, 680k or even 1M or not ?
2. Does C1 should be increased from 22nF to upper value 47nF, 100nF, 470nF or need stay the same value or maybe less ?

ps Dubulumach:
If there is inversion signal problem with output from HEF4046 (leg 2 on schematic above), could be solved easy by puting NPN transistor BC183C in emmiter-follower configuration and inverted signal by 180 degrees, picked directly from low impendance emiter transistor's leg in single joint point with 1st low pass filter stage R3-C4, and after the LF filter to non inverting input (plus sign) of LM358.

I think putting additional amplifier with transistor T5 as BC183C in high gain amplifier stage, could give more amplification and easy the job of HEF4046 ic - phase and amlitude measurement.

Mr.FrancoItaly what do you mean about my little tips ?

Sincerely
Dubulumach
As I said I'm not in Italy and for at least a month I will not come back and still stay a few days. The lrl CD4046 version is also in Italy in my lab and I do not like the reverse engineering (also of my project), also because I did it several years ago and I remember very little about that project. I suggest you make the printed circuit for the 8Mhz version with the exclusion of the oscillator part (double face pcb with bottom face connected to ground) and on another PCB the part related to the CD4046 and make connections with shielded cable.
I'm not familiar PDK, several years ago I built but without success.
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  #1763  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:30 PM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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Thank you FrancoItaly.

BTW - "Lrl from Italy" is the best topic on http://www.longrangelocators.com, imho. Good example of Italian engineering.

Best regards
Dubulumach
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  #1764  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:38 PM
HaFar2010 HaFar2010 is offline
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Hello
Dear Franco
I joined this thread recently. I want to build your LRL, please share its PCb and etc.

Thanks.
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  #1765  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:48 PM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubulumach View Post
Thank you FrancoItaly.

BTW - "Lrl from Italy" is the best topic on http://www.longrangelocators.com, imho. Good example of Italian engineering.

Best regards
Dubulumach
Thank you for your compliments. I want to remind all new members that the "phenomenon" is still a mystery not recognized by "official" science and that it does not seem to behave the same way in various countries around the world. Even in Greece there are those who managed to make it work and who did not succeed. It is necessary to say that for metals shortly buried the intensity of the phenomenon is weak and it is sufficient to adjust the threshold for a sensitivity just below the maximum that the signal disappears. That is why it is important to calibrate the lrl for maximum sensitivity before the self-oscillation.
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  #1766  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:57 PM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaFar2010 View Post
Hello
Dear Franco
I joined this thread recently. I want to build your LRL, please share its PCb and etc.

Thanks.
look this:

http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...postcount=1742

This is all the material, the only PCB is that related to the sensor stage and is the most critical one, the other PCBs can be made in several ways. I work in the old and I do not use the PC to make schemas and PCBs, almost always drawing directly on copper, so I have no drawings of other PCBs.
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  #1767  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:05 PM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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FrancoItaly, Thank you for your valuable informations.

Does anybody here know what "the phenomenon" exactly is ? , and how LRL man should behave in strong "phenomenon field" ?
I have heard from the different sources, that in the nights of full moon, there are colorful "fire tongues" rising from the depths of underground where the old treasures had been hidden. Some people called it "the COLD FIRE phenomenon"

Please, good fellows here, share with us new LRL novices about your practical experiences. And of course instructions and tips how to find and detect "phenomenon".

Thanks
Dubulumach
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  #1768  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:07 PM
kaligula kaligula is offline
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Franco, does will change something if I put for example 4 mhz oscillator at the place of 8 mhz or there will not be big difference in catching phenomenon?
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  #1769  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:13 PM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaligula View Post
Franco, does will change something if I put for example 4 mhz oscillator at the place of 8 mhz or there will not be big difference in catching phenomenon?
I tried 3-4-5-6-8 and 10Mhz quartz and all work well.
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  #1770  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:24 PM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancoItaly View Post
I tried 3-4-5-6-8 and 10Mhz quartz and all work well.
Does it mean that "phenomenon" is not frequency dependent ?

What about the gold frequency 60kHz-70khZ ? How is it related with HF quartz oscillations ?

Best regards
Dubulumach
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  #1771  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:32 PM
kaligula kaligula is offline
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I need something like this up to 100 khz to see whats going on

https://image.ibb.co/bKLciw/Screensh...1_18_29_55.png
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  #1772  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:55 AM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubulumach View Post
Does it mean that "phenomenon" is not frequency dependent ?

What about the gold frequency 60kHz-70khZ ? How is it related with HF quartz oscillations ?

Best regards
Dubulumach
I don't think that there is a direct connection between phenomenon and quartz frequency.
I'm also not sure there is a frequency or band of frequencies related to gold. I think the phenomenon can interfere with a wide range of frequencies, from VLF to infrared. My lrl receives signals in the bandwidth of 100Mhz but I do not think there is a transmitter that transmits on this frequency, otherwise pointing it in the direction of the broadcaster would be a strong signal, which does not happen. However, if there are transmitters or repeaters in the vicinity, the lrl is practically unusable. In large lines this is the operation of my lrl (I refer to quartz version):
a small part of the signal from TR1 is amplified by TR2, TR3 and TR4, D1 and D2, TR5 make the signal continuous. the phenomenon is received from the antenna and applied to TR2, the heart of lrl. Mixing occurs here, somehow the signal coming from the oscillator is increased as amplitude and this results in an increase in the output signal. The signal from the oscillator to the base of TR2 partially goes to ground through C9 and C10 (and also L1). In the presence of the phenomenon, the signal that goes to mass decreses and then increases that is amplified by the transistor.
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  #1773  
Old 10-15-2017, 08:47 AM
Dubulumach Dubulumach is offline
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thank you Francoitaly

Yes, if your words are truth, than "the phenomenon", should be some kind of noble metal noise, beacuse it has very wide range of frequencies, from VLF to infrared, and maybe much much higher.

My questions for you FrancoItaly

How did you connected two side antennas, to main lrl telescopic-whip antenna ?


Whay you didn't used very high gain, very high impendance, darlington structure from two bc183c, with 10Meg biasing resistor to catch very tiny phenomenon signal at input.



M thinking, tell me that the Monocrystalline Silicon Crystal was directly responsible, for detecting tiny phenomenon from gold, silver and other precious metals. I think it is directly proportional with volume of silicon. Biger Monocrystalline Silicon Crystal, should give better detection of phenomenon, because there is greater number of phenomenon particles interacting in same unit of time in volume of Monocrystalline Silico. This imply that we must use many bc183c hf transistor in parallel, to increase effective volume of detection area.



How to find gold, with your LRL, FrancoItaly ? Any tips welcomed ?

Thanks
Dubulumach
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  #1774  
Old 10-15-2017, 09:48 AM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubulumach View Post
thank you Francoitaly

Yes, if your words are truth, than "the phenomenon", should be some kind of noble metal noise, beacuse it has very wide range of frequencies, from VLF to infrared, and maybe much much higher.

My questions for you FrancoItaly

How did you connected two side antennas, to main lrl telescopic-whip antenna ?


Whay you didn't used very high gain, very high impendance, darlington structure from two bc183c, with 10Meg biasing resistor to catch very tiny phenomenon signal at input.



M thinking, tell me that the Monocrystalline Silicon Crystal was directly responsible, for detecting tiny phenomenon from gold, silver and other precious metals. I think it is directly proportional with volume of silicon. Biger Monocrystalline Silicon Crystal, should give better detection of phenomenon, because there is greater number of phenomenon particles interacting in same unit of time in volume of Monocrystalline Silico. This imply that we must use many bc183c hf transistor in parallel, to increase effective volume of detection area.



How to find gold, with your LRL, FrancoItaly ? Any tips welcomed ?

Thanks
Dubulumach

Yes the 3 antenna are connected together, as regards the use of more BC183 in parallel it's an idea to try.
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  #1775  
Old 10-15-2017, 09:52 AM
FrancoItaly FrancoItaly is offline
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Unfortunately I have little experience in the search for gold.
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