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    Hi Tinker
    Have you a completed metal detector project made up yet using your latest IB/PI design as im itching to get started, dont want SMD just the bog standard.
    Ive been following all your threads but not technical enough to put it all together.
    If its not complete can you guide me where to make the start and then can go from there.
    Many many thanks for your hard work it has to be the most interesting project on here todate.

    Kind regards

  • #2
    Originally posted by satdaveuk View Post
    Hi Tinker
    Have you a completed metal detector project made up yet using your latest IB/PI design as im itching to get started, dont want SMD just the bog standard.
    Ive been following all your threads but not technical enough to put it all together.
    If its not complete can you guide me where to make the start and then can go from there.
    Many many thanks for your hard work it has to be the most interesting project on here todate.

    Kind regards
    I will be glad to help in any way I can.

    Tinkerer

    Comment


    • #3
      Tinkerer,

      Can you see the results of your work on a project on you tube?



      Regards

      Comment


      • #4
        When it is final? And then, just a theory and practical design no. Search for nothing ... Just read on ...

        Comment


        • #5
          Finished project

          Satdaveuk,

          I have no use for a finished metal detector myself, but I enjoy tinkering with the design of metal detectors, always trying to improve the performance.

          The Tinkerers_V1 is about complete, but it's parts are scattered over several threads, we would have to look for the last version of each part and join them together. It worked fine in the lab, but I did not make any real field tests.

          I learned a lot during the design of the Tinkerers_V1. Now I am applying this knowledge in a more recent and advanced design.
          In the meantime, MOODZ has also released the UNIPI. The UNIPI is an advanced, PI, programmed dspPIC, I think MOODZ is also giving away for free, the programming code.

          Anyway, MOODZ was so kind of sending me an UNIPI and that is what I use now for the timing.

          So, please tell me about your design goals:

          What do you want to use the detector for? The design will need to be different for relic hunting than for nugget hunting.

          There seems to be a continuous interest in a very deep reaching detector. To reach really deep, the coil needs to be large. Such detectors often use coils of 1m x 1m square. I prefer round myself, but the difference is not important.

          With traditional PI detectors the large diameter coils have little sensitivity to small targets, like a hammered silver coil of 2cm diameter.

          We could put together a detector that can overcome this limit. This might be quite a popular success.

          A simple, yet advanced design.

          Through hole, easy to find non expensive parts.

          What else would be on your wish list?

          Should we make a poll to find out what the popular wishes might be?

          Tinkerer

          Comment


          • #6
            There are a lot of useful information. Done a great job. And do not get the full project. How to make a diagram of these modules, I do not know. Advise please. Nuggets have gone, and the historical findings we have are interesting. It would be nice to see a complete and workable design. Thank you in advance.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tinkerer View Post
              Satdaveuk,

              I have no use for a finished metal detector myself, but I enjoy tinkering with the design of metal detectors, always trying to improve the performance.

              The Tinkerers_V1 is about complete, but it's parts are scattered over several threads, we would have to look for the last version of each part and join them together. It worked fine in the lab, but I did not make any real field tests.

              I learned a lot during the design of the Tinkerers_V1. Now I am applying this knowledge in a more recent and advanced design.
              In the meantime, MOODZ has also released the UNIPI. The UNIPI is an advanced, PI, programmed dspPIC, I think MOODZ is also giving away for free, the programming code.

              Anyway, MOODZ was so kind of sending me an UNIPI and that is what I use now for the timing.

              So, please tell me about your design goals:

              What do you want to use the detector for? The design will need to be different for relic hunting than for nugget hunting.

              There seems to be a continuous interest in a very deep reaching detector. To reach really deep, the coil needs to be large. Such detectors often use coils of 1m x 1m square. I prefer round myself, but the difference is not important.

              With traditional PI detectors the large diameter coils have little sensitivity to small targets, like a hammered silver coil of 2cm diameter.

              We could put together a detector that can overcome this limit. This might be quite a popular success.

              A simple, yet advanced design.

              Through hole, easy to find non expensive parts.

              What else would be on your wish list?

              Should we make a poll to find out what the popular wishes might be?

              Tinkerer
              Hi Tinkerer
              Firstly would like to say a big thank you to yourself, Moodz and others that have gave input to this project both in research and design, not a easy task by far as im sure everyone here and within the manufacturing industrie would agree.
              The goals we are after is the same as they have been since metal detecting began, which is deeper with more reliable discrimination.
              Air testing is one thing, which is it proves a detector is working and indeed discriminating in the air, but thats really where it ends.
              Another thread that was started here by yourself, correct me if im wrong, was headed the perfect ground balance, include a good ground filtering circuit, if we Crack that one then everything else should quickly come into place because thats where the problem lies as you all well know.
              Ive been following your threads since they began and cant wait to construct your latest designes to try in the real world with the soils we have here in the uk.
              Theres not such a problem with beach detecting quoting a good example would be the Whites DFX although working well on pasture land compared to many other makes and models, soon as you hit beach wether it be wet sand or dry it works like a totaly different machine far as depth and discrimination, its near perfect as ive seen, which of course goes back to ground filtering which inturn effects discrimination and depth.
              In my opinion with the typical designes of PI/IB machines theres little hope for improvement the way they stand and thats why im so interested in your new design which could end up been the way to go for many years to come, however it remains to be seen, but of course we need to think positive
              You asked what im after in a metal detector, well if I want to greedy the answer is through hole construction which makes it easy for those of us who construct are own PCBs, parts that are not to exspensive but take into account we are not cutting corners which will effect the performance, hex files that can be flashed to the chips for people like me with little knowledge of programing, nothing too heavy on the battery life.

              My main detecting time is spent on plough and pasture relic hunting, normally only disciminate out iron, the rest I dig.

              I think after what you said Tinkerer that after tieing up a few loose ends your design is ready and certainly worth constructing.
              Is this equipment going to be made modular or on one main PCB board, or are you still thinking about it?
              All the best and thanks again

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by smity View Post
                When it is final? And then, just a theory and practical design no. Search for nothing ... Just read on ...
                Smity,

                you ask when the design is going to be final.
                Well, here is the honest answer: NEVER
                I will always try to improve it, make it more perfect. There is no end to that. EVER.

                Tinkerer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Maybe it would be a good idea to assign your designs some version numbers so that people can hang on to something.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    TINKERERS_TEM_IB-PI

                    Originally posted by satdaveuk View Post
                    Hi Tinkerer
                    Firstly would like to say a big thank you to yourself, Moodz and others that have gave input to this project both in research and design, not a easy task by far as im sure everyone here and within the manufacturing industrie would agree.
                    The goals we are after is the same as they have been since metal detecting began, which is deeper with more reliable discrimination.
                    Air testing is one thing, which is it proves a detector is working and indeed discriminating in the air, but thats really where it ends.
                    Another thread that was started here by yourself, correct me if im wrong, was headed the perfect ground balance, include a good ground filtering circuit, if we Crack that one then everything else should quickly come into place because thats where the problem lies as you all well know.
                    Ive been following your threads since they began and cant wait to construct your latest designes to try in the real world with the soils we have here in the uk.
                    Theres not such a problem with beach detecting quoting a good example would be the Whites DFX although working well on pasture land compared to many other makes and models, soon as you hit beach wether it be wet sand or dry it works like a totaly different machine far as depth and discrimination, its near perfect as ive seen, which of course goes back to ground filtering which inturn effects discrimination and depth.
                    In my opinion with the typical designes of PI/IB machines theres little hope for improvement the way they stand and thats why im so interested in your new design which could end up been the way to go for many years to come, however it remains to be seen, but of course we need to think positive
                    You asked what im after in a metal detector, well if I want to greedy the answer is through hole construction which makes it easy for those of us who construct are own PCBs, parts that are not to exspensive but take into account we are not cutting corners which will effect the performance, hex files that can be flashed to the chips for people like me with little knowledge of programing, nothing too heavy on the battery life.

                    My main detecting time is spent on plough and pasture relic hunting, normally only disciminate out iron, the rest I dig.

                    I think after what you said Tinkerer that after tieing up a few loose ends your design is ready and certainly worth constructing.
                    Is this equipment going to be made modular or on one main PCB board, or are you still thinking about it?
                    All the best and thanks again
                    Thanks for the feedback.

                    Let's see if we can agree on some of the parameters.
                    I think we can achieve the following:

                    Maximum power consumption..................................... 30 Watt
                    Maximum design detection depth................................. 1 meter
                    Maximum pulse repetition rate per second, PPS...............10,000
                    Maximum coil diameter.......................................... ......1 meter
                    FE recognition at full depth
                    Capable of working in adverse ground conditions
                    Motion type detector
                    Fast response

                    Now you add the minimums and other parameters that are important to you.

                    FOR EVERYBODY INTERESTED IN THE PROJECT:

                    This is an OPEN SOURCE PROJECT you are free to build and experiment with it. If you want to use the information for commercial use, please contact me, I will be glad to come to an easy arrangement.

                    We are starting this project now.
                    Give your input now, it will be difficult to make changes once many people are already involved.

                    Tinkerer

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Id say they are very good perameters to go for, you say one meter depth that will discriminate i presume that would be something the size of a jerry can if buried in typical soil with medium iron content, would be good if we can hit a old pre 1947 silver sixpenny bit at around 12" which would show as silver, or a medium size gold ring at anything above 9" would be nice.

                      Regards

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by satdaveuk View Post
                        Id say they are very good perameters to go for, you say one meter depth that will discriminate i presume that would be something the size of a jerry can if buried in typical soil with medium iron content, would be good if we can hit a old pre 1947 silver sixpenny bit at around 12" which would show as silver, or a medium size gold ring at anything above 9" would be nice.

                        Regards
                        What are the dimensions of an old six penny? At present, PI detectors do not indicate any specific metal. Only ferrous or non ferrous.

                        As far a sensitivity, the 1 meter square coil has no difficulties at all, of locating a coca-cola can at 1.5m depth.
                        However, I think you are more interested in small hammered silver coins, so I suggest we make the first coil only 1m x 0.5m, rectangular. This will be for medium depth.

                        Depth comes with a price. Power and size of the coil.
                        With this size coil, we need to look at the ergonomics right from the start.

                        So why don't we start with building the coil?

                        Tinkerer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tinkerer View Post
                          What are the dimensions of an old six penny? At present, PI detectors do not indicate any specific metal. Only ferrous or non ferrous.

                          As far a sensitivity, the 1 meter square coil has no difficulties at all, of locating a coca-cola can at 1.5m depth.
                          However, I think you are more interested in small hammered silver coins, so I suggest we make the first coil only 1m x 0.5m, rectangular. This will be for medium depth.

                          Depth comes with a price. Power and size of the coil.
                          With this size coil, we need to look at the ergonomics right from the start.

                          So why don't we start with building the coil?

                          Tinkerer
                          The old pre47 sixpence is 50% silver pre1920 92.5% silver after that there was no silver so anywhere around that time should be similar to a hammered silver coin.
                          Far as where to start, the coil is as good as place as anywhere although would be nice to see a full circuit diagram with pcb to have a peep at to see where we are going.
                          Regards

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Davor View Post
                            Maybe it would be a good idea to assign your designs some version numbers so that people can hang on to something.
                            Good idea.

                            So this new design goes under the name TINKERERS_TEM_IB-PI.
                            It is a detector designed for searching the open fields, for relics and coins that lie deeper than other detectors can locate.

                            Tinkerer

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by satdaveuk View Post
                              The old pre47 sixpence is 50% silver pre1920 92.5% silver after that there was no silver so anywhere around that time should be similar to a hammered silver coin.
                              Far as where to start, the coil is as good as place as anywhere although would be nice to see a full circuit diagram with pcb to have a peep at to see where we are going.
                              Regards
                              The size, or surface area presented to the coil plays an important role in the detectability of the targets.
                              To search deep, we want a large coil. Large coils are inherently less sensitive to small targets.
                              To get the best compromise, we need to balance the minimum target size with the maximum depth.

                              A circuit diagram with PCB.

                              I design my PCB's for bench testing. This is not exactly the same as putting the design into a box, to be used in the field. For example, the pots on a box are not the same as the trimpots on the PCB. Changes need to be made.

                              The same happens with SMD opamps and such. Many modern advanced technology opamps are simply not manufactured in through hole shape.
                              For example, the ADG5434, Analog switch, that I am using at present, only comes in 20 lead TSSOP package. Very tiny and a pain to solder and delicate to make the thin traces on the PCB. The same goes for many excellent opamps. I use the AD8626 in SOT8, does the job real well. Is it available in DIP8? I don't know. Need to look it up.

                              Is this the only way? No, there are good parts available in DIP packages. We can very well design the boards to use only through hole parts. But the board design is different.

                              The parts need to be searched and researched. A lot of reading and comparing of data-sheets.

                              Then comes the box.

                              Above, we talk about a maximum power consumption of 30W. 30W in Kilo calories that need to be dissipated. No problem in a cool climate. But what about that hot day in the sun?

                              I once bought a top class magnetometer from a Canadian company. 30,000 US$. Supposedly good to be used anywhere in the world. When I tried to run it in a tropical country, it run 10 minutes and then flipped out for overheating.
                              The advice from the manufacturer was to use a fan to blow on it or air conditioning. Yeah, do that in an open boat out on the ocean.

                              So, yes, we need to design the detector and the box, so that they fit together, not only in size, also in power dissipation.

                              Ah, about size. There are some fair size capacitors. The TX is running off them. We recycle the TX power, running the current from the capacitor bank through the coil and back again. The battery only supplies the resistive and switching losses.
                              Capacitors come in different shapes. With no space restrictions, we can use any kind. Inside a box, we need to consider the space. Once we decide on the shape of the capacitor, we can see how we place it on the PCB and how large the box needs to be for the PCB.

                              Should I go on? No, I think we have all understood that if we want to see a finished design, we all have to help to get it done.

                              Of course, "we all" is still another problem. "We all" have to agree on each aspect of the full design.

                              Can we agree on that?

                              Tinkerer

                              Comment

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