Coils for LRL

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

www.trifield.com

Hi Mike(Mont),
The only air ion meter I see on that page is the Alpha Lab Standard 2 million ions/cm3 version. This meter works by sucking an air sample in and measuring ions, then displaying the ion count in ions per cc of air (or other gas). The range selections are to 2 million, 20 million, and 200 million ions/cc. http://www.trifield.com/content/air-ion-counter/

We also see in the instructions it has a 20-foot ground cord to connect to earth ground before allowing the meter to stabilize for positive or negative ion reading of one of the three ion density scales. Then the fan is switched on in the sampling mode which draws an air sample in the top, and discharges it out the bottom during the measuring operation. http://www.trifield.com/content/AIC-Instructions/

This seems a bit more sophisticated than the home-built ion detectors I read about that are built around a high impedance amplifier connected to an antenna that is pointed in the direction of suspected ions.
I presume it also gives ion readings that are more accurate.

Two questions that come to mind are:
1. What readings did you see in ions/cc, from minimum to maximum when you found the peak while tuning your loop antenna?
2. Were the ions you measured positive or negative?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

I certainly never claimed my results to be "scientific". I had the meter set on negative ions, don't even recall if I zeroed it first, don't think I did. Didn't ground it , either. Had the air intake close to the capacitor probably a couple inches max. There was definitely a time lag as I adjusted the cap. The readings were around 700 until it would spike over 1000 just a very narrow bandwidth. Ran the tuner back and forth several times just to be relatively certain it wasn't some fluke. I see they make antenna analyzers that can find the resonant frequency of the antenna, but I just used an AM radio to see where the antenna had been tuned. BTW, I could feel it when the antenna was tuned to that station.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

BTW, I could feel it when the antenna was tuned to that station.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

I certainly never claimed my results to be "scientific". I had the meter set on negative ions, don't even recall if I zeroed it first, don't think I did. Didn't ground it , either. Had the air intake close to the capacitor probably a couple inches max. There was definitely a time lag as I adjusted the cap. The readings were around 700 until it would spike over 1000 just a very narrow bandwidth. Ran the tuner back and forth several times just to be relatively certain it wasn't some fluke. I see they make antenna analyzers that can find the resonant frequency of the antenna, but I just used an AM radio to see where the antenna had been tuned. BTW, I could feel it when the antenna was tuned to that station.

Hi Mike(Mont),

Of course this was not a scientific test. For one, we have no idea of how the electronics inside this meter "counts" ions, or what it was calibrated to, or if it is still in calibration. And from what you posted, you did not have the meter grounded, and probably not zeroed. I wonder if a calibrated meter that was zeroed and grounded would find the same peak when you tune the coil. My guess is we would probably see a similar peak, but with different readings. (This is assuming the electronics in the meter you used actually counts ions, not simply detects electric fields).

Even though it is not a scientific test, the readings you took do provide some evidence of a change in the meter reading that seems to be repeatable when you tune the coil. This makes me wonder what is causing the change in readings, and it raises some interesting questions. According to the meter literature, this meter takes measurements in air that is drawn into the internal measuring circuit -- so it is not a simple static charge detector that can go haywire at the slightest movement of where it is held and pointed.


So what caused the air to give readings of negative ions?

Has the ion content of the air actually changed due to the coil being tuned to a resonant frequency?
Maybe an RF carrier wave at the tuned frequency has something to do with it?
Did the ungrounded meter respond differently than if it was grounded?
Could the internal meter circuit be effected by nearby receiver circuits, even if the ion content of the air does not change?

It would be interesting to see a circuit diagram of how this meter counts ions. This would give some insight into the answers to these questions. If we could establish that the ion content of the air actually does change around a tuned receiver coil, it may provide some evidence to support Esteban's theories of "ions in the air" that he says he detects with his experimental coils.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

A capacitor is ion seperation. The way a tuned loop works is the energy is captured by the coil and a charge builds up on one side of the capacitor. Then since the other side of the cap has an imbalance the charge flows back through the coil to the other side of the capacitor and if it's tuned it will continue to resonate as the capacitor acts like a spring. I would think it shouldn't really matter which polarity of ions you are measuring because both are present.

The whole point of this discussion is that the human body can act like a tuned antenna. The body has some capacitance, and if you hold your arms out there is going to be a slight amount of energy that flows through the air from one hand to the other. So if you think of your hands as the vanes on a capacitor, the ions are right there. Comprende?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

A capacitor is ion seperation. The way a tuned loop works is the energy is captured by the coil and a charge builds up on one side of the capacitor. Then since the other side of the cap has an imbalance the charge flows back through the coil to the other side of the capacitor and if it's tuned it will continue to resonate as the capacitor acts like a spring. I would think it shouldn't really matter which polarity of ions you are measuring because both are present.

The whole point of this discussion is that the human body can act like a tuned antenna. The body has some capacitance, and if you hold your arms out there is going to be a slight amount of energy that flows through the air from one hand to the other. So if you think of your hands as the vanes on a capacitor, the ions are right there. Comprende?

Sure, it's easy enough to understand what you're saying, but this does not explain anything about measuring free airborne ions that are sucked from the air into a meter that is said to count them.

Generally, ions are known to result from very high voltages present in a gas, or from a source of nuclear radiation, and from chemical reactions -- but not from a loop antenna. While a capacitor can contain a charge imbalance between the plates, this imbalance is contained within the conductors, and does not cause the surrounding gas or dust particles in the air to become charged unless there is a very high voltage on the capacitor plates while they are in contact with the air.
...Which brings us back to the questions that came to mind when you described measuring an ion count peak as you adjusted your capacitor:

Has the ion content of the air actually changed due to the coil being tuned to a resonant frequency?
Maybe an RF carrier wave at the tuned frequency has something to do with it?
Did the ungrounded meter respond differently than if it was grounded?
Could the internal meter circuit be effected by nearby receiver circuits, even if the ion content of the air does not change?

And one new question:
Does this particular meter actually count ions -- or is this only what the literature says?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

Again, you seem to have totally missed to point. The ions are at the capacitor, not the coil. This is the same sensation I get when I am on the signal line from a frequency generator when my body is in resonance. You believe the Air Ion Counter does not count ions in the air?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

Again, you seem to have totally missed to point. The ions are at the capacitor, not the coil. This is the same sensation I get when I am on the signal line from a frequency generator when my body is in resonance. You believe the Air Ion Counter does not count ions in the air?

Hi Mike(Mont),
I doubt I missed your point.
You have been alleging that ions are at the capacitor plates, and that you can "feel" them as well as measure the ion count in the air peaking when you adjust the capacitor. Your point seems to be there are ions in the air near the capacitor that increase when the capacitor is adjusted.

I agree the capacitor plates charge and discharge during a cycle where tiny currents are oscillating through the coil to the capacitor.
Your inference which you can't explain is how a passive loop with a capacitor can cause ions to form in the air near the capacitor.
The point is a non-powered loop with a capacitor does not emit ions into the air, and the question is centered around what your meter measured.

Let's review again:
Airborne ions are formed in significant amounts under the following conditions:
1. High voltage in the air, ie: lightning storm, ion generator, Tesla coil, electrostatic air cleaner, cathode ray tube, etc.
2. Related to high voltage is friction, ie: dust storm (wind friction) can cause ions to form in the air, Van de Graff generator, rub shoes on carpet during low humidity, etc.
3. Radiation penetrating the air, ie: Alpha particle, proton from decayed atom, radon gas in the air, cosmic rays, etc.
4. High heat, ie: volcano, forest fire, stove top, foundry, ceramic kiln, etc.


Your explanation is "The ions are at the capacitor, not the coil".

Airborne ions?
According to your non-grounded and non-zeroed meter measurements, yes.
Your proof is the peak you saw on this non-grounded and non-zeroed ion counter meter when you adjusted the capacitor at a certain point.

But wait...
Let's see what the people who sell this meter have to say about the ions you count with their meter: http://www.trifield.com/content/about-air-ions/
"Ions cannot be produced without an energy source. An "energy source" means, heat or flame, radioactivity, frictional rubbing, electricity, evaporation (which is a heat process), etc. Minerals that are not radioactive do not spontaneously emit ions. Normal fair-weather ion concentrations are 200 to 800 negative and 250 to 1500 positive ions per cubic centimeter. Indoor levels are usually lower. Several hours before a storm, + ion concentration will increase dramatically, sometimes exceeding 5000 ions per cubic centimeter (cm3). During a storm, - ions increase to several thousand while + ions decrease, often to below 500".

The producers of this meter seem to agree with the classical concept of how ions are produced. It seems they also think ions are only produced when a high amount of energy is present to cause ions to form from high voltage, temperature, friction, or radiation. They do not talk about ions produced when you adjust a capacitor on a passive loop. They also have a full page explaining the need for grounding and zeroing the meter as well as some other precautions that are necessary to prevent false readings: http://www.trifield.com/content/AIC-Instructions/
-----

However, you posted a link which (I presume) explains why the passive loop antenna with a capacitor also produces ions in the air: http://amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html
I have read that entire page several times, but I can't seem to find the part about where the passive coil/capacitor produces airborne ions.
He talks about how you could get some high voltages from a resonant loop/cap circuit only in theory, not in practice.
He says we can only expect a tiny amount of power unless impossible conditions can be created:
"Note: the above phenomenon can only occur for an ideal LC circuit, where the resistance of the coil is zero and where the Q of the circuit is infinite".

Basically, he is explaining his version of how a passive loop can improve reception and perform as if it were be a larger antenna, maybe up to the performance of a 1/4 wave dipole if you connected it to a lot of power.
His references to receiving high voltage are theoretical concepts that do not appear in the real world unless you could arrive at an infinite Q with a superconducting coil. He tells us:
"Just as we might expect, everything here is similar to a conventional radio antenna. The weak e-field from the incoming EM waves behaves only as a "signal", and it is not a source of significant power. It can't drive a motor or light an LED".

He also talks about the rather limited application of these loops that increase the "effective antenna size".
"Keep in mind that this device is a relatively small affair sitting in your back yard. It's not a 1KHz quarter-wave dipole tower 25 miles tall. There's no huge antenna, so we would not expect to find any huge level of electric power appearing in the circuit".

He says not to expect any high voltage in your back yard loops, but I don't see anywhere he shows how this backyard loop at can generate ions into the air.

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

You believe the Air Ion Counter does not count ions in the air?

I don't know what to believe about this meter. I guess I can believe you did not ground it or zero it before you took readings. I guess I can believe you saw a peak when you were turning the capacitor.
Maybe it can count ions, but was not used properly to count them?
Maybe the meter you used does not count ions?
I don't know.

According to what is known about airborne ions, there is no reason why they should appear as a result of adjusting the capacitor on a backyard passive loop.
That is why these questions still come to mind:

1. Has the ion content of the air actually changed due to the coil being tuned to a resonant frequency?
2. Maybe an RF carrier wave at the tuned frequency has something to do with it?
3. Did the ungrounded meter respond differently than if it was grounded?
4. Could the internal meter circuit be effected by nearby receiver circuits, even if the ion content of the air does not change?
5. Does this particular meter actually count ions -- or is this only what the literature says?

Do you have an explanation how a passive loop and capacitor produce ions in the air?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

http://amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html

[Mike(Mont)]

I finally got the air-core coil wound yesterday. Anyone who has ever wound a coil knows what I went through for a learning curve! First step I would suggest is to wind your wire onto a bigger spool. I used an old bicycle tire rim without spokes, etc. AFTER I tried to wind it from the small spool. The wire gets pinched into the other spool wires, and it's a huge hassle. Once I used the tire rim things went MUCH smoother. More later.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

I finally got the air-core coil wound yesterday. Anyone who has ever wound a coil knows what I went through for a learning curve! First step I would suggest is to wind your wire onto a bigger spool. I used an old bicycle tire rim without spokes, etc. AFTER I tried to wind it from the small spool. The wire gets pinched into the other spool wires, and it's a huge hassle. Once I used the tire rim things went MUCH smoother. More later.

Was that a 26 or a 27" rim?

[Mike(Mont)]

I must admit this air-core coil is very fragile. For starters, I used just a pound or so pull on the wire as I did the winding and now I realize the 1" x 2" wood frame is just barely adequate. Stiffer wire (thicker) is going to have even more strain on the frame. And the thin wires are so delicate, I'm glad I didn't go any thinner for the first time project. Anyway from what I take the thin wire is okay for lower frequencies.

So what I did was to turn on the frequency generator, tune the coil for peak voltage, then use uA meter and look for anomolies. Also I tuned frequency started at 59.5 KHz and went up until I found something the coil liked.

Would I suggest anyone build this project? No way! You should have seen the mess I had on the first attempt. I had half the wire on after a couple hours and numerous tangles of the wire on the small spool when i realized the first few turns were slack. So I tried to tighten them and they just started to fall off the frame. Then everything got tangled. So after untangling and winding a large part back on another small spool I finally realized that I needed to wind the wire on the bike rim first.

[Mike(Mont)]

Been messing with the coil in my yard (near power lines). Not really sure much about anything. I hooked up a frequency counter to it and had to get near to the transmitter before it was pulled off the 60Hz reading to the tuned frequency 59.5K in this case. So I realize the transmitter antenna is not supposed to work like a typical radio antenna (tuned).

When measuring microamps the meter reading will smoothly increase as I approach the power lines, but when there is a signal line it is like there is a slight delay --the meter will flatten then jump to catch up to where it was headed. It almost feels like the signal line is pulled along a couple feet or so as I walk through it. So I wonder if the coil is picking up some capacitance or whatever from me (sort of like grabbing a TV antenna and changing the tuning). There's no doubt the power lines are the dominant force, but if there is an underlying frequency from the transmitter in the coil I don't know how to measure it. I need to get out away from the 60Hz and see what happens. Got more things to try out.

[Mike(Mont)]

I ordered another capacitor for the coil I built. No, I don't know what I'm doing and hope I don't hurt myself LOL. Anybody here worked with coil building/tuning the SLF or ELF frequencies? It seems to me if you don't much of a coil you need a big capacitor and that is not going to be easy to tune to an exact frequency.