Why wooden box is improper for LRL

[WM6]

Dowsers have a lot of trouble using LRL devices built in wooden boxes. Why?

Seems no one is, meet of those different difficulties, thinking of wooden boxes as possible sources of those problems.

Wooden boxes are great material for electronic boxes (like radios etc.) used inside in houses in relatively stable climate conditions.

But if you use high sensitive electronic incorporated in wooden boxes outside in very different climate conditions (temperature, relative humidity, mechanical stress, signal damping etc.) it is about quite another matter. Even more, those LRL electronic circuits not are only incorporated in electronic boxes, but are with very sensitive parts of circuits, as antennas, tank circuits etc., not so seldom in direct galvanic touch with wooden boxes. Yes, in direct galvanic touch with wood.

Considering only the hygroscopic properties of wood, which, taking it into changing climatic conditions, changing its conductivity, then we should not be surprised by the great whim in the operation of these creations.

I do not claim that those LRL results, using other materials, were much better than the current, which are null and void. But certainly these devices in a housing made of other materials, would act more stable and would not be so strange subject of sensitivity to different climatic conditions, such as in present wooden boxes.

Using wooden boxes for such outside devices are from electronic point of view in most cases a big mistake in design.

If you wish your LRL to work stable, one important thing is to avoid wooden design especially if your sensitive circuit is coming in direct galvanic touch with LRL housing or its wooden parts.


PS: I am easily go fatigued with English, so I hope that our excellent and very discernibile science-interpreter J_P will add some more in this matter.

[Geo]

Hi WM6.
Wooden boxes are better because are not sensitive to static.
But as you wrote are sensitive to moisture.
An Investment with varnish is a good solution.

[WM6]

Hi WM6.
Wooden boxes are better because are not sensitive to static.
But as you wrote are sensitive to moisture.
An Investment with varnish is a good solution.

Geo, good varnish is not wooden, varnish is synthetic substance, so if you paint your wooden box with varnish, it is no more wooden box regarding static electricity, but synthetic box, cause of its synthetic surface. It has static properties of varnish no of wood.

Another problem is that there is no varnish that can protect wooden box 100% from atmospheric impacts and relative humidity in air outside, so your synthetic painted wooden box is even worst than if you use pure antistatic-synthetic made box.

[Geo]

Geo, good varnish is not wooden, varnish is synthetic substance, so if you paint your wooden box with varnish, it is no more wooden box regarding static electricity, but synthetic box, cause of its synthetic surface.

Another problem is that there is no varnish that can protect wooden box 100% from atmospheric impacts and relative humidity in air, so your synthetic painted wooden box is even worst than if you use pure synthetic wooden box.

I have tried it with good results, especially at coil housings. I have not eratic signals..

[WM6]

I have tried it with good results, especially at coil housings. I have not eratic signals..

Sure if you paint with varnish, there is no more wood in contact with circuit.

Which devices are you speaking about? Static LRL or geomagnetic LRL sensor?

[J_Player]

Sure if you paint with varnish, there is no more wood in contact with circuit.

Which devices are you speaking about? Static LRL or geomagnetic LRL sensor?

The varnish and other paints that I see coated on wood LRL boxes is sometimes several coatings.
And many wood LRL boxes also have paint or varnish on the inside. But it is true, water vapor is a gas which can penetrate through small pores in the paint to enter the wood fibers and increase the humidity.
The increase in humidity will cause most wood fibers to expand a small amount to make small changes in the box dimensions, and can even cause the box to warp to slightly non-rectangular.
This happens when one side of the box is warm from the sun to drive away the humidity, and the other side is cooler to conserve the humidity in the fibers.

I would expect the only serious problem is when high impedance parts of a circuit are in contact with the wood or other partially conductive parts of the box.
Maybe this is part of the reason why we see several people who build the same project find different performance.

For the parts of a circuit which are lower impedance, I do not think there will be so much problem with circuit malfunctions due to leakage paths.
But there are definitely consequences for absorbing electromagnetic waves that could be significant at some frequencies and power levels.
It seems that it would depend on what kind of energy the transmitter is expected to pass through the box, and what kind of energy a receiver is expected to receive through the walls of the box.

I would think that it is important to consider what kind of signals you are sending and receiving in order to choose a good box material.
In some applications, maybe a metal box is best, but others may be better with plastic or wood fiber based enclosures.
A varnished cardboard box could even work if the material is strong enough.
Maybe a teflon box will have some use for special applications because it has good insulating properties, and does not pass moisture.


Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Another idea for LRL experimenters to think of is the variations that wood can make for some electrical circuits. When we are working with electrostatics, and with small electromagnetic signals, the conductivity of a wood box can work to cause anomalies in the air, or to block certain electrostatic fields. The same conductivity that we find with wood during high humidity can cause electromagnetic waves to become polarized because the electric component of a wave is shorted in the plane of the wood surface.

This can happen any time the wood has become conductive because of absorbing moisture, or for other reasons such as conductive paint. (Metal flake paint can have some degree of conductivity, and black paint with carbon pigment can be partially conductive).
If an electromagnetic wave becomes polarized, then the reception of this wave will be altered so it is not received in the same way as when the conductive wood is not present.
Of course, a metal box will have the same effect, and maybe stronger. Metal boxes are capable of completely blocking some kinds of signals.

But here is where we can find a problem:
If we have a wood box that can absorb moisture to become more wet or dry depending on the humidity and the temperature, then the conductivity of the wood can change to cause changes in the circuit performance which vary with the weather. This means the wood box can be the cause of a circuit to perform well in some weather conditions, then perform bad in other weather conditions.

If the conductivity of the wood is causing variations in the circuit performance, this could deceive the LRL user to believe that the weather is acting on the soil, or on the atmospheric electric charges, when the poor performance is really caused by the wood box. One way to test to see if the wood box is a problem is to change from wood to plastic during weather when the performance is bad. Then see if there is any improvement in performance. If we see bad performance in wood, then improvement in plastic, we know the box is part of the problem. Then when the weather is very warm and dry, we can change back to wood to see if the performance changes. If the performance does not change when you are using wood in warm, dry weather, then it will confirm the wood was causing a problem only when the weather was damp. In warm dry weather, the wood should work similar to plastic, But wood should perform more like a metal box when the humidity is high. For electrostatic circuits, a wood box may be a good thing because it will not easily collect a static charge. But be careful to keep the antenna circuits separated so they do not touch the wood.

We should remember that any RF that is broadcast from the box will be following near-field broadcast dynamics which are noticeably different than RF which has traveled many Km distance from a transmitter. You can expect a 90 degree phase angle in the RF that you send out, and if the supports for the broadcasting coil or the box behind it is partially conductive, then you can expect some of the wave to become polarized. We also expect the wave to become polarized vertically in the region where the wave penetrates the ground, if the ground is conductive.

Take a close look at some of the commercial LRLs. The materials near the broadcasting and receiving coils are intentionally made to be iron or hard-pressed wood fiber or circuit board materials. This was done for a reason.

When we see many different construction methods for experimental LRLs, I am not surprised to see people reporting different performance from the same circuit designs. The circuit design is only one part of the locator. The Tx and Rx antennas are another part which will perform much differently if they are not built and arranged the same.


Best wishes,
J_P

[goldfinder]

Metal box better

I have tried both. The metal box I find is better. The metal blocks extraneous radiation and protects the circuit which is sensitive to electrostatics. You can also put the base of the ES circuit, the ground, outside the box using it as an antenna ground plane. then make the antenna the collector for the ES.
Goldfinder

[J_Player]

I have tried both. The metal box I find is better. The metal blocks extraneous radiation and protects the circuit which is sensitive to electrostatics. You can also put the base of the ES circuit, the ground, outside the box using it as an antenna ground plane. then make the antenna the collector for the ES.
Goldfinder

Hi goldfinder,
It sound like you are using an electrostatic detector.
In this case, the materials and construction methods are very important.
It seems very few people have anything more than a basic idea of how electrostatics work in real world conditions.
With electrostatics we are working with electric fields that are basically static, capacitive signals, or could have some dynamic components which cause an anomaly where you hunt for treasure.
But if you put the same electrostatic circuit in several different enclosures with different antenna designs, you will find each of them responds differently to electric field anomalies.

I would also think that an electrostatic detector would work better with a metal box.
However, if it is a modified detector which uses an RF tuner, then the tiny RF anomalies will be strongly influenced by different box materials.
More importantly, the receiver antenna design will be more important than an electrostatic detector antenna is.
For an VLF tuner, the enclosure and the materials near the coil will have a lot to do with the performance of the coil.
Even passive conductors nearby will influence the reception of signals.
I would think in the cases of VLF receivers and transmitters, the antennas are best kept separated from the rest of the circuitry, much as we see in commercial radio installations where the transmitter parts are kept away from the antenna where possible.
We also see in some of the portable hand-held commercial transceivers that there are parts of the circuit which are shielded with metal foils to keep external energies from interfering with small signals.
Often we see even transceivers that are in metal boxes, which helps to keep stray energies from causing interference in the circuits.
But in the case of treasure locator LRLs, there may be times when the designer wants stray signals to impinge on the circuits inside the box.
However, I doubt any LRL experimenters will take these precautions except for a few who have some idea of how these signals work.


Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

I have tried both. The metal box I find is better. The metal blocks extraneous radiation and protects the circuit which is sensitive to electrostatics. You can also put the base of the ES circuit, the ground, outside the box using it as an antenna ground plane. then make the antenna the collector for the ES.
Goldfinder

If Rx coils are inside the box then metalic box is not good.
Original Alonso's PD has wooden box and plastic coil housing.
Yellow and red PD are all wooden. Mineoro PDc and FG are wooden.
Mineoro DCH has metalic box and plastic coil housing.
Etc......

[Fred]

The question is : do you seek stability ? i think the more stability we get, the worst the LRL seems to work.

[J_Player]

The question is : do you seek stability ? i think the more stability we get, the worst the LRL seems to work.

No,
Unstable circuits and lots of external noise is excellent.
Also internal noise from transistors and resistors is good too.
If possible, make sure you have a lot of loose internal wires connected to the high impedance circuits.
It helps if these loose wires bounce around and move while you are carrying the pistol through the treasure hunting field.
They can help you to cause beeps to come in locations where you normally would not detect anything.
Finally, don't forget to rub some of the substance that gold DNA produces on the circuit board -- it probably won't work unless you do.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Yes JP, your scientific observations confirms my thoughts.

I had the idea of a major improvement: Including special metal samples into the box like in the photo below...
You get outstanding results if the spheres are allowed to touch the copper side of the PCB. Of course in that case there is the possibility of the signal being so strong, that some transistor may burn, as it happened once in an incredible situation with the amazing Dr Hung, the target was a treasure so big and deep it was never found.

[J_Player]

Yes JP, your scientific observations confirms my thoughts.

I had the idea of a major improvement: Including special metal samples into the box like in the photo below...
You get outstanding results if the spheres are allowed to touch the copper side of the PCB. Of course in that case there is the possibility of the signal being so strong, that some transistor may burn, as it happened once in an incredible situation with the amazing Dr Hung, the target was a treasure so big and deep it was never found.

Hi Fred,
You may be wrong about it was never found.
There is a strong argument that it was found.
If you recall, the locator continued to work after the transistor was burned.
So the very big and deep treasure was definitely found.
But it is so incredibly dangerous to recover this treasure that it was left buried for the moment.
Can you imagine trying to remove boxes full of gold statues and bars from holes dug in the middle the streets of a big city?
It is good enough to know you located it.
... No need to be killed trying to recover it.


Best wishses,
J_P

p.s. The steel ball accessory seems like a good idea. Can they be sent stuck together in a pyramid shape?

[Fred]

Can you imagine trying to remove boxes full of gold statues and bars from holes dug in the middle the streets of a big city?
It is good enough to know you located it.
... No need to be killed trying to recover it.
Best wishses,
J_P

p.s. The steel ball accessory seems like a good idea. Can they be sent stuck together in a pyramid shape?

No the steel balls must be let free and able to roll in response of the ion wind blowing from gold.