Some consideration

[J_Player]

Hi J_Player,
Welcome back, you did a great job with theese posts. I can only add that no scientist has buried a piece of gold, he waited a few months and then made some measurements. Sounds very convincing work done by the bacteria but I'm not sure that their intervention is noticeable after a month or 2. What I think is very interesting and that struck me right from the start is the compass effect, that it can be studied without waiting for months or even years. I think the phenomenon is the result of a kind of modulation of the compass effect by the metal buried.
Best Regards

Hi Franco,
You are wrong. Frank Reith did.
He buried gold in soil that had gold-eating bacteria, then he waited a few months and then measured the gold ions that were dissolved.
And he also buried gold in soil that had no live gold-eating bacteria.
When he made his measurements, the original gold he buried was still in the ground, but part of it was dissolved.
But in the ground with no gold-eating bacteria, there was little or no dissolved gold measured.
You can read about his work for free.
He did not hide his work in a secret bunker, and he published reports about what he discovered in his experiments and his work.

Here is an exerpt from one of the many experiments he did with buried gold....
"...microcosm experiments with samples from the three sites were conducted. The microcosms with gold bearing soil or regolith materials were incubated field-fresh, (with a living microflora) vs. sterilised (with a dead microflora). Water logged soil and regolith microcosms were incubated under oxic and anoxic. Aliquots of the waters were taken over time (70-90 days) and analysed for gold. Field-fresh microcosms solubilisation of the gold occurred generally after 20-30 days of incubation. Up to 3 ppm of gold in solution was measured in experiments where gold had been added as gold pellets. In sterilized microcosms, very little or no gold was detected in the solution..."

The 3ppm of gold ions he measured 70-90 days later in this test is typical of what you might find in a treasure hunting field for long-time buried gold.
This particular test shows that the gold-eating microbes were very active during the 70-90 day period when the soil was wet.
He made many more experiments with gold he buried, and they are all free to read.

About what you think the phenomenon is and compass effect, you are wrong.
There is no "phenomenon". It was proven false by real science that showed the whole concept was wrong from the start.
I think there are many physical phenomena involved, not a false "The Phenomenon" as Alonso and Esteban tried to convince us to believe.
The compass effect I am not so sure of. I know that telluric currents usually flow in the same direction as the magnetic field lines, and both the magnetic field and telluric currents have fluctuations in their strength which might be confused to appear as modulation. Also, consider that the magnetic field is not horizontal unless you are measuring it near the equator. The direction of the magnetic field has a vertical inclination at most parts of the earth, which makes me wonder about the role of telluric currents, which do not show any vertical inclination.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

Pretty hard to beat the human body and an L-rod when it comes to receiving target information. I call the sensation I receive the "ion buzz". Many people describe it as a cool breeze which is the same sensation you receive when you place your hand near a negative ion generator.

The lines of force between the two fields (target and human) which many refer to as the "signal line" create a channel, sort of a magnetic highway.

The human brain is probably the biggest obstacle. It is extremely efficient at filtering out almost everything including background levels.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J_Player
We know that the phenomenon is very complex, bacteria have no doubt play an important role with regard to the gold and maybe could also act against the isotopes of gold, but what is known about the other metals (silver, copper, etc.)? Frank Reith made chemical / biological Measures on the ground but I do not think he measures changes in the magnetic field and electric field. Perhaps the scientist who most approached the understanding of the phenomenon was Louis Rota who also claimed that it was possible to "stimulate" a fresh buried metal buried such a way that it could be revealed at a distance.

Best Regards

[detectoman]

hello J_player, i´m very jealous by you return
hola J_playes yo estoy gustoso por tu retorno
ya me tenias preocupado, tal ves acabas de llegar de una larga luna de miel de dos años jajaj

[J_Player]

Hi J_Player
We know that the phenomenon is very complex, bacteria have no doubt play an important role with regard to the gold and maybe could also act against the isotopes of gold, but what is known about the other metals (silver, copper, etc.)? Frank Reith made chemical / biological Measures on the ground but I do not think he measures changes in the magnetic field and electric field. Perhaps the scientist who most approached the understanding of the phenomenon was Louis Rota who also claimed that it was possible to "stimulate" a fresh buried metal buried such a way that it could be revealed at a distance.

Best Regards

1. My understanding of the research that was done does not show any direct correlation of microbes acting against the isotopes of gold. The only stable isotope of gold is Au 196, so this is the one which is measured when using an isotope counter (gamma detector). The only role the microbes play in isotope detection is to disperse gold atoms so they will occupy a larger area and volume of soil where nuclides are more likely to collide with a gold particle and break loose an Au 196 isotope for you to measure. However, Gamma detectors for isotopes are not used for treasure hunting because of the physics of the phenomena that the scintillator measures. These kind of locator are proven very effective for locating deep ore bodies for gold, silver, copper, and many other metals as well as oil and kimberlite where diamonds are found. One of the biggest benefits of isotope detection is they will find anomalies for very deeply buried gold or other minerals - as deep as 5000 feet. But these gamma detectors are almost never used for treasure hunting, because most treasures are too small to compete with the much larger anomalies found for deeper gold and silver.

2. What is known about other metals?
Other metals including silver, copper, mercury, tin, manganese, magnesium lead, cadmium, aluminum, and nearly every other metal element known are consumed by microbes in similar ways to the microbes that consume gold. Most of these metals are dissolved by the same cyanide-secreting bacteria that attack gold. But some of these metals are attacked by microbes which use different mechanisms to corrode a metal, or to convert metal ions to metallic form, or to other compounds. This is a huge industry which is being researched and funded by many governments for the purpose of toxic waste management, to clean up soil that is contaminated with metal poisons. Some of these bacteria are even able to clean radioactive contamination from the soil by removing heavy radioactive metals or converting them to relatively safe compounds. Many of the metals which are not important to treasure hunters are very important in agricultural areas. The commercial branch of Frank Rieth's organization does millions of dollars of business measuring the metal ions in farmland soil, to help the farmers to know what minerals are deficient for the plants that they want to grow.

3. You are correct. Frank Rieth's work was not in the magnetic and electronic field. He was focused on the microbiology of the soil to try to learn what these microbes were doing to buried metals. His scope of work included the chemical conversions and electron exchanges as well as the biological mechanisms which caused these chemical conversions. The electrical and magnetic principles which are pertinent to these chemical changes in the soil have been documented for decades. Anyone who cares to read about magnetism and electrical properties of the soil will find this information easily available online, and even more detail available from the geology department of a major university. What Frank Rieth did was to provide the missing information of how gold ions enter the soil, and how they form columns of ions above a gold item that has been buried for long enough. Without his work, nobody would know to try applying known electrical/magnetic principles to exploit some of the secondary effects of this chemical reaction. Also consider, he measured the ion concentration of gold in the soil, and he mapped the location where the chemical action of converting ions to metal particles will happen, which has never been done before him. These are the final keys that any person who believes in electronics and magnetism can use to build a working long range locator. And those who believe in superstitions, and unproven science or principles that were previously proven wrong, will be quick to avoid the evidence and test results that were produced by Frank Rieth, geologists, and the writers of the electronic and magnetic physics textbooks available in the universities.

4. Louis Rota was an earlier experimenter who did some fascinating work. He did not have the advantage of new facts that have been shown in recent decades. But if he had today's knowledge available at the time of his experiments, I believe he would have gone much farther in perfecting his methods, and eliminating much of the unnecessary time consuming work he did.
I doubt Louis Rota understood "the phenomenon". There is no such thing. "The phenomenon" was promoted after his death, and was proven to be false information from the Mineoro factory owners.
What Louis Rota did understand is how he could combine metals to cause the effects he described.
If you read all his writings, you will see he did not understand the mechanisms or physics involved in producing his results. He only had clues about the principles by which his results came. Also note, his results were not always consistent. These inconsistencies are another problem that could be solved if he understood the principles that were causing the results that he observed.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

hello J_player, i´m very jealous by you return
hola J_playes yo estoy gustoso por tu retorno
ya me tenias preocupado, tal ves acabas de llegar de una larga luna de miel de dos años jajaj

Hi Detectoman,
It's good to be back, but only for awhile.
I have other obligations for my time.

Hola deterctoman,
Me gusta mi retorno, pero sólo por un corto tiempo.
Me gustaría también otra larga luna de miel.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi j_Player
Is beyond my ability to search on the scientific basis of the "phenomenon". In the case of my LRL surely it is a variable electric field as the sensor is a rod antenna and the sensitivity increases by lengthening the antenna, also only works with a resonant circuit at the entrance formed by 2 or 3 turns, and a capacitor of 22pF. As I said in the thread "LRL from Italy" the human body also comes into play by increasing the sensitivity and unlike other LRL that box is made of wood, in my case I use plastic sheets shielded by aluminum.

Best Regards

[hung]

There are perfect storms and 'perfect idiots'. Surely this guy, j______player belongs the this league.

Franco, I cannot believe that you give credit to the frequent BS this character speaks.
To try to discredit what pioneer researchers in the area of the so called 'phenomenon' such as late J.P.Damasio and Victor Alonso have discovered is not only hilarious but also dign of pity.
The only microbes that are involved, only populate in his mind.

My friend Franco, you have proven to be a knowledgeable person in this forum. No need to get involved in nonsense discussions with him. But do what you please...

I can tell you that you are in the right path studying Rota's research. But he is only a small part of the puzzle. The new term for you to pay attention real close is 'dielectric discharge'. Stick to it.

I told here that my new LRL is based on a technology that I have never seen anywhere. This is correct. When the time comes for me to divulge this, you will know and I will also scientifically prove without a shadow of doubt that some of the so called 'accepted' scientific concepts are broken and put into pieces. Academia sucks... they fool nobody anymore.
Working on the panel display now. Looks really neat. Been busy also with field hunts. So not so much time in lab work for this project as I wish I had.
Some more weeks... Stand by.

Rgds.

[WM6]

There are 'perfect idiots'. ....

...... insider say.

[J_Player]

Hi j_Player
Is beyond my ability to search on the scientific basis of the "phenomenon". In the case of my LRL surely it is a variable electric field as the sensor is a rod antenna and the sensitivity increases by lengthening the antenna, also only works with a resonant circuit at the entrance formed by 2 or 3 turns, and a capacitor of 22pF. As I said in the thread "LRL from Italy" the human body also comes into play by increasing the sensitivity and unlike other LRL that box is made of wood, in my case I use plastic sheets shielded by aluminum.

Best Regards

Hi Franco,
Of course it is beyond anyone's ability to search on the scientific basis of the "phenomenon".
The reason is because there is no scientific basis for the "phenomenon".

The basis for the "phenomenon" is this:
Alonso placed a chair on the ground at a location where he knew there was a long-time buried gold item. Then he stood on the chair and saw his locator beep when he held it as high as 7.2 feet above the ground.
After observing this beeping, he stated that gold ions were in the air and were causing his locator to beep.
After making his observation, he and Damasio devised a marketing plan which included manufacturing a pile of pseudoscience to explain to gullible customers how they discovered a new invention called the "substance classifier" which detects clouds of floating gold ions that hover 7.2 feet above buried gold. Then they enhanced their explanation by quoting a German scientist out of context named Leonard B. Loeb, to support their claims of how static electricity was instrumental in making these clouds of floating gold ions detectable.
When it was proven that there are no clouds of gold ions floating in the air to detect, and their "substance classifier" is a sealed cylinder which cannot allow ions to enter the chamber, it became obvious to any educated person that this whole concept of the "phenomenon" was a hoax that they used as a marketing tool to fool laymen.
These are the same people who were caught hiding transmitters to make detectors beep, and planting fake long time buried treasures in the field.

How do we know it was a hoax?
Because they never measured any ions in the air.
They watched their detector beep in the air, and they figured this would be good enough to prove to gullible people that floating gold ions caused the beeping.
If they could convince people that they had the only invention that could detect these floating ions, then they could sell a lot of their detectors to people who have gold fever.
It is easy to prove they gave false information if we sample the air with a drift tube where these alleged floating gold ions are reported to exist.
So why would a person with normal intelligence choose to believe the "phenomenon" is true when they know it has been proven false?
Because hung will call you names if you don't pretend that you believe?

About your locator:
In the case of your locator, you say it is surely a variable electric field as the sensor is a rod antenna and the sensitivity increases by lengthening the antenna, also only works with a resonant circuit at the entrance formed by 2 or 3 turns, and a capacitor of 22pF. Your circuit appears to be an oscillator and a amplifier with a sensor set to alarm when there is a change in the oscillation strength. A rod antenna appears to be the main part which can make changes to the oscillator circuit. But any change moving through the rod antenna is also subjected to the filter formed by the coil and capacitor at the base of the antenna. Judging from this design, I would guess this device is extremely sensitive to any current which might flow through the antenna. A number of things come to mind when I see this circuit design:
1. Any variation of the charge in the air around the antenna can have an influence on the oscillator. The mechanism would be a circuit between charged particles in the air which contact the antenna and transfer the charge to the internal circuitry. In order to complete this circuit, the person holding the locator becomes part of the circuit to allow the electrons to pass through him when they move between the ground and the atmosphere.
2. Remember that the operator of the locator is also exposed to the atmosphere, and will collect charges as the antenna does. In this case, any charge he collects would not be filtered with an LC circuit. And the amount of charge that the operator collects might be much more than what the antenna collects, or it could be less if he is wearing clothes which have a charge that repels charged particles in the air. If we suppose that the operator is collecting charge similar to the antenna, then his charge passes directly from the air without needing to travel through the locator before connecting to him.
3. Capacitance coupling may be playing an important role in what happens with this locator. When static charges are involved, the surface of the operator becomes important as a capacitor which can store a certain amount of charge. The charge of the operator will have varying influences on the locator, because the charge will vary, especially if the operator is moving. In the case when the ground is wet, he will not store much charge, and will become an extension of the ground. In cases of very dry ground such as dry desert sand, he could become highly charged. But what happens when he comes near a tree or other large grounded object? We can expect to see some capacitance coupling effects such as surges of charge at the time he moves toward or away from these objects.
4. Changes in the air charge as you move the locator to different positions in the air would likely cause the oscillator to change its signal strength. If these changes in the air charge are caused by buried gold ion activity, it would be good for locating gold. But what are the variations of air charge? They are often caused by a number of non-gold anomalies such as the same trees or buildings which are an extension of the ground. Or they can also be caused by dust anomalies in the air, or electrical events that are not related to buried gold.
5. While it seems that variations in the atmospheric charge are causing the antenna to move electrons through the locator in varying amounts, there may be another mechanism or more than one which we have not considered. What about oscillation charges in the air -- like RF or other forms of electromagnetic waves that are capable of causing an alternating current to move in the antenna? The antenna looks to be suited for the VHF/UHF frequency range, but it will also respond to other frequencies in lesser amounts.
We could expect that any RF flowing into the RC circuit would be partially rectified by TR1, which might have a similar effect as a DC charge anomaly in the air.

please don't consider these items to be a complete analysis of the circuit. This is only my best guess from what you described, and without my doing any real-world testing on your circuit.
If these things I listed are influencing your circuit, then some of them are considered noise, which is working against your locator.
For example, capacitance coupling effects from the operator walking close to trees and other objects above the ground could cause surges of charge which have nothing to do with locating a treasure, but would help to obscure any readings you are trying to search for. Variations in the air charge are also noise, if these variations are not caused by an anomaly where treasures are buried. And we have a lot of stray RF in the air. Some of it may be passing into the LC circuit and adding to the charge. This could be good or bad, depending on the nature of the stray RF. For example an AM broadcast might cause audio frequency fluctuations in the locator, even if the carrier is RF frequency. Again, this is noise which can obscure any good signal.

As we discovered, we don't know what is a good signal, because we don't know what is causing the fluctuations that this circuit is detecting exactly.
As a tip, I would suggest taking measures to remove the sources of charge that you know are noise, because they are obscuring the other signals that you do not know are noise.
Then you might slowly find which of the remaining signals are actually related to the treasure you are searching for.

And there is much scientific reading you can do without leaving your computer. If you remember, you said in an earlier post that Frank Rieth did not bury gold and then test it a few months later, but you found out that he actually did many times. This information is available online. The example I quoted was taken from one of the links I put in my earlier post where you can do more reading. Just click on the links, and see what he wrote about his experiments and test results. There are many other online sources for related scientific work that is very pertinent to the anomalies caused by buried gold corroding which you can easily find in a Google search. And all of this is free and accessible to anyone with a computer.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J_Player,
Thanks for your explanation, my LRL is insensitive to trees and walls and also to the compass effect. The tilt of the antenna is critical and depends on the distance from the target, surely it takes a little practice to use this LRL. The heart of the circuit is the TR1 stage that is the input of the high gain amplifier and I agree with you that in some way TR1 demodulates the signal received by the antenna and varies the amplitude and the phase of the signal from the oscillator. In my first project there was no oscillator but it was all the amplifier stage that was in auto-oscillation. Just by chance I noticed that the circuit worked as LRL. I hope that the suggestions that I gave recently to help those who have realized my LRL and that they failed to make it work. The metals buried for a month or 2 they emit a very weak signal and it is necessary that the LRL has the highest sensitivity.

Best Regards

[J_Player]

Hi J_Player,
Thanks for your explanation, my LRL is insensitive to trees and walls and also to the compass effect. The tilt of the antenna is critical and depends on the distance from the target, surely it takes a little practice to use this LRL. The heart of the circuit is the TR1 stage that is the input of the high gain amplifier and I agree with you that in some way TR1 demodulates the signal received by the antenna and varies the amplitude and the phase of the signal from the oscillator. In my first project there was no oscillator but it was all the amplifier stage that was in auto-oscillation. Just by chance I noticed that the circuit worked as LRL. I hope that the suggestions that I gave recently to help those who have realized my LRL and that they failed to make it work. The metals buried for a month or 2 they emit a very weak signal and it is necessary that the LRL has the highest sensitivity.

Best Regards

Hi Franco,
Thank you for the new data.
From what you say, it appears your circuit can be influenced by extremely small signals. This kind of equipment falls within a class of instruments which engineers normally take extreme precautions to shield it from noise sources so they can make their measurements. A simple example is when engineers use a meter that can measure less than a pico-amp. They will attempt to shield the meter and the circuit which they are taking measurements on so stray charges in the air, and capacitance coupling from people standing near the meter to read it will not cause false readings. They often use special grounding methods.
Sometimes they even use a Faraday cage to protect both the meter and the circuit which they are measuring so they will not pick up stray currents or charges from the air.
I once did some testing on an LRL circuit which had extremely small currents flowing in it, similar to your antenna and filter, but without the power amp or oscillator. This circuit was many times more sensitive to currents which can enter the antenna and circuitry, and flow through the body of the person who holds it. What I discovered is I needed to remove many noise sources before I could find the small signals that I was interested in measuring. To make accurate measurements in a laboratory, I had to shield the electrical noise from power and lighting circuits in the room with a Faraday cage between the oscilloscopes and meters and the circuit so no noise cold ender from the air outside the cage. And the cage was grounded to an earth ground that was less than a meter distance from the cage. After putting the Faraday cage in place, I saw more than 25 decibels of unwanted noise were removed, and I was finally able to see the desired signal, which originated from inside the cage. This same testing was done outdoors where I saw less noise than in the laboratory. The noise I saw outdoors was weaker, and was mostly man-made RF transmissions from long wave band to microwave frequencies. The frequencies above 1GHz were not as strong as they were found indoors where people use wireless TX links for computer and mobile phone equipment. And noise from the mains power was also very much reduced when measuring outdoors. So when I connected and grounded a Faraday cage outdoors, I saw that I was reducing noise from RF transmitters and some random noise which had no pattern (could be natural source), and some noise at the mains frequency at a lower amplitude. I only reduced the noise about 10 decibels in order to see the same clarity of signals that I wanted to measure when testing outdoors. Something interesting I noticed is the mains frequency and other low frequency EM noise always had higher frequency spikes and dips visible on the curve, which would show a pattern if the LF components were filtered away. And these noise patterns may have had various forms of modulation. I presume most of these higher noise frequencies are from separate sources than the mains noise, but the mains noise also showed modulation and spikes which were probably caused by power equipment in nearby industrial plants.

Now let's return to your locator:
You do not want to shield all of the electronic noise outdoors because you want to be able to measure at least one source of outdoor noise, with hopes that the noise will be somehow be linked to an anomaly in the area where the gold is buried. What you observed is capacitance coupling to trees and the direction of the earth's magnetic field do not influence the circuit in your locator. You also observed that the tilt of the antenna is critical. From this information, it appears you are not detecting a static charge, but demodulated alternating signals from the antenna. The tilt of the antenna may indicate polarization of an incoming RF signal or noise signal. I expect the noise from the air in your location is different than the noise in the air that I measured, but you will probably still see a noise frequency spectrum from ELF/VLF to microwave frequencies.
The next step is to discover what is coming into your antenna, and what is being sensed by the circuits.
Without using any external shielding, have you measured the incoming signal at the base of the antenna and at the TR1 stage with an oscilloscope?
This is the easiest test to see what is coming in and passing to the circuit. But to accomplish this measurement you must make precautions to insure the oscilloscope is not picking up the same noise that goes into the antenna, which would contaminate the measurements you are making.
If you have an accurate picture of the wave forms before and after demodulation, this can be helpful to determine what signal you are detecting. It would also be very helpful to use a portable hand-held oscilloscope which you can use to watch changes in these signals as you move the locator from hot treasure locations, to empty locations. It would also be helpful to look for changes in the incoming signals when you change the tilt of the antenna. Another measurement that would be helpful is to see what part of the incoming signal the LC filter is removing from the antenna. At this point, your testing equipment and testing methods are most important so you can capture some signals that show what small AC and DC currents are actually flowing before and after the filter and TR1 stage.

After we learn more about what signals are coming in, then we can address the problems that other people have when they fail to build a working clone of this locator.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J_Player
Without metal buried near my LRL not hear anything even tilting the antenna but if there are buried metals approaching the target is necessary to tilt the antenna to get the signal. It seems that the "phenomenon" has its origin about 50cm above the target and then "spreading" around the target tilting upwards. I think a normal oscilloscope does not have the necessary sensitivity to measure the signal at the input of TR1, but I must say that at the moment are more interested in making research with my LRL than trying to understand the scientific basis of its funzionamente. For me the important thing is that it is stable, has no false signals and especially feels the "phenomenon".

Best Regards

[J_Player]

Hi J_Player
Without metal buried near my LRL not hear anything even tilting the antenna but if there are buried metals approaching the target is necessary to tilt the antenna to get the signal. It seems that the "phenomenon" has its origin about 50cm above the target and then "spreading" around the target tilting upwards. I think a normal oscilloscope does not have the necessary sensitivity to measure the signal at the input of TR1, but I must say that at the moment are more interested in making research with my LRL than trying to understand the scientific basis of its funzionamente. For me the important thing is that it is stable, has no false signals and especially feels the "phenomenon".

Best Regards

Hi Franco,
I have watched you since 2006 looking for ways to detect buried treasure from a distance. 8 years later, you are looking for a "phenomenon" that does not exist. Yet you are able to see detection in a pattern. You are detecting real electrical energy of some sort, not ions floating in the air, as the "phenomenon" was falsely defined.

The only method I know to improve the performance of your locator is to first identify what form of electrical energy you are detecting. Then take measures to isolate this energy as a signal, and shield it from other noise which will interfere and cause false readings, or otherwise obscure the signal. If you are certain it is not possible to identify what kind of signals your antenna is receiving, and observe the signal in the filter and at TR1, then I believe you will still be searching for ways to make your locator stable without false signals after 8 more years pass.
At this point, there is nothing more I can do to help.
Good luck with your treasure hunting.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J_Player,
You're right it is 8 years that I have been interested LRL but now I have what I need, a stable LRL without false signals even if for different reasons, including health reasons, I have not been able to do extensive research in the fields, however, I found several metals, mainly composed of brass. But this is enough to show that the LRL works well. Concerning the phenomenon it certainly exists and is the one that allows to metals buried for a long time to be detected at a distance. You can also call it "disturbance" or "modulation" of an existing field, telluric currents, RF emissions, background noise, and so on. If you do not accept this fact and you use scientific laws to demonstrate that the phenomenon does not exist you will no doubt be in good company. In this forum there are many people who are experts in the field of physics and electronics, but in the real field have made a few steps with something homemade.
Best Regards