Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector circuit

[J_Player]

This thread is about the Negative Ion Detector circuit schematic that Ivconic posted. This circuit is re-posted below, and I have restated some of the significant statements about this circuit made by forum contributors. There is enough information in these pages to build a working model based on Ivconic's circuit, as well as to make modifications to the circuitry for enhanced performance.

Some important features that make this machine different from some other LRLs are that it is one of the few LRL designs I have seen that uses no "bait charge" or sealed chambers, while using an electronic circuit that is designed to sense and amplify a signal using standard electronic circuits and principles. I see no place where there are wires terminating on surplus or non-working circuit boards, and there are no circuit components not electrically connected, and only glued together.

I am totally ignorant of how detecting negative ions can help anyone locate distant buried treasures. But I can discern what the apparent purpose of the components in these circuit diagrams are. What I have to say about this device is based only on my rudimentary understanding of conventional electronic circuits and the known physical laws of energy and matter. There may be much more to the principles of how this machine works, unknown to me or other scientifically minded persons educated in the classical method of understanding the world around us. Therefore I make no claims as to how this device may work or not work for locating remote treasures. The following is only my understanding of what I would expect to measure with this machine:

It appears to me that if this machine is properly adjusted, you may expect negative airborne ions in the general vicinity of the dish will be attracted to the dish. And upon contacting the dish, some of them will become neutral. This should also be true of negatively charged dust and aerosol particles suspended in the air around the dish, which may end up becoming a thin film of dust on the dish. At the moment that any negativly charged particle contacts the dish, there will probably be a minute pulse of electricity accumulated on the antenna (or maybe not, depending on how well the circuitry works). I imagine that any minute charge on the antenna would be induced my the electrical or (indirectly) by the magnetic properties of the charged particle changing from a positive to a neutral charge. I presume sub-atomic particle and wave theory is involved in explaining the energy coupling to the antenna. In any case the amount of signal that appears on the antenna is extremely minute, and it would take a lot of ions collected to become measurable. Assuming that the negatively charged particles are being neutralized by the dish in a non-uniform pattern as the dish is moved around, then the amount of charge sensed on the antenna would vary depending on where the dish is moved, and on the composition of the air around the dish. ie: if you move the dish close to an ion source (like a high voitage air purifier, or a flame or other source of negative ions), then the amount of signal will be different than from the previous location. The minute variation in signal is sensed and amplified so it can be seen on a meter or heard from the speaker. The circuitry also has 3 adjustments which allow the user to adjust the output to a null point with a high degree of percision in a widely varying environment of local airborne ions.

As far as I can tell, this device is measuring the the antenna's reaction to the concentration of charged particles in the nearby vicinity of the dish (nearby meaning within a foot or less). If there is some mechanism by which remote treasures are being located, I am totally ignorant of that mechanism.

I welcome any explanations from experienced users of LRLs about how this machine works, and any corrections in the theories that perhaps I am ignorant of. So far I have heard a number of conflicting explanations from different proponents of LRLs. I will have no arguments against any theory, but I may have some questions if I hear explanations that I can't understand. (I already heard the theory that these devices are used soley for detecting gravity and seperating a buyer from his money. No need to elaborate on that, because I understand that principle complely).

The following post after this is Ivconic's circuit and my commentary on the components of the circuitry.

[J_Player]

Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector Circuit

The Circuit below is what Ivconic posted as a "working LRL". Since it has some standard electronic circuitry, I will give a brief overview for those who are interested. Keep in mind I am not an electronic technician, and I may make some errors.

The basic purpose of the circuitry is to charge the dish positively, and sense minute electrical variations that are picked up on the antenna. The electrical variations sensed on the antenna are amplified and sent directly to the speaker. This means you can hear only variations in the audio range that are sensed on the antenna. The meter is wired to show the amplitude of the audio and non-audio signal variations. There are 4 controls which allow you to adjust the amount of charge on the dish, and to adjust the sensitivity and range that you are sensing on the antenna. This means that you are only measuring relative changes in the signal picked up, not the absolute amount of signal. However, if the controls are left at the same settings, you will see the relative change in signal from one sensing location to another, and from one point in time to another.

Starting with the U1 LM555 at the lower left, all the circuitry around this IC is an oscillator that supplies ac power to the Motorola-Lucent transformet (this is a transformer from a modem card). The secondary side of that transformer is connected so as to put a positive charge on the dish. The 100k potentiometer to the left of the 555 probably adjusts the oscillator frequency. If so, it will ultimately adjust how strong a charge is sent to the dish. This entire charging circuit and it's oscillator has it's own dedicated power supply which is isolated from the remaining sensing circuitry. This is most likely to avoid sending interference from the oscillator to the sensing circuits. I suppose the dish charging circuitry is turned on and off by removing the 9v battery to the left, but a switch could be added to disconnect the battery.

The reciever portion starts with the 30 cm telescoping antenna in the dish. It is shown connected to a wire that passes through a teflon bushing in the center of the dish. It should be said that teflon is one of the best insulators known, and the use of teflon may be crucial for top performance. The physical dimension of this teflon bushing may also be important depending on what voltage the dish is charged to, and if there is an ac frequency component on the dish.

Next we come to the sensor circuitry. (I presume this circuitry is isolated and shielded from the oscillator and dish. All of the sensor circuitry is powered by the two 9v batteries shown at the bottom right. The two voltage regulators provide 8v positive, 8v negative, and a ground. The sensor circuit is also turned on and off by removing the batteries, but a 2-gang switch could be added to turn it on and off. When we trace the wire from the antenna to the 3 ICs to the right, we see the signal is feeding into a 3-IC circuit whose output is sent to a differential amplifier.

Take note, that the differential amplifier has 3 potentiometers, one to control the feedback, and two that adjust the output signal that feeds to the next amplifier stage. This is where the sensitivity and sensing range of this machine is adjusted. After passing through the next amplifier stage at the right, the signal branches toward the speaker and a meter. The speaker has a small power transistor driving it, while the meter has an IC with another adjustment on the input side (appears to be a gain control to keep the meter in the desired range).

A final note about the differential amplifier circuitry: The 3 ICs that initially sense the antenna signal are designed to create a differential signal from the single signal on the antenna. The lower 2 of these 3 ICs, may create a short time delay in addition to inverting the polarity of the signal, depending on the values of the components around the IC. If this is true then this delay can be thought of as a phase shift for any frequency that may be picked up on the antenna, and the degrees of shift would be defined by the frequency sensed. If this portion of the circuit was intended to act as a delay, then it may have a significant influence on the operation of the LRL.

If anyone was to build this circuit, I suppose the mechanical considerations would be to make sure the dish and antenna assembly were sturdy enough to withstand whatever use you put the machine to. I imagine the balance of the finished machine is also important. This machine would be very lightweight, with the heaviest component being the 3 batteries and the meter. The electronics could probably be mounted inside 2 small aluminum boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes.

Electrical considerations revolve around the fact that you are measuring minute electrical variations near a charged dish. I would think it is important to wear non-static clothes (no synthetics -- 100% cotton), and keep any other objects that collect static charges away from the machine. Also, I would mount the dish-charging circuit in a seperate metal box from the sensor circuit. And ground both boxes to the sensor ground, while keeping the dish-charging circuit isolated from the box that it is mounted inside. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground.

[FrancoItaly]

link

HI everyone
suggest this link for better knowledge of the electrostatic/ion fenomenon:
http://www.ece.rochester.edu/~jones/demos/ahern.html
http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles/cloud.pdf
http://amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html#electro
http://www.imagineeringezine.com/e-zine/efield.html
http://www.corp.direct.ca/trinity/iondetector.html

I think that only an E-field may go for 10 meters or plus and ions near the detector are affected by this E-field

[Esteban]

Maybe?



Ivconic, welcome!



Some considerations: the 555-oscillator requires work with voltage regulator. I think 8 volts is fine. So, two 9 V alkaline batteries needed for mantain large time in operation.

Now the transistor is connected to 18 V, no in regulator part for to prevent inestabilities.

Also replace the common 555 by 7555 wich drain less current. Cx is for calculate the desire frequency, believe 100 between 400 Hz is good. The key command another diode for detect positive ions. Dish polarizate negative = attract positive ions. Dish polarizate positive = attract negative ions. The batteries must be independent to this stage of the sensor-amplifier stage.

Any idea? Is correct this?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban
I think you have to reverse polarity of the other diode for detect positive ions!

[FrancoItaly]

Hi everyone

if the purpose of the transformer is to raise the oscillator voltage we can use 2 x 9V batteries stabilized by a 7815 regulator without the transformer...

[J_Player]

Franco is right. There is no need to add the voltage regulator. The original circuit has a transformer which raises the voltage above the amount seen in the output from the 555. If you wish to change the polarity of the dish, then connect a 2-gang switch that will reverse the polarity of the 2 4001 diodes in the original circuit.

The power consumed by the 555 can be reduced by using a cmos version of this IC. The oscillator could also be built from a cmos quad inverter and a resistor and capacitor. I expect the inverter oscilator would use even less power if the capacitor value was small and the frequency was in the low audio range.

My best guess is the frequency does not matter except it should be at a frequency that is close to the resonant frequency of the transformer/capacitor to the right. as the frequency of the oscillator is shifted away from the resonant frequency, you can expect the amount of charging to the dish to drop off. The 100k potentiometer next to the 555 is for making adjustments to the frequency for tuning purposes. The resultant voltage can be measured between the dish and ground rail with an analog volt meter. If this frequency is in the audio range, then there is a good chance you will hear it in the speaker. I presume this is not desirable, and it is tuned to a frequency outside the audio spectrum.

If it is desireable, the are are a number of ways to charge the dish to a higher voltage using the same 9v battery, and even send a very pure dc charge to the dish if necessary. But I have no knowledge if doing this this would improve locating treasures with the detector.

[Esteban]

Elektor's article (1987) about ionic detection for water, somebody maybe has in English. The article refers you can use a plate or telescopic antenna for this. The designers of this device assume that can find water IN MOVEMENT (subsurface), the only kind of water detectable by INTERCHANGING of ions.

The oscillator, through the 4066 transmit the frequency to the antenna for to discharge excesive ions arrival. The 10 k pot provides a kind of threshold and works as sensibility. Key is for detect water and other for electricity in walls. At more low conmutation via 2M2 preset the sensibility is better, this is at more low frequency. C9 is a kind of memory for the signal to compare, require good quality capacitor. Downloadble complete article (Zahori.zip) here: http://www.mytempdir.com/472871
Maybe somebody can translate for all, maybe somebody has the English version.
Here the schematic:

[J_Player]

Construction considerations for the Ion Detector

Here are some ideas for buildig Ivconic's negative ion detector:

This machine can be very lightweight because the electronics for the transmitter and reciever are both minimal. If anyone was to build this circuit, the electronics could be mounted inside small metal boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes. The entire assembly including the dish could weigh between a quarter to a half-pound a (1/2 kilo to 1 kilo).

For actual construction, I would recommend that the charging and detecting circuits are mounted inside seperate metal boxes which are both grounded to the reciever circuit ground. The dish-charging circuit and battery should be mounted inside its metal box without contacting the metal, ie: nylon mounting hardware, or slip it into a plastic box that fits inside the metal box. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground (see diagram below item A and C).

The box that contains the sensing circuit will most likely have the meter and speaker attached. A headphone jack could be wired in if you prefer to hear with headphones. Inside this box you should keep the circuit with the differential ampolifier as close to the antenna as possible, and away from the speaker and meter. the most critical part that could recieve interference is the antenna wire and the leads that it connects to. In practice, all these parts will fit in a very small space unless you choose a large meter and speaker. The idea is to mount the circuit board so the end with the antenna wire si up close against where the antenna is, without a long wire looped inside the case to reach the circuit board. The insulator that the electronics bozes attach to can be anything from insulating washers and screws, to an insulated plate as long as the boxes and electronics are not connected to the dish. The transistor and IC for the final amplification to the speaker and meter could be mounted on a small circuit board attached to the meter and speaker, or may be incorporated as part of a single board that holds all of the sensor electronics.
The dish and antenna are items that can be salvaged for no cost. If they must be bought, the antenna can be found at an electronics store like radio shack. If stainless steel works for a dish, then there are stainless stell mixing bowls available at stores that sell kitchen utensils for under $10. Goodwill second-hand stores are a good source to find used metal bowls that are about the right size for this project. The actual insulator and handle can be made from anything from woood to fiberglass. But if a partially conductive material is used like wood, then I would recommend using a plastic separator between it and the metal dish to insure there is no current flowing through the wood.

[FrancoItaly]

Audio frequency

I think it's important to define what is the audio to loudspeaker, as there is no audio generator and then signal comes from antenna. The 1 mF tantal capacitor at the out of differential stage has a great value and then only very low frequencies can arrive to loudspeaker, I suppose a sound like "tac". Very strange the imput stage as on the contrary of instrumental amplifier it has a single input, also doubbled, and a differential output. I think the voltage on the Al dish it's not a perfect DC voltage but it has a little ripple of the oscillator frequency and this is the "carrier" of signal received.

[goldfinder]

IVCONIC and ELKTOR circuits

Hola Esteban,
It looks to me like the two circuits do basically the same thing. Namely, the dish is negatively charged to attract positive ions so the antenna picks up the negative ions.

The 555 circuit in all these still bugs me. I replaced all my 555s and their associated parts with ONE PIC microcontroller and it works great. And it gives me lots more flexibility with numerous IO ports, Analog to Digital, total reprogramability of frequency and pulse width, etc.

Both circuits use a very high impedance front ends to pick up minute ion charges plus amplification of the signal.

Say Esteban, was that picture on the Mineoro thread with some guys with an ion detector your dish antenna ion detector? And was it the hopped up Elktor circuit. So have you really found anything with it???

I would venture that a simple tin can would server just as well to replace the bulky dish antenna. It could even have a fan in the back of the can to suck air in. That way the detector would not be subject to wind and air movements so much. Some of the commercial ion detectors use this principle. That big dish antenna is cumbersome in the field.

Goldfinder

[Esteban]

Hi






The picture in Mineoro thread is a machine type high-voltage, but in this case the high voltage "emerge" from the sharp-end of the central solid bronze antenna. The round copper disc is the "receiver". Incredible, but this machine works better near high voltage lines. No many technical details have about it...







The original Elektor 's "water finder" (in Spanish "Zahorí") suffers some modifications. I added two more lateral antennas to 0 V, and use an only sensibility control, the 10 k pot. This circuit work fine at 4.5 V, 1.5 V AA batteries, dual +/- 4.5 V.



The audio output connect to an audible signalizer type bip-bip. So, convert any "bad" tac or tic or etc. in a bip-bip.



The antenna has not direct connection with the IC, I use 100 pF.



Yes, sure, also you can find buried long time metals with it.







Here a classic idea of antenna for ions detection. For replace the both lateral telescopic antenna in Zahori or for the Ivconic's project.

[goldfinder]

Thanks Estaban

HI Esteban,
Thanks for reply. Your "classic" ion detection antenna is basically the same as my suggestion to use a tin can with an antenna in the center. The tin can is polarized to collect the opposite of the ions the central antenna is collecting that goes to the analysis electronics.

Have good THing,
Goldfinder

[ivconic]

hi

Hi,
I have read all post so far. First, a lot of thanks to J Player for opening
a new thread. I do agree absolutelly with that. J Player's notes,suggests and
ideas are more than welcome and I could not do anything else but agree and thanks!
Some hints:
* For dish I can advice only Al or Cu.
* 555 to replace with 7555 is just fine.(due to power consumption)
* freq.of 555 is to be tuned a lower than 1khz.
* stabillity is not very important due to purpose of polarisation of the dish,
that's why is 555 choice,dish need some potential and freq. can vary a bit.
* transformer is not only for rising voltage but as a galvanic isolation and
band-pass too.
* dish is better than cage due to wider range of rejecting,although a cage is
very nice solution if you want a narrow angle of "scaning".

"Inside this box you should keep the circuit with the differential amplifier
as close to the antenna as possible..." J Player's note
* This is crucial !!! I do agree 100%. Otherwise all You pick up is a noise!
that's why teflon is used.It should be a teflon holder for antena and pcb
at the same time! No wires at all in between! The rest of the box may be
Lexan or metal.

"I think it's important to define what is the audio to loudspeaker, as there
is no audio generator and then signal comes from antenna. The 1 mF tantal
capacitor at the out of differential stage has a great value and then only
very low frequencies can arrive to loudspeaker, I suppose a sound like "tac".
Very strange the imput stage as on the contrary of instrumental amplifier it
has a single input, also doubbled, and a differential output. I think the
voltage on the Al dish it's not a perfect DC voltage but it has a little
ripple of the oscillator frequency and this is the "carrier" of signal
received." FrancoItaly's notes

Ciao Franco, come e sta? I guess that's all from my Italian!
Well You have right at some points. Audio is "poor" a bit, but enough.You can
mod it if You want. The 1mF tantal is a filter. "Tac" is supposed to hear and
it is allright.Input is ultra high impendace, only way to collect some ions.
Input has a "double" or "twins" but with different level of amplifying, think
about that! Both are leaded in to diff. amp.and only a slice shift You hear
in a speaker.About "carrier", well You might be right.I was thinking to put
some extra filter on it.Open for ideas.

Hi Esteban!
"The audio output connect to an audible signalizer type bip-bip. So,
convert any "bad" tac or tic or etc. in a bip-bip."
Yes Esteban, I agree! I was thinking to mod this anyway.
About "jail" or "cage"(as I named it), yes, but it is very narrow and You have to
use a fan. Fan, from the other hand, can produce some noise to input....
It will need some extra electronics to calm down that noise.But in any case,
"jail" is nice too.

Well, what to say more....it seem that if we all put some ideas here(and draws and
some mod's schematics) we can come up to a very nice device. That was my
idea at the begining. Besides, man can learn much more when share with others!
In that spirit I salute You people.
Best regards.
P.S.
I am waiting for more mods. J Player did a great job so far.

[aft_72005]

Hi to all

I have problems :

How discriminate gold ion from other ions with

This circuit ? for example ,silver ion ,water ion,

And …..

May be dish charge frequency dependent to discrimination .

Why use dish in circuit ? for focus ions or attraction it .

Seem as for attraction, so when charge it be able

Attract opposite ions thus probably we can use another

Form Replace whit dish .

Thanks.