"And other swivelling methods"

[Dave J.]

The company I work for (Fisher) has been in the long range locating business since the early 1930's. The company has also used similar and unrelated technologies for short range locating. Fisher spun off the marine communications and radio direction finding division approx. 1970, but the underground locating division is alive and well more than 40 years later.

Today I was called to work to sort through a bunch of boxed-up stuff that had been in cold storage for a few years, and decide what to keep and what to throw out. As it turns out, most of the stuff in those boxes was museum items inherited from the defunct Los Banos operation. Geiger counters, acoustic leak detectors, a radio direction finder, some old 2-box units, some old TR "floor polisher" metal detectors, a searchcoil alignment fixture built in 1932, and a complete geophysical transmitter-receiver system with tripod and rotating antenna mount. The geophysical system was vacuum tube from 1956, but similar things date back decades earlier.

* * * * * * * *

The pity of LRL hobbyist experimentation is that the hobbyists have made the mistake of believing that commercial L-rod LRL "treasure finders" are technological apparatus that a hobbyist could perhaps replicate, when in fact such commercial stuff is fraudulent. It is not based on any kind of scientific principle other than the principle of deceiving gullibillies. Real electronic VLF-LF locating apparatus has meanwhile been around for about a century (predating even Fisher) and the underlying science is not a secret.

If someone either has no knowledge of the underlying science, or knows it but wants to argue with the Universe over its way of doing things, then fairy tales are what you get. With a sufficiently elaborate alabi system, the game of trying to defeat the Universe can go on until the coffin puts an end to it, such is the fate of mortals.

--Dave J.

[Dell Winders]

Dave, I don't know where you get your information from, but I know for a fact that your assessment of MFD & HID is wrong. Do you enjoy making statements that can't be supported by fact? Dell

[Dave J.]

Dell, you complain about the assertion that LRL stuff is fraudulent. But you offer no evidence why LRL's should have any credibility in the face of the absolutely overwhelming evidence of both a technical and advertising nature that the stuff is in fact fraudulent. And you guys are the ones who furnish the evidence! Like EE used to say on TNet, you guys are your own worst skeptics.

The stories of LRL fans themselves are sufficient evidence against the apparatus: what "skeptics" (i.e., people with brains having more backbone than a jellyfish) add is mere frosting on the cake. In fact I frequently post links to the statements and advertising of LRL fans so anyone with a brain having more backbone than a jellyfish can see that the LRL enterprise is fraudulent. The folks whose brains have no backbone, i.e. gullibillies, may fall for the LRL story line and fork over their dough once they've passed the wallet biopsy test. Just think, you yourself may be the financial beneficiary of my educational largesse!

Link to Dell's website: http://www.omnitron.net/

In all fairness, Dell, your website is rather conservative compared to (for instance) the ridiculous extravagance of the website for the calculator swingy thingies ( http://rangertell.com/ ).

--Dave J.

[Dell Winders]

And, if you were posting in all fairness you would have researched, investigated and learned the facts about the physics, and Science that support MFD, HID, and some LRL's, so you can be honest in your reporting.

Neither you, or any one of the Skeptic group has offered any legitimate Scientific evidence that what I state is not the truth. My same website has been there for over 20 years. The facts in it have not changed. I don't hide the truth. The products I build have withstood the test of time and consumer use without complaint. Who are you to argue with a long record of customer satisfaction, without providing any legitimate proof to the contrary?

The agenda driven lieing BS rhetoric about me from proclaimed Skeptics and cult followers of James Randi, and Carl Morland, has not, and cannot withstand the rigors of true Scientific testing of the facts. In light of the truth, you don't have a Scientific leg to stand on.

It amazes me how hard you guys work to distort the facts & truth about me. Dell

[Dave J.]

Dell, where would one find these alleged scientific facts supporting LRL's? They're not in this forum, they're not on the TNet forum, they're not on Mineoro's website, and they're not on your website, not evident in the actual design and manufacture of the products, not in any scientific publications and not even in LRL patents (!).

Pity the poor LRL hobbyist who comes here hoping for LRL gurus to explain to them how LRL's work, and they can't get any straight answers from the LRL gurus. All they get from the LRL fans and promoters is pseudoscientific blather, the product of lots of imagination trying to cover up the fact that the electronic part of the thing has nothing to do with detecting buried treasure, it's entirely bogus. Entirely, 100%. The only thing that works is the swivel, and as we know from long experience, that's the only thing that has to work for gullibillies to make up fairy tales about the bogus electronics.

And really, Dell, your website has been up unchanged for 20 years? Don't tell us, tell Al Gore!

*******************

This afternoon I put into storage two electronic VLF-LF long range locating gizmos dating from the 1950's that had swivels. The electronics weren't bogus. One probably had a range of thousands of miles under ideal conditions and the other probably up to several miles. They were engineered according to scientific principles and not even the Amazing Randi ever disputed them.

Had swivels, weren't bogus, really worked (before the batteries died.)The fact they weren't bogus and really worked is what makes them not LRL's. Nobody, not even Hung, refers to non-bogus electronic locating apparatus as "LRL".

--Dave J.

[J_Player]

This is interesting.
Since Dell has often described education that is taught to engineers in schools and universities to be "brainwashing", we are expected to feel that this scientific knowledge is to be considered suspect.
This is because it does not recognize the "facts about the physics, and Science that support MFD, HID, and some LRL's" to be anything different than pseudoscience.
Yet Dell does not tell us where we can find these "facts about the physics, and Science that support MFD, HID, and some LRL's".

However, some of these "facts" can be found on his website: http://www.omnitron.net/

"The electronics of these instruments are fixed to a normal magnetic field.
They can not compensate for field fluctuations therefore the operator must be aware of any changes by manually testing the unit.
The instrument and operator are measuring the differential between the magnetic field surrounding the earth and the fields created by the target metals, both ferrous and non-ferrous as well as other chemical elements.
It has become difficult at times to measure these differences because of increasing solar flare activity that produces surges in the magnetic field surrounding the earth which at times can become stronger than the field produced by the metals or the instrument.
Understanding this and other facets will contribute to your overall success with the instrument".

According to Dell's website, the "science facts" are that a swivelling brass rod with electronics attached are detecting variations in magnetic fields that are created by ferrous and non-ferrous metals as well as other chemical elements.
Dell also teaches that solar flares can cause surges in the earth's magnetic field which are stronger than the magnetic field anomalies from these metals, or the swivelling brass rod with the electronics attached.
-- and this can make it difficult to measure these magnetic differences that tell us where ferrous and non-ferrous as well as other chemical elements are located.

Let's consider the "science facts" that Dell is teaching us.
1. First, we must dismiss any notion that non-ferrous metals and other chemicals are incapable of causing magnetic field anomalies on the same order of magnitude as a solar flare.
According to Dell's teachings, these items create detectable magnetic anomalies.
2. Now that we have the new "facts of science" from Dell, we can proceed to learn which items are creating these magnetic anomalies on another of his web pages.
Some of these detectable items Dell listed are: Gold, silver copper, lead, nickel, diamond, emerald, garnet, flint, paper currency, pharmaceuticals, Cremora, and aspirin.
I am sure there are many others which we have not discovered yet.

Somehow this seems strange.
I mean, even if we ignore any "university science brainwashing" that says a bottle of aspirin does not cause a detectable magnetic anomaly, we still know that there are geologists who work with extremely sensitive magnetometers who cannot detect any anomaly from a bottle of aspirin.
But they can easily detect a solar flare which Dell says interferes with these magnetic anomalies.
It makes you wonder.
But since we are trying to learn "facts about the physics, and Science that support MFD, HID, and some LRL's", we can also ignore what geologists tell us.

Next we look at the Dell Winders product page: http://www.omnitron.net/del_prod.htm

There are two basic products for sale: The Dell Pro-4 Frequency discriminator for $950 and the X-Scan combo for $1195.
You can also buy the Dell Directional Rod for $300.

So what are these products?
The Pro-4 is a pair of brass dowsing rods in copper handles with wires connected to a low voltage adjustable frequency generator.
The frequency generator functions the same as any other battery powered frequency generator, and uses a microcontroller to produce the frequencies instead of a timer or frequency generator chip.
It also comes with a free weight chek' box with a non-electronic knob on it.
Functionally, the Dell Pro-4 works the same as carl's circuit for MFD which ma330 built. http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...ad.php?t=18487


The X-Scan appears to be the same frequency generator electronics connected to a brass rod with a plastic extension that contains two sample chambers.


On this page, we also find more "facts" published by Dell Winders.
After a lengthy description of all the testing he did, here is a fact that Dell tells us about the Dell Pro-4:
"The PRO-4 has yet to prove it's merit with a recovery".

Dell then goes on to tell us that as of August 2003, the X-Scan has only received limited testing...
"As of August 2003 the X-SCAN has only been tested under the Ground & Atmospheric conditions of Central Florida, USA on a limited variety of targets.
At the moment I really don't know the extent of it's capabilities, or of it's limitations".
Dell then goes on to invite people to Beta test the X-Scan in their conditions.

This seems strange.
Why would anyone pay $950 for a Pro-4 which Dell says hasn't recovered any treasure since it was introduced in 2003?
And why would we pay $1195 to help Dell Beta test an LRL which he does not know what are the capabilities and limitations of?
Does it seem strange that the X-Scan has been in Beta test since 2003?

But wait...
I don't really see any place where Dell states what these LRLs can locate.
He only describes them as his special kinds of rods connected to his adjustable frequency generator which can be tuned to different elements.
The only time I remember Dell answering a direct question about what his LRLs detect is when he answered Carl-NC in the treasurehunting forum:

Carl-NC: "Dell, of the LRLs you sell, can any of them actually detect gold?"
Dell Winders: "NO! In my opinion, the locators I sell DO NOT actually detect Gold. Dell"

Wait a minute...
Dell is charging $950 and $1195 for his rods because he added a signal generator that does not find treasure?
Isn't that what most LRL factories do?
Well not all... some charge more than $1195 for their rod-attached signal generators that do not find treasure.

Back to the "science facts"...
we see both of these products use brass swivel rods, and one has a plastic extension on it.
These are more examples of the "science facts" which demonstrate that brass and plastic rods are responding by moving as they are "measuring the differential between the magnetic field surrounding the earth and the fields created by the target" materials.
We must remember to discard any "brainwashing" which taught us that brass and plastic to not respond to magnetic fields similar to the strength found in the earth's field.
Then we can understand how these LRLs work with magnetism in the terms that Dell teaches.
But something seems amiss... the part about not detecting treasures....

Hmmm....
After looking at the facts that Dell showed us, it appears that it does not help to ignore "university science brainwashing" which tells us we can't detect a magnetic anomaly from a bottle of aspirin.
For $1195 I can buy a Dell X-Scan combo and perform free beta testing, while finding no treasure,
or I can buy a real metal detector that actually detects hidden metal.
Would I be wrong to buy a real metal detector?


Maybe Dell can tell ma330 why he cannot find treasure with his MFD which operates using the same kind of signal and rods as the Dell Pro-4?


Best Wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

Dell, these guys are genetically predisposed to be coldblooded, heartless, without feelings for others. You can see they want so bad to be able to use an LRL they have to criticize the people who use them. It's so typical to blame others to hide their own inadequacies. And the funny thing it is the elephant principle. When an elephant is young the trainer ties a rope around it's leg and attaches it to a stake in the ground. When the elephant gets older and stronger it could easily pull the stake up but it thinks it can't do it so it doesn't even try.

[Dave J.]

Mike, ya gotta understand that when someone posts malarkey on a public forum, they can expect it to be critiqued. That's what forums are.

If a person's feelings are hurt by their malarkey getting critiqued, a public forum is the wrong place to be posting. You might try a private bulletin board where to be allowed access you have to agree not to critique malarkey.

--Dave J.

[Dell Winders]

J player, You have thrown enough of your deceptive spin on this to make a whirling Dervish dizzy. No where am I against Science, Scientist, or formal education. Just Scientific Pretenders like yourself who make a mockery of Science to serve a Skeptic agenda.

How many of you participated in the forum discussions which among myself and 43 others, included 3 Scientist, & 4 Electronic Engineers, titled "Molecular Frequency Discrimination" (MFD) that was started by TNET?

You don't remember? Awww! Looks like you don't know near as much as you pretend to know about Frequency Discrimination, and Harmonic Induction .

FYI, the X-Scan, is not a Frequency Generator. Only, in your imagination and efforts to deceive viewers who are gullible enough to believe your Skeptic group BS. Dell

[Dave J.]

Fairy Tale #1:

Dell, these guys .... they want so bad to be able to use an LRL they have to criticize the people who use them.

Commonly encountered Fairy Tale #2 is that metal detector companies bash LRL's because they're afraid of the competition. (Get a lot of that from Hung.)

***********************************

There are at least two companies that make both "real detectors" and the fraudulent stuff: Mineoro and OKM. Every engineer who is familiar with both knows how to design both. There are trade secrets in the world of real metal detectors, but you don't need to know any trade secrets to design and build your own that once you've built it, it will beep. No wondering whether or not it works.

In the case of LRL's, there are no trade secrets to their operation, because they're fraudulent. For example Chuckie's microprocessor code is a trade secret, but it doesn't have anything to do with actual detection of target objects or materials since his apparatus does not do that. Designing and building an LRL that works just as well as any of 'em out there is easy: what's hard for most of us is living with our conscience were we to sell it to anyone.

LRL's are not competition to metal detectors, the competition is other metal detector manufacturers. In fact most people who have LRL's and believe that they work, do their actual finding of stuff with a metal detector. They frequently own several metal detectors.

I have occasionally suggested manufacturing non-fraudulent dowsing rods, but the company CEO's decided they weren't a good fit from a marketing perspective. Dowsing rods have coexisted with non-fraudulent electronic locating for as long as the latter have existed, and they've never posed a threat to real electronic locating. (A case could be made that plain vanilla dowsing rods do pose a threat to LRL's, we get a whiff of that in the dowsing-denial advertising of LRL fans.)

The world of LRL's is a world driven by fairy tales. If you want to live in the world of fairy tales badly enough to pay for it, LRL's are your stairway to heaven.

--Dave J.

[Dave J.]

How many of you participated in the forum discussions which among myself and 43 others, included 3 Scientist, & 4 Electronic Engineers, titled "Molecular Frequency Discrimination" (MFD) that was started by TNET? Dell

Don't see it there, Dell. Care to either bump it or provide a link?

--Dave J.

[J_Player]

J player, You have thrown enough of your deceptive spin on this to make a whirling Dervish dizzy. No where am I against Science, Scientist, or formal education. Just Scientific Pretenders like yourself who make a mockery of Science to serve a Skeptic agenda.

How many of you participated in the forum discussions which among myself and 43 others, included 3 Scientist, & 4 Electronic Engineers, titled "Molecular Frequency Discrimination" (MFD) that was started by TNET?

You don't remember? Awww! Looks like you don't know near as much as you pretend to know about Frequency Discrimination, and Harmonic Induction .

FYI, the X-Scan, is not a Frequency Generator. Only, in your imagination and efforts to deceive viewers who are gullible enough to believe your Skeptic group BS. Dell

Hi Dell,
I described your X-Scan combo as a product that you sell for $1195, then I later said it appears to be the same frequency generator electronics [as the Pro-4] connected to a brass rod with a plastic extension that contains two sample chambers.
The reason I say it appears to be the same frequency generator is because the plastic box shown in the X-Scan combo on your web page looks almost identical to the plastic box that holds the Pro-4 frequency generator.
Now you are saying it is not a frequency generator.
Well I, for one am interested in learning the facts.
Can you tell us what is the plastic box with the "Omnitron" label on it that you include in the X-Scan combo?
If it is not an electronic frequency generator, then what is it?

Also, I wonder - If you really are not against science or formal education, then why do you insist that the science that is taught in formal education is wrong?
-- We see you are advancing your theory that the formal science education which teaches that non-ferrous metals and pharmaceuticals do not create magnetic anomalies is not correct.

Or did I misunderstand your post, and you are now saying that you are all for the science that is taught in formal education, and you are ready to retract your erroneous statements that pharmaceuticals, diamonds, emeralds and non-ferrous metals create magnetic anomalies that can be detected?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

J player, you have never been interested in the Facts, or the truth, because it contradicts the Skeptic agenda, and would expose your group as liars. This would subject James Randi, and Carl Morland, and several others to liable. And, you know that they, or their followers are not about to let that happen. Your organization of Scientific pretenders would fall.

You untruthfully described the X-Scan, and the DDL, from your imagination to discredit me personally and the products I use, and your description is totally inaccurate. A Lie! I have always said the X-Scan, is NOT a Frequency generator.

Also, I wonder - If you really are not against science or formal education, then why do you insist that the science that is taught in formal education is wrong?
-- We see you are advancing your theory that the formal science education which teaches that non-ferrous metals and pharmaceuticals do not create magnetic anomalies is not correct.

Or did I misunderstand your post, and you are now saying that you are all for the science that is taught in formal education, and you are ready to retract your erroneous statements that pharmaceuticals, diamonds, emeralds and non-ferrous metals create magnetic anomalies that can be detected?

This is your description, not mine. I state that the Earth Magnetic field concentrates in varying degrees around buried, and surface anomalies, and this "Field" can be detected by hand held L-Rods, and some LRL's, Electronic, or non-electronic

All you seem to want to do is argue and perpetrate the Randi/Morland lie. Your erroneous imagination does not reflect Fact, or Truth, and definitely not true Science. My discussions with you on this forum have ended. Please don't continue to evoke my name in your deceptive charade. Dell

[Dave J.]

. I state that the Earth Magnetic field concentrates in varying degrees around buried, and surface anomalies, and this "Field" can be detected by hand held L-Rods, and some LRL's, Electronic, or non-electronic. Dell

Well, you LRL fans, now we're getting somewhere. There's a thing you can buy for about $5 US called a lensatic compass, which is engineered specifically to measure the ambient magnetic field (earth field and anomalies in same), but with ideomotor response specifically engineered out (because it would interfere with magnetometry). With virtually no skill at all, a lensatic compass can be used to determine the horizontal component of the field vector within 5 degrees of accuracy, and with skill and experience you can do 1 degree.

I daresay that Dell Winders Himself has used lensatic compasses and can verify from personal knowledge and experience what I just said.

L-rods are useless for this same purpose, in fact they would be useless for dowsing if they indicated the magnetic field vector because they'd always want to point nearly (magnetic) north or south. In principle a magnetic steel L-rod could be used as a magnetic compass, but with so much working against it, I've never heard of it being done, it'd never outperform a $5 real compass.

Most L-rods used in LRL practice aren't even made of magnetic steel, according to reports it's most often brass although the actual material doesn't really matter. In utility locating dowsing practice, the most common L-rod material is ordinary magnetic steel coathanger wire, and the system is so insensitive to the ambient magnetic field that I've never heard a single report that the earth's magnetic field kept aligning the things north or south defeating the dowse.

LESSON #1: if you believe that LRL's are aligning with the earth field and its anomalies, for five bucks you can buy something that's scientifically designed to do precisely that. I predict that not even Dell whom I quoted above will deny that this is what compasses do. (I don't think that even Hung or Dedevil would deny it.)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Magnetometry has been around for hundreds of years, and some of the people who post here are quite familiar with the technology, including having designed and built working magnetometers. We're hard to BS about this stuff.

Then you've got the people who post here who know nothing about magnetics and magnetic fields other than that they're mysterious, and therefore great subject material for fairy tales.

Burying an object disturbs the local magnetic field even if the object buried is nonferrous. The reason it disturbs the local magnetic field is that the soil profile (which contains iron minerals) is disturbed by the burial process, and the buried object itself displaces what was previously soil or rocks. This fact is the basis of buried object location using precision magnetometry. The anomaly involved is virtually always too weak to detect with a good hand-held compass, it requires better equipment. And, it does not work from a distance because the energy of a dipole magnetic anomaly diminishes as the sixth power of the distance. There's no assurance that you can detect the burial site even when you're directly over the top of it because in addition to the anomalies associated with the disturbance of the soil profile, there are also naturally occurring anomalies and often manmade disturbances (for instance your belt buckle) that throw everything off.

The fairy tales that come from inability to reason even about an ordinary hand compass make anything you want possible, from pseudoscience LRL's to infinite energy machines and bogus health products. The problem with all of this, is that the Universe doesn't knuckle under to fairy tales created by ignorant mortals. The Universe testifies on its own behalf every day and in every way and is not hiding anywhere. That's what's wonderful about science: it is (as aptly described by Stephen Hawking) the quest to know the mind of God. Better to know that mind as best one can, than to substitute the fairy tales of mortals and to be satisfied with those.

[Aside to Dedevil: Jesus the despised Nazorean knew what the heck he was doing, he was neither teaching fairy tales nor was he demoing your "dowsing with half a dead fish, hence divine" fairy tale.]

LESSON #2: the basics of magnetic locating aren't hard to understand, and they utterly refute the assertions of LRL fans such as the pseudoscience which Dell posted here. He should have known better, what on earth was he thinking?

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

An L-rod is a dowsing device. Its purpose is to serve as a mediator of ideomotor response. If it doesn't do that, it won't work. One of the funniest things about dowsing inclusive of LRL's is that everyone knows this! If you propose a dowsing apparatus that is designed to eliminate insofar as is possible ideomotor response, even the people who deny there is any such thing as ideomotor response will tell you the damn thing won't work! An ordinary magnetic compass is an example of such that everyone is familiar with. Useless for dowsing. Everyone agrees that if you mount an L-rod on a tripod and try to get it to follow a target, it ain't gonna do it. Everyone agrees that if you counterbalance an L-rod so if you tilt your hand it doesn't steer the direction you aim it, it ain't gonna work.

LESSON #3: L-rods are all about ideomotor response. 100%. Not 99%.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

What distinguishes LRL's from plain vanilla dowsing, is the bogus electronic stuff. It comes in amazingly wide variety, all the way from L-rods which are claimed to contain electronic stuff but don't, to a strange monstrosity on Thomas' website that looks like a cross between a crashed mountain bike and bits of stuff salvaged from airplane crash cockpit debris. (In fairness to Dell, his stuff is pretty middle-of-the road, not at either of those two extremes.)

Dell is big on "molecular frequency discrimination". That whole schtick of course contradicts what he said about the earth's magnetic field. But what it has in common with magnetic fields is that if you don't actually know anything about molecular frequencies, then they can be anything that fits your favorite fairy tale.

I can tell the valence state of iron all the way from here to Mars utilizing the principle of molecular frequency discrimination. The principle really exists! I can see with my naked eye that the color of Mars is red, and knowing that the visible surface of Mars is minerals, I can tell you that the iron is ferric, not ferrous. (From the perspective of planetary evolution science, this shows that Mars either has or had at one time an oxidative rather than reducing atmosphere, interplanetary minerals being primarily in the reduced state.)

From the perspective of LRL'ers, real molecular frequency discrimination is a despicable thing that jerks the rug out from under their fairy tales. They refuse to talk about real molecular frequency discrimination, because the real thing commits the unforgivable sin of making a mockery of the fairy tale thing.

One of the best documentaries on molecular frequency LRL fraud is Chuckie's patent. He goes into a mixture of real science and pseudoscience about the nature of nuclear magnetic resonance, and then without disclosing any means by which his apparatus invokes this phenomenon or causes L-rods to point to targets, he claims that nonetheless the L-rods do that. It's a classic example of patent fraud: no means is disclosed to produced the claimed result, nor is information provided whereby anyone else might replicate the apparatus and get the claimed result.

Such is the sorry state of the USPTO these days. It's not equipped to do its job of promoting US technological innovation, so as a matter of our own government's policies the action is being steered to China. I'll spare y'all the essay on why the US government would intentionally forfeit the technology race.

LESSON #4: MFD in connection with LRL's is fraudulent. Real frauds do exist, and LRL MFD is an example of such.

******************************

Meanwhile, there's what I call plain vanilla dowsing, no bogus electronics. There's another forum here for that subject. There is also a separate forum for so-called LRL's that don't have swivels, which neither detect buried treasures nor do they afford the luxury of the self-deceptions available with ordinary dowsing. (No wonder they have such a bad reputation!)

LESSON #5: If you want to understand why actual LRL users believe the things work in the field, ya gotta start with plain vanilla dowsing and the problems that surround that. The swivelly thingies do swivel, ideomotor response kicks in, and therefore the tendency of L-rods to point to stuff continues to be reported.

--Dave J.

[Dell Winders]

WOW! that's some rant. Carl Morland & James Randi, must be proud of you.

Too bad, you are only pretending to know what you are talking about. Dell