Why cant metal detectors have longer ranges like 100 meters or higher?

[Carl-NC]

I compare it to learning to play golf. Many people do not have the patience. And I always get a chuckle when someone who can't use a set of L-rods tries to tell others they can't possibly work. That's the Natural Selection process in action.

If someone claims to be a golfer, would he be able to demonstrate his golfing skills?
If someone claims to be a dowser, would he be able to demonstrate his dowsing skills?

[leviterande]

Mike, and all the experts or non experts out there.
I know this is off topic but I feel some points are good to see.


1-NMR

2-Low energy level spectra or the hyper fine splitting of atoms

3- Halo, aura, ionic effects, special field(?) of old buried minerals

4- emission of rays/em waves special to each element.(can with great certainty say that this is real but not 100% yet. I found out the frequencies emitted, measured, and calculated from a source unrelated to treasure hunting or lrl )

(3 and 4 not yet verified if 100% real or not yet, specially nr 3(?))


For any kind of any LRL these are 4 point of concern.

We have solid basis which is 1 and 2 but it is not over yet. You need to mostly though think about the Penetrability and strength of signal .

Lets take a closer look

1-NMR in Earths magn. field is in the auditory range so penetration through ground is very good but the signals are truly weak. s/n would be very poor. But can we detect it still yet with sensitive equipment? another problem is that Earths field varies along the surface so the NMR will also vary but perhaps not too much over shorter but still relatively large distances.

2- Very Specific frequency or frequencies to each element coming from the very minute splitting of the first state energy level of the electron itself. Good thing is that the frequency is not variable and is always distinct and fixed to each element! Two bad things however: penetration may not be good since the frequencies usually lie in the microwave range. Still , detection should be done if the depth arent big in the good kind of soil.However, even if this penetration problem is passed, you have again the problem of the signal strength to noise ratio. How good is the signal? It is weak. but can we detect it with sensitive equipment? that is a very vital question. Nr 1 and 2 are real and is one possible path to LRL. Nr4 which I see is perhaps the only final method ,-if real of course-could depend only on the sensitivity of the equipment.

Regards
Karl

[Mike(Mont)]

Ask James Randi. He witnessed Dell's MFD demo.

[reza vir]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
James Randi Born Randall James Hamilton Zwinge
August 7, 1928 (age 86)
Toronto, Ontario, Canada Nationality American Occupation Magician, illusionist, writer, skeptic Religion None (Atheist) [1] Spouse(s) Deyvi Peña (married 2013) Signature Website www.randi.org James Randi (born Randall James Hamilton Zwinge, August 7, 192 is a Canadian-American retired stage magician and scientific skeptic[2][3] best known for his challenges to paranormal claims and pseudoscience.[4] Randi is the founder of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF). He began his career as a magician named The Amazing Randi, but after retiring at age 60, he chose to devote most of his time to investigating paranormal, occult, and supernatural claims, which he collectively calls "woo-woo."[5]
Although often referred to as a "debunker," Randi dislikes the term's connotations and prefers to describe himself as an "investigator."[6] He has written about the paranormal, skepticism, and the history of magic. He was a frequent guest on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson and was occasionally featured on the television program Penn & Teller: Bull****! The JREF sponsors the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge offering a prize of US$1,000,000 to eligible applicants[7] who can demonstrate evidence of any paranormal, supernatural or occult power or event under test conditions agreed to by both parties.[8]

http://www.randi.org/site/

**********************************
see move

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqoYrSd94kA

************************************************** ****

Hi Mike, my friend
I think people do not pay attention because I believed myself, and I believe that it is absolutely perfect and I could get things out of the soil
Many people tried but failed
And many people are finding alternatives that you can treasure to try to get others to make fun of baseless things to know

[Mike(Mont)]

There are times the frequency generators do not work. Even the dowsing amplifier I build does not work some times. That's why you use a test target before and during every search. Also I only use one rod. Two is more sensitive but this can lead to false responses. I still practice with two rods now and then but I always put them away in favor of the rod I build the "Light Rod". My search techniques are different, too. And I also say some form of meditation is essential to any L-rod work. Let's not forget something here: the rods are not always the problem. The subtle energies can easily get blocked out and ignored by the user. Anyone who thinks they can pick up a pair of L-rods and learn to use them in twenty minutes is an ignorant fool. Everything must be learned so that you don't ever have to think about it. It don't take no rocket scientist to see the failures have not learned the essentials. Everybody wants it right now.

[J_Player]

Interesting, I got a feeling as well that Andreas may have a real working idea. but not 100% sure.

Coming from an area quite far from gold hunting, I have researched also old articles, scientists papers , (of course not related to treasure hunting) that could indicate the ability to detect at large ranges. nothing exact at all of course. Do you know any of these sources , you know the "not so much talked about methods" , or a name of a scientist or these methods known for possible use in LRL? I ask because you said this :

But there are real long range locators that do really find long time buried metals such as gold, silver, copper, bronze, aluminum and others reliably from a long distance. These are not available for the general public to buy, and you will not find anything published about this technology in any treasure hunting forum.


or did you just refer to Andreas?

Best Regards
Karl l.

Hi leviterande,
1.
The idea Andreas has is a correct idea. Both of the principles he uses are capable of detecting from a long distance, but both also have limitations which restrict their use to certain conditions. Andreas is not your typical LRL salesman. He is an electronic engineer who came here looking for a way to detect from long range just like you, and he spent a number of years researching and building prototypes before he found any kind of success in locating from a distance. The detection principles he uses do work. The only question is how well did he design his locators to reliably find buried treasure at a distance. This is something I don't know. I can only go by reports I received from forum friends who have used his locators. The reports I heard are good from all over the world, but I am only going by reports I heard, not hands-on experience.

If you decide to buy an LRL from him or anyone else, I would highly suggest you get it on a trial basis so you can test it for a week in the place where you hunt for treasure to make sure it works for you before handing over a large chunk of money. I know Andreas is not going to cheat anyone, and he might allow you to try one for awhile before you buy. But beware... most LRL companies are not willing to do that, in which case I would not buy no matter how good the advertising looks. most of what's available is crappy stuff you could build yourself for under $50 and doesn't work.

If you are interested in mfd principles, you might want to contact Tim Williams http://lrlman.com/ . He seems like an honest person who sells MFD and dowsing aid tools, as well as his own design electronics that will map out your search area to show slight anomalies you might find from various metal detectors and GPR devices. He also is an authorized dealer for the Crypton locators that Andreas designed. Personally, I have never seen any confirmed success of any kind from MFD, and the principles behind it are contradictory to known science, so I don't go there.
Again, I wouldn't buy anything unless I had a chance to test it and see if it works where I want to hunt for treasure first. If I don't see performance that puts a big smile on my face and new treasures in my treasure vault, then I would send it back.

2. Little known LRL methods:
The best methods for long range are already in use by geologists - they use a number of electronic devices that tell them where things are located under the ground. See below for more about that.
Little known methods include Gamma isotope detection, colorimetric evaluations (from satellites usually), and a few others which don't seem to practical to me.
Name of a scientist? Armin Bickel... built hand-held long range detectors which could locate gold silver, copper, oil, water bodies, kimberlite and other things in the ground from a distance more than 5000 feet. See here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...ad.php?t=11342


3. long range locating:
This is done mostly by geologists who are hired to find ore bodies at mines. They use a number of tools and instruments which might cost a half million dollars or more by the time their tool room is fully stocked. But their tools are designed to survey a large plot of land and map out what's under the ground in a large scale, while showing the hot spots where the ore is as well as other anomalies that the mine owner would want to know. Since we are hobby treasure hunters, we don't want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for equipment. We want a cheap magic box that tells us immediately where to dig a hole and recover a treasure. Of course, we get what we pay for. And in the case of most LRLS we get crap that's worth maybe $20 to $50 of useless electronic parts for a few thousand dollars and promises of finding treasure.
The way I see it, the really working equipment like geologists use is too expensive for a hobby, and it's not so well suited for finding small objects. And the cheap crap is a fast way to lose all your hobby money.
The only place in between is there are a few real electronic engineers who actually build things that they believe can work. If you can get them to build something they think works for you, and let you try it out first, there's a chance that you might have a locator that does something to help you find treasure from a distance.

4.
Yes, there are real long range locators that find gold, silver, copper, bronze, aluminum and others reliably from a long distance. But as I said, they are not available for you to buy, and if they were, you couldn't afford them.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[reza vir]

Sense differences in different countries

Hi, I'm J Player so happy you are back on the forum.
Everyone's goal is to build a device to be true
But all the devices and the relative weakness of the
The first metal device in different locations with different soil feels
mineoro I saw it in a metal can not rightly feel
But in other countries can sens metal
Devices behave differently in different places.

Best Regards

[leviterande]

Hi leviterande,
1.
The idea Andreas has is a correct idea. Both of the principles he uses are capable of detecting from a long distance, but both also have limitations which restrict their use to certain conditions. Andreas is not your typical LRL salesman. He is an electronic engineer who came here looking for a way to detect from long range just like you, and he spent a number of years researching and building prototypes before he found any kind of success in locating from a distance. The detection principles he uses do work. The only question is how well did he design his locators to reliably find buried treasure at a distance. This is something I don't know. I can only go by reports I received from forum friends who have used his locators. The reports I heard are good from all over the world, but I am only going by reports I heard, not hands-on experience.

If you decide to buy an LRL from him or anyone else, I would highly suggest you get it on a trial basis so you can test it for a week in the place where you hunt for treasure to make sure it works for you before handing over a large chunk of money. I know Andreas is not going to cheat anyone, and he might allow you to try one for awhile before you buy. But beware... most LRL companies are not willing to do that, in which case I would not buy no matter how good the advertising looks. most of what's available is crappy stuff you could build yourself for under $50 and doesn't work.

If you are interested in mfd principles, you might want to contact Tim Williams http://lrlman.com/ . He seems like an honest person who sells MFD and dowsing aid tools, as well as his own design electronics that will map out your search area to show slight anomalies you might find from various metal detectors and GPR devices. He also is an authorized dealer for the Crypton locators that Andreas designed. Personally, I have never seen any confirmed success of any kind from MFD, and the principles behind it are contradictory to known science, so I don't go there.
Again, I wouldn't buy anything unless I had a chance to test it and see if it works where I want to hunt for treasure first. If I don't see performance that puts a big smile on my face and new treasures in my treasure vault, then I would send it back.

2. Little known LRL methods:
The best methods for long range are already in use by geologists - they use a number of electronic devices that tell them where things are located under the ground. See below for more about that.
Little known methods include Gamma isotope detection, colorimetric evaluations (from satellites usually), and a few others which don't seem to practical to me.
Name of a scientist? Armin Bickel... built hand-held long range detectors which could locate gold silver, copper, oil, water bodies, kimberlite and other things in the ground from a distance more than 5000 feet. See here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...ad.php?t=11342


3. long range locating:
This is done mostly by geologists who are hired to find ore bodies at mines. They use a number of tools and instruments which might cost a half million dollars or more by the time their tool room is fully stocked. But their tools are designed to survey a large plot of land and map out what's under the ground in a large scale, while showing the hot spots where the ore is as well as other anomalies that the mine owner would want to know. Since we are hobby treasure hunters, we don't want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for equipment. We want a cheap magic box that tells us immediately where to dig a hole and recover a treasure. Of course, we get what we pay for. And in the case of most LRLS we get crap that's worth maybe $20 to $50 of useless electronic parts for a few thousand dollars and promises of finding treasure.
The way I see it, the really working equipment like geologists use is too expensive for a hobby, and it's not so well suited for finding small objects. And the cheap crap is a fast way to lose all your hobby money.
The only place in between is there are a few real electronic engineers who actually build things that they believe can work. If you can get them to build something they think works for you, and let you try it out first, there's a chance that you might have a locator that does something to help you find treasure from a distance.

4.
Yes, there are real long range locators that find gold, silver, copper, bronze, aluminum and others reliably from a long distance. But as I said, they are not available for you to buy, and if they were, you couldn't afford them.

Best Wishes,
J_P

Interesting. One question first. does the detector needs to be almost directly above the ore regardless of altitude of airplane or satellite? or can this detector find an ore from a distance or different latitude equally well? I suspect only directly above?

This method is really detecting very very weak signals. But does the signal depend on altitude from the ore or is signal change with altitude negligible?

[J_Player]

Interesting. One question first. does the detector needs to be almost directly above the ore regardless of altitude of airplane or satellite? or can this detector find an ore from a distance or different latitude equally well? I suspect only directly above?

This method is really detecting very very weak signals. But does the signal depend on altitude from the ore or is signal change with altitude negligible?

Hi leviterande,
The Bickel isotope detector is used to make a survey of a plot of ground from above. It can be used in a satellite, an airplane, a car, or by hand when walking over the ground, and holding the scintillator probe downward. The data map that is generated is about the same regardless of what altitude, but at satellite heights, the resolution is not as good as when measuring from a plane or on the ground, which give the same resolution. The probe consists of a lead tube that is open at one end to expose a scintillator crystal. While the crystal is shielded from light, the open lead end allows gamma and alpha radiation to pass through the light filter. The purpose of the lead tube is to shield gamma from entering at the sides, and only enter through the open end. A photomultiplier behind the crystal converts tiny flashes of light to electrical signals which are analyzed, then sent to a counter to determine how many counts are coming from a gold isotope (or other materials that are being searched for). This device will give meaningful data only when it is pointed downward and used to make a survey of a plot of land. In theory, you may be able to rig it to work for searching an area at an angle different than down, but I have not heard of it being used in that way.

The signals are extremely weak as you say. Dr. Bickel told me it is best to use this detector at times of the day when the solar activity is low. Otherwise the noise from the solar activity interferes with getting reliable readings. He recommended mornings before noon, around 10am for the work he did in the western USA and in Mexico.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[leviterande]

Hi leviterande,
The Bickel isotope detector is used to make a survey of a plot of ground from above. It can be used in a satellite, an airplane, a car, or by hand when walking over the ground, and holding the scintillator probe downward. The data map that is generated is about the same regardless of what altitude, but at satellite heights, the resolution is not as good as when measuring from a plane or on the ground, which give the same resolution. The probe consists of a lead tube that is open at one end to expose a scintillator crystal. While the crystal is shielded from light, the open lead end allows gamma and alpha radiation to pass through the light filter. The purpose of the lead tube is to shield gamma from entering at the sides, and only enter through the open end. A photomultiplier behind the crystal converts tiny flashes of light to electrical signals which are analyzed, then sent to a counter to determine how many counts are coming from a gold isotope (or other materials that are being searched for). This device will give meaningful data only when it is pointed downward and used to make a survey of a plot of land. In theory, you may be able to rig it to work for searching an area at an angle different than down, but I have not heard of it being used in that way.

The signals are extremely weak as you say. Dr. Bickel told me it is best to use this detector at times of the day when the solar activity is low. Otherwise the noise from the solar activity interferes with getting reliable readings. He recommended mornings before noon, around 10am for the work he did in the western USA and in Mexico.

Best Wishes,
J_P

It would be valuable to know whether the detector works also at other directions than perpendicular to earth surface. I stumble always upon this feat-that it needs to be directly above the source- in many pre WWII books. dont get me wrong. having a low flying plane with this device on board and flying over a suspect area over all the rocks, soil lakes and trees and get accurate data regardless of the terrain is really extremely helpful and wonderful but it is not to be compared with the ability to "point-scan" and area, i.e. stand in a forest, aim the device forward and rotate around you left or right until you find a signal.

Actually the "point+scan" ability should work just as well for the Bickel device. If point and scan does not work than, this means something big and important, (unnoticed by many) and perhaps confirming one cruicial point one more time during my research: those so called gamma radiations of the atom that are detected are not coming from the atom, they are coming from outer space. rays of extreme penetration imparting earth and all of its elements interacting with the atom. Obviously the highest penetration happens at 90 degrees from surface. Lots of materials indicate this as well or Something close to this. These are called vertical beams emanating from all elements. And that is what dowsers feel.

Nothing is written in stone yet though

[leviterande]

I am not sure if to continue here, but: Fruits of experiments indicate that all elements emit specific radiations in the mhz. To my knowledge this is not isotope decay, hyper fine structure, NMR or emission spectra related. Research and work indicates that a sensitive receiver in the microwave range is needed. How sensitive to overcome noise and have a good S/N? I am not sure. Cryo cooled first stage semiconducting amplifiers are new but are here for ultra low noise first stage amplification. That coupled with an ultra Q-value and High gain antenna., Should give highest sensitivity. But, I am not a radio engineer so I am still looking for a method to receive very weak specific signals in the microwave range. If there is anyone here that is an expert in the area you are welcome to discuss.

[Mike(Mont)]

The frequency discriminators use many different frequencies, but not too many in the MHz range. Most are below 10KHz, many in the hundreds of Hertz. There is a website something like radio below 22KHz.

No, I'm no expert but I know what is being used and it's the low frequencies. Remember the magnetic component of the scalar wave is only wavelength/2Pi. Your high MHz will not travel more than a few inches at 300MHz. Wavelength is one meter divided by 2Pi is about 6 1/2 inches. That's not even as good as a metal detector.

[leviterande]

I now realise I am really not sure if this is the correct place to post this, maybe Geotech is better?
At any rate, back to the subject of this thread about plainly detecting metal objects from a distance by simple good old electromagnetic means, I found something interesting relating exactly to what I was searching.
Apparently, military grade Spaceborne and Airborne UWB GPR SAR systems can detect precisely with high resolution small metallic mines UNDER the surface, BUT! this is not why I am surprised. High resolution SAR imaging is known, it wasnt either the nice fact that they could detect objects under the ground surface, penetrating through the trees and foliage.

If anyone knows radar, you know clutter is the highest wall. I was taken that they used EMIS+ "other methods" to discriminate against the clutter!. That is tremendous. We are talking about altitudes over 400 meters!! detecting small mines under the surface in forest! This is highly interesting as the images were very satisfactory. So perhaps after all there is a direct straightforward remote way. And perhaps they are just detecting the very subtle magnetic inductions as the final step to discriminate against soil variation spots, clutter and other false natural spots.. I am not sure though exactly how, because sensitivity would be extraterritoriality high. Some more details are hard to find.

[Funfinder]

We shouldn't call this stuff locators or detectors, but: guessers.
If they work at all they work on the "pipe locator" long-wave radio wave concentration or
reflection principle, passive (without transmitter) or active.
And some are also detecting distortions of the earths magnetical field.

So those detectors are far away from reliability and it's no wonder that all of the
producers or sellers of them avoid scientifical testing at all costs!
They don't wanna get a proven "it does not work"-certificate, it would ruin all
their efforts, their business and in what they believe.

Holding dowsing rods is the same absurd as holding a crucifix to detect with it
what person is possessed by demons! People feel or detect alot if they have too much time!


What in 100 years really could, I say "could!!!" work, is perfectionated backscatter-
technology. It would work like reflecting radar but on very "sharp" x-rays or even
gamma-rays which can penetrate the ground also from a larger distance.
But the receiving unit must have extreme high definition and methods like
with satellite-signals to concentrate the weak signals will not work because
most of the reflected waves will go straight through the metal.

Modern usual GPRs work with signals from 3 to 300 MHz,where the shorter waves
can not penetrate the ground much deep but have better resolution for smaller
objects while the longer waves are for deeper and larger structures.
But more than 5 meters (15 ft) they can not penetrate with reliable results.


The main thing that is going on here in this forum is providing unprovable claims
from those who are shure they have working LRL-devices!
All of them ignore the possiblity that the creator of this forum would test those
as real working presented devices!
Of course they must refuse such an offer, because they know how unreliable
their stuff works! And all those "I have bought a LRL and it is real working" guys here also
refuse to give away their wannabe working LRL to a real test!
What do they have to lose?
Are they afraid that someone could discover them as liars or sweettalkers or even
as promoters for those from where they got their stuff?!

Clear electronical work looks different! There is absolutly no doubt the Playstation 4
works! Even all those new video games have to be test-played many times before
they are allowed to hit the market!

Those LRLs are more like Alladins wonderlamp! Pseudo-electronical Fairytale-products!
Some sort of wishdream of mankind that in almost all cases remains just a wishdream!

And for LRL believers perhaps the land around Syria and Irak could be a fine place -
there are many hidden treasures and many believers, too....
From this region everyone can learn to what results stubborn believing leads!

[J_Player]

hi JP
after pass long time , i am happy meet you again here .

Hi aft,
Thank you. It's good to see you are still here too.
I am only here temporarily, but I will post when I have time for it.

Best wishes,
J_P