Why cant metal detectors have longer ranges like 100 meters or higher?

[WM6]

I will post when I have time for it.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hope not to rare.

Best wishes to you to, J_P.

[leviterande]

We shouldn't call this stuff locators or detectors, but: guessers.
If they work at all they work on the "pipe locator" long-wave radio wave concentration or
reflection principle, passive (without transmitter) or active.
And some are also detecting distortions of the earths magnetical field.

So those detectors are far away from reliability and it's no wonder that all of the
producers or sellers of them avoid scientifical testing at all costs!
They don't wanna get a proven "it does not work"-certificate, it would ruin all
their efforts, their business and in what they believe.

Holding dowsing rods is the same absurd as holding a crucifix to detect with it
what person is possessed by demons! People feel or detect alot if they have too much time!


What in 100 years really could, I say "could!!!" work, is perfectionated backscatter-
technology. It would work like reflecting radar but on very "sharp" x-rays or even
gamma-rays which can penetrate the ground also from a larger distance.
But the receiving unit must have extreme high definition and methods like
with satellite-signals to concentrate the weak signals will not work because
most of the reflected waves will go straight through the metal.

Modern usual GPRs work with signals from 3 to 300 MHz,where the shorter waves
can not penetrate the ground much deep but have better resolution for smaller
objects while the longer waves are for deeper and larger structures.
But more than 5 meters (15 ft) they can not penetrate with reliable results.


The main thing that is going on here in this forum is providing unprovable claims
from those who are shure they have working LRL-devices!
All of them ignore the possiblity that the creator of this forum would test those
as real working presented devices!
Of course they must refuse such an offer, because they know how unreliable
their stuff works! And all those "I have bought a LRL and it is real working" guys here also
refuse to give away their wannabe working LRL to a real test!
What do they have to lose?
Are they afraid that someone could discover them as liars or sweettalkers or even
as promoters for those from where they got their stuff?!

Clear electronical work looks different! There is absolutly no doubt the Playstation 4
works! Even all those new video games have to be test-played many times before
they are allowed to hit the market!

Those LRLs are more like Alladins wonderlamp! Pseudo-electronical Fairytale-products!
Some sort of wishdream of mankind that in almost all cases remains just a wishdream!

And for LRL believers perhaps the land around Syria and Irak could be a fine place -
there are many hidden treasures and many believers, too....
From this region everyone can learn to what results stubborn believing leads!

Hi, I am not sure if you talk about everything here or just the LRL that are everywhere that are scams. Yes 99,9% of all these lrl if not 100% are just huge scams.

I was referring to a gpr SAR system used by the military. they are finding, discriminating and identifying buried mines , through the tree canopy and all the clutter by many advanced spectral methods. They showed a picture before discriminating where there are many similar spots but after signal processing and spectral analysis methods they almost completely eliminated false alarms. It seems a complex method/methods though are used.

[J_Player]

It would be valuable to know whether the detector works also at other directions than perpendicular to earth surface. I stumble always upon this feat-that it needs to be directly above the source- in many pre WWII books. dont get me wrong. having a low flying plane with this device on board and flying over a suspect area over all the rocks, soil lakes and trees and get accurate data regardless of the terrain is really extremely helpful and wonderful but it is not to be compared with the ability to "point-scan" and area, i.e. stand in a forest, aim the device forward and rotate around you left or right until you find a signal.

Actually the "point+scan" ability should work just as well for the Bickel device. If point and scan does not work than, this means something big and important, (unnoticed by many) and perhaps confirming one cruicial point one more time during my research: those so called gamma radiations of the atom that are detected are not coming from the atom, they are coming from outer space. rays of extreme penetration imparting earth and all of its elements interacting with the atom. Obviously the highest penetration happens at 90 degrees from surface. Lots of materials indicate this as well or Something close to this. These are called vertical beams emanating from all elements. And that is what dowsers feel.

Nothing is written in stone yet though

Hi leviterande,

In order to know whether the gamma isotope detector works in other directions, you must first understand what it is sensing. This machine detects gamma rays entering into the open end of a lead tube. This open tube end shields gamma rays from entering at the sides, so what you are sensing is basically a cone pattern that looks like the light pattern that a flashlight sends out. The cone angle can be narrow or wide, depending on how deep the scintillator crystal is embedded into the tube. For sake of discussion, let us assume a 10 degree cone angle which gamma rays can enter the end of the tube and pass into the detector crystal to be detected.
Now, more important than the cone angle of the sensor is the source of the gamma rays. These gamma rays are emitted from a gold atom in the ground when it a nuclide from radioactive decaying material (usually much deeper in the ground) collides with a gold atom. However, gold is fairly rare in the ground as a percentage of earth material, so only small traces of gamma rays come from the lumps of gold metal and gold veins found naturally in the ground. Fortunately there are a number of chemical processes which actually corrode gold and most other metals in trace amounts and cause ions of these metals to leach into the soil and disperse so they will occupy a larger volume of ground than the original gold metal that is buried. Over a very long period of time, the gold ions (or other metal ions) that are leaching out of the metal will begin to rise in a vertical column toward the surface of the ground. This leaves a trail of gold ions dissolved in the ground to form a vertical column directly above the buried metal. This vertical column has been measured to continue toward the surface for gold deposits that are buried up too 5000 feet deep. Now, if you consider a plot of ground that has a number of buried gold objects scattered in various amounts across the land, we would have a number of vertical columns of gold ions above a number of gold deposits. Because of the geometry of these ion columns, a radioactive nuclide is much more likely to collide with gold ions in the columns than the original metal gold deposits, which are much smaller. But regardless of how the nuclide collides with a gold atom, whether it is part of a metal lattice or an ion, the same gamma rays are emitted in greater amounts from the larger target area of this long column of gold ions above the gold metal.

Then we look at the directional properties of the gamma emissions from the columns and the actual gold metal at the bottom (which is actually a part of the column). If we make a traditional grid survey from above, we can expect the best precision, because the we are measuring from the top of many the columns where the contrast is expected to be better than if we measure at an angle. The length of this column dictates that it will focus the gamma emissions to come from a source only as wide as the column of gold ions. When we move our detector along the grid to a location that has no column of ions, then our readings drop to a normal background level for traces of gold that are not massive enough to create any sizable corrosion. Remember we are working with an assumed 10 degree cone angle of view, so we will have some loss of resolution when neighboring columns of ions are picked up within this cone of view.

Now suppose we use the probe with a point and scan technique. The first disadvantage is we lose the sharp contrast we had when we were sampling only from directly above the tops of these ion columns. If we measure the gamma count from the side of the column, we will see an anomaly which is not focused into a single point with the diameter of the top of the column. Instead, we will see the side of a column with a weaker signal strength, without any clear idea where to put the shovel until we do some vertical detecting to pinpoint the top. What the probe will be seeing in the horizontal scan position is the side of an ion column, and possibly the side of several other ion columns behind it or in front of it, as well as up to 5 degrees to either side. Yet with this loss of precision, it still may be useful for finding metals that have been buried a long time.
The problem of detecting the side of several columns can be mitigated by a person who is on foot by simply moving the probe around and tracking down the several columns from different angles. This seems not much harder than using a metal detector to find a small evasive item when you are digging. Another thing that can be done is to narrow the cone angle by extending the lead tube length to reduce the cone angle to maybe 5 degrees or less. This will improve the horizontal accuracy. But you will still need to move around and follow the target areas from different positions in your search field before you will pinpoint it. Of course, the final pinpointing would be done as a vertical scan across an area that is maybe 20-40 feet diameter to find where to put your shovel.

A final precaution: The gamma detectors are capable of detecting fresh metallic gold. But in practice, the users in the field say they only find gold that has been buried a long time (meaning 50 years or more). This points to the time it takes for the gold to corrode and traces of gold ions to leach into the soil and form the column of ions above the gold object. When treasure hunting, The gold treasures are much smaller than what geologists are looking for. Essentially the entire search plan is scaled down to micro size. Instead of finding an ion column anomaly that is 20 feet diameter above a ton of natural gold in rocks 500 feet deep, we are looking for a column on the order of 8" diameter and only as deep as the treasure is buried. This will require that the gamma detector is built with the best materials and designed to reject environmental noise, because the gamma anomalies we are trying to pick up are so much smaller than what geologists are looking for. Also consider there may be natural gold buried very deep that has raised the background gold ion count of the soil, so your treasure anomaly is only a small percentage of the total gold gamma signal you pick up. The fact that it is an anomaly should still be detectable, even with a high background count. But your biggest hazard is noise from solar/magnetic sources. How practical is this? I don't know. It depends on the cost of parts if you are a tinker who will build it yourself. Parts cost around $1200 back in the day when Dr. Bickel was building his state of the art machines. But today we have better parts, and they are cheaper for many of them. Instead of using discrete logic chips like he did, we can use a single logic module, or an asic to do the processing. The only high tech parts you need are the sodium iodide crystal and photomultiplier. Do not skimp on the scintillator crystal. The cheap ones don't compare to quality parts, and they stop working after a couple of years. There are also other scintillator sensors available today that were not available back then. Be sure you get something that will respond to the gamma from Au 196 and the resultant signal can be processed to discriminate the spectral data in your logic module.


Best Wishes,
J_P


P.S. If this "ion column" stuff sounds weird to you, it did to me too until I read how it is a muilti-million dollar industry to find gold, copper and other metals at minesites. Read here for more about that: http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...3&postcount=29
There are links at the bottom that will lead you to some amazing discoveries in the past 20 years about things happening to metals in the ground.

[leviterande]

JP, aha, ok, I see, I didnt know Bickel principle worked on ions, ions in the mix takes this whole thing to a whole new different dimension . of course it would be best to point directly downwards for best detection. But, if it was simple EM waves radiating from the gold source as I originally thought , then, an omni field would exist instead.
It seems gamma spectroscopy isnt too much expensive or far, but remotely detecting the gamma seems very very far from our reach . I hope I am wrong

Karl

[J_Player]

JP, aha, ok, I see, I didnt know Bickel principle worked on ions, ions in the mix takes this whole thing to a whole new different dimension . of course it would be best to point directly downwards for best detection. But, if it was simple EM waves radiating from the gold source as I originally thought , then, an omni field would exist instead.
It seems gamma spectroscopy isnt too much expensive or far, but remotely detecting the gamma seems very very far from our reach . I hope I am wrong

Karl

Hi leviterande,
gamma detection may not be so far from our reach. The parts are cheap now, and today's technology makes it a lot more simple... but only for people who have a good knowledge of current electronics, and have a workbench to build things on. While downwards gives the best resolution, sideways could work to give you muttled general directions until you get near the target, where you start pointing the thing down to pinpoint. The hand-held gamma detector Dr. Bickel showed me in the 1980s was the size of a notebook computer with a chord hanging off the side that had a flashlight-sized probe attached to the end. Today's version would be the same, except would probably have a netbook-sized electronic box instead of notebook.

Moving away from gamma detection, there are EM waves in the air that are influenced by the ground at locations where gold has been buried a long time. As a general concept, a treasure hunter could tune into one of these EM wave sources and follow it to find the anomaly where buried gold is located. A more likely method would be to enhance this technique by adding your own transmissions which could make the anomaly more visible.
What I just said is the basis for the existence of the entire longrangelocators forum. This is what everyone is making forum posts about.
But nobody in this forum has ever looked to real science to make it happen... they all prefer stupid methods like these:
1. I built an unstable oscillator with an antenna connected, and it gets gold signals when I move it near buried gold.
Ummm... I mean it does sometimes... Now don't come around to test my gizmo, cause it's a secret...
2. I got my swivel rod thingy... it points to treasure, but only if I have a pure mind. And it will work for you too, ... but only if you have a pure mind..
Now don't come around to test my swivelly gizmo, cause I can't tolerate un-pure minds where I am dowsing.
3. Ditto for MFD and frequency generators.

If you shovel the rubbish aside, you will find that there remains some real science left that shows promise for the ability to do reliable long range locating for small objects. I recently posted the key data that is needed to make this happen. But this information is safely hidden in the open where all of the superstitious LRL hobbyists ignore it. If you want to use real electronic principles to locate from a distance, the answers are in this thread http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...ad.php?t=19030 . Read the whole thread, and it will become apparent that there is more to buried gold than you think. I detailed the entire process, while not mentioning any of the preferred methods to stimulate the treasure site or to detect it. I did this intentionally, so only the readers who actually believe in electronics and science will be able to recognize the significance. And only the best of the electronic engineers will go to the trouble to spend some time researching the missing parts, such as .. what kind of EM wave is best for detecting? What kind of spectrum analyzer do I need to design into this gizmo? How do I calibrate to keep the background noise under control? How much should I stimulate the ground where I am searching? etc.

Is this hard?
Yes... If you believe in the "phenomenon" and signal lines, and NMR working outside of a laboratory.

But if you believe in science and electronics, you may have a few months or more to figure out the details.
It's not that hard.... You don't have to build professional grade instruments -- it works with readily available parts.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[leviterande]

Good, J-P I think we are on similar common ground. I will read about that more and come back to you . On a note, I am all for principles. it is all about the principle, finding it and use it. not the vast LRL phony ocean. the electronic magic boxes.

I may not have forwarded one point. I am aware of treasure hunting and was never interested because the reasons you have already mentioned of phony lrls. My area of study is far away from this forum. It was a book/source I read, that much later, caught my attention for solid real straightforward detecting. It dealt with undeniable evidence and proof by a researcher and engineers before WWII. Mind you, I did not buy the book for treasure hunting but for other scientific exploration.

In short, it was found that all elements emit specific radiations in the radio range and they detected it using a plethora of instruments. I have the numbers down to better than 0,0001hz. The goal was thus to see what kind of receiving equipment I need to detect these weak signals with electronic devices. S/N ratio is obviously the biggest hurdle but I thought that our modern era of electronics should allow us to detect that. I contacted several sites about what sensitive equipment is the best but it is not a straight forward subject. All radio equipment are unfortunately made for wide band use, what we need is a very narrow band. custom works is perhaps the only way.
It seems that a cryo-cooled semconductor is the latest in S/N battle.

Regards
Karl

[Mike(Mont)]

Hey Karl, just remember joke_player is a failed dowser. Of course the big cop out is to claim the equipment can't possibly work when it's the operator who makes or breaks it. This is the classic case of "prostitute the intellect to defend the ego". And nobody wants to admit they are dumber than a hillbilly or redneck when it comes to frequency generators and L-rods.

[Mike(Mont)]

It's funny how the failed dowsers/skeptics all think they are an authority on the subject of L-rods and frequency generators. When you choose the negative, you are blinded to the truth. That's the Natural Selection process. They chose to make the cop-out.

[J_Player]

Good, J-P I think we are on similar common ground. I will read about that more and come back to you . On a note, I am all for principles. it is all about the principle, finding it and use it. not the vast LRL phony ocean. the electronic magic boxes.

I may not have forwarded one point. I am aware of treasure hunting and was never interested because the reasons you have already mentioned of phony lrls. My area of study is far away from this forum. It was a book/source I read, that much later, caught my attention for solid real straightforward detecting. It dealt with undeniable evidence and proof by a researcher and engineers before WWII. Mind you, I did not buy the book for treasure hunting but for other scientific exploration.

In short, it was found that all elements emit specific radiations in the radio range and they detected it using a plethora of instruments. I have the numbers down to better than 0,0001hz. The goal was thus to see what kind of receiving equipment I need to detect these weak signals with electronic devices. S/N ratio is obviously the biggest hurdle but I thought that our modern era of electronics should allow us to detect that. I contacted several sites about what sensitive equipment is the best but it is not a straight forward subject. All radio equipment are unfortunately made for wide band use, what we need is a very narrow band. custom works is perhaps the only way.
It seems that a cryo-cooled semconductor is the latest in S/N battle.

Regards
Karl

Hi leviterande,
I also have read books from before WWII that describe anomalies where buried items are. But my sources describe how early researchers were measuring man-made RF from various kinds of broadcast station transmitters whereby the waves tend to align or become disturbed where anomalies exist, much the way directors and reflectors are used in yagi antennas. This effect was caused mostly by objects on the surface such as building corners, but they also measured where the RF would align at underground objects, and other geological anomalies such as bodies of water and ore reefs. Again, the S/N ratio was the biggest obstacle when they searched for patterns for subterranean anomalies.

What I have not read about is specific RF radiations coming from buried elements.
Where can we read this book that describes the specific RF radiations that the researcher measured?

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

You can also study up on ground radio. Also Lockheed Martin developed an underground communications system. As I recall they could transmit voice about a half mile on such low power as to not create a spark. But since you want to listen to the skeptics who can't locate, well I tried to help you. I have other devices I built which I've found gold and silver with, but the MFD type equipment is where my heart is. I really thought you might have a chance at an open mind on this. I'd tell you about the electronic receivers for MFD so you don't have to use L-rods, but I'm not wasting any more time.

[J_Player]

You can also study up on ground radio. Also Lockheed Martin developed an underground communications system. As I recall they could transmit voice about a half mile on such low power as to not create a spark. But since you want to listen to the skeptics who can't locate, well I tried to help you. I have other devices I built which I've found gold and silver with, but the MFD type equipment is where my heart is. I really thought you might have a chance at an open mind on this. I'd tell you about the electronic receivers for MFD so you don't have to use L-rods, but I'm not wasting any more time.

Hi Mike,
How's the weather in Montana?
Last time I was there the night view was fantastic. I could see millions of stars.
Don't let leviterande's complacency to MFD deter you.
Why not tell us the details about how we can use MFD to find treasures?
I am all ears.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

Hung was talking about a "dielectric discharge". Sounds like some kind or sprite or something. Don't know, but reminded me a out about an article I read on pyramid energy and a frequency generator signal in the ground. Can't find that article and already spent too long looking for it.
Anyway it wasn't dielectric discharge but something alone those lines.
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Learning to recognize the body response, well I guess it's about self-mastery. I learned with a GSR meter and phony black cox contraption. Just your basic dowsing.

I know everybody does it, but there can't be any lying to oneself. Yeah, there are many more pathological liars than most would think. Of course that takes us right to the goals that meditation can teach--a quiet mind, a pure, clear focus and an expanded awareness. Sounds simple. It is, but it takes plenty of determination to get there. Mike say: "A quiet mind tells no lies."

[J_Player]

Hung was talking about a "dielectric discharge". Sounds like some kind or sprite or something. Don't know, but reminded me a out about an article I read on pyramid energy and a frequency generator signal in the ground. Can't find that article and already spent too long looking for it.
Anyway it wasn't dielectric discharge but something alone those lines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Learning to recognize the body response, well I guess it's about self-mastery. I learned with a GSR meter and phony black cox contraption. Just your basic dowsing.

I know everybody does it, but there can't be any lying to oneself. Yeah, there are many more pathological liars than most would think. Of course that takes us right to the goals that meditation can teach--a quiet mind, a pure, clear focus and an expanded awareness. Sounds simple. It is, but it takes plenty of determination to get there. Mike say: "A quiet mind tells no lies."

Are these the details for how we can use MFD to find treasures?
This is great news!
I am sure leviterande will be anxious to use these methods to search the large treasure hunting area he has in mind.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

The problem is the pathological liars tend to believe their own lies. They never even consider that they are their own worst enemy. That's what I talk about when I say we can't feel the 15 PSI air pressure surrounding us and they can't perceive they are lying.

[Qiaozhi]

Hung was talking about a "dielectric discharge". Sounds like some kind or sprite or something. Don't know, but reminded me a out about an article I read on pyramid energy and a frequency generator signal in the ground. Can't find that article and already spent too long looking for it.
Anyway it wasn't dielectric discharge but something alone those lines.
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Are you sure it wasn't a diuretic discharge?