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  • #31
    Originally posted by goldfinder
    Well JP - you are certainly thinking of this in depth.
    I do think that what I have does measure Static Discharge which is another way of saying what I wrote.

    your last questions - if there is ionic activity above buried gold then there should be an electrostatic difference between the gold ion column and the surrounding area. Detecting this would be difficult as there are so many natural ion charge sources that are at the surface and I did see lots of this. That was why I ended up with the static discharge detection as I thought it might be more reliable.

    And other question - creating an artificial disturbance in the column of gold area - Not sure how to do that. I do know that walking on sand and rocks cause static discharge.



    ... This came to me on going out to water one of our big trees. The idea that the gold iostatic charge offers a potential method ns form a column of electroof detection. There is an E-field vector along this column. So if we make a directional e-field detector it might be possible to detect this gold ion column along its depth. Depends n surrounding soil dampening the field to make it non-detectable. ?? And of course having a directional e-field vector detector.

    So what do you think of this idea?
    Goldfinder
    Hi Goldfinder,
    The ionic activity in the ground occurs when the ground is damp or wet. This condition promotes the movement of the ions and allows the complexes to dissolve in the ground water or dampness of the soil.
    If you recall, dampness does not support static charges. in damp soil, we could expect any static charge that begins to build to quickly move in the conductive soil and become neutral charge.
    There is an exception... for completely dry sand. Hot, dry blow sand in a desert can be a good insulator if it is not mineralised, and could retain a static charge, as well as allow buried objects to retain some charge.
    But this is a relatively rare condition to be found except in a few locations where dry non-conductive sand is found.
    But most soil is damp and has some degree of mineralisation and lots of chemical reactions occurring at the same time.
    In these conditions, a static charge anomaly cannot build below the ground. So I expect any column of gold ions to have the same static charge as the surrounding soil.

    To clarify, the gold ions do have an unbalanced charge when looking only at the gold atom.
    But remember there is a cyanide complex molecule which has the counterbalancing charge associated with each gold atom, so the net charge is zero.
    It is possible for these dissolved gold ions to leave their cyanide complex molecule and find another to attach to, but this does not represent any net charge to the ion column.
    If for some reason a charge began to build, it would quickly dissipate in the conductive soil.

    We can see the nature of subterranean soil does not permit detecting a large static charge, but what can we detect?
    The concentration of ions is in the low parts per trillion, but the column can be sizable.
    Let us suppose there is a box full of coins that measures 12 inches square and 6 inches tall buried 4 feet deep.
    We have 1/2 cubic feet of treasures, but we have 4 cubic feet of ion column.
    Of course we cannot measure this weak ion solution from a distance, but lets look at some secondary geophysical forces that are known to exist that could show an anomaly...

    The ground is expected to be more conductive where an ion solution is located, so we expect a conductivity anomaly.
    If you recall, there is a voltage gradient in the atmosphere that measures about 100-200 volts per each meter of altitude, with the earth being negative, and the ionosphere being positive.
    The air in between is the dielectric (insulator) which does actually leak current a little.
    Scientists have found there is an average leakage current of 6000 amps worth of electrons moving from the earth to the ionosphere on the earth at any one time.
    This current should show an anomaly in the air above where the ground is more conductive.
    We would expect the leakage current to be more in these areas, and we would expect the voltage gradient in the air to be less above this column of ions.
    We also know that any telluric currents flowing will favour the area of the ion column, as it is more conductive than the surrounding soil.

    But how much of an anomaly will we have when the concentration of ions is only a few parts per trillion?
    Will any of these secondary effects be measurable?
    We can only know this by testing an area of long time buried treasure.
    We could check the ground resistivity to see if the ion column showed an anomaly in soil resistivity.
    We could also check for VLF ground absorption to see if the more conductive area of the ion column was absorbing more VLF.
    This would be checked in the same manner as a geologist conducts his VLF survey to find subterranean rock formations.
    We could also check to see if any "ground battery" anomaly existed in the area of the ion column.
    The ions in the electrolyte are exactly what defines a battery electrolyte.
    We may find there is a current flowing if we put stakes in the ground at the column and at some of the surrounding ground.
    We could check for the stable nuclide of gold with a scintillating gamma counter.
    Because the ion column is so much larger than the buried treasure, it represents a much larger volume of gold-bearing soil which is more likely to show a larger incidence of naturally occurring au(197) which can be measured using a scintillator in a survey of the area.
    In fact, this method has been used for more than 35 years to successfully locate large gold deposits as well as deposits of other buried minerals.

    These are only a few of the methods I can think of that may prove to be useful if they are developed to get a clear enough signal from the gold or the ionised ground so it can be detected above the noise that exists in the ground and the atmosphere.

    As far as artificial electronic stimulation, let's look at natural electronic stimulation first:
    Every time lightning strikes within a few hundred miles of a location, the lightning event can be detected using VLF or ELF receivers.
    A lightning storm usually sends electrons the opposite direction from where it usually leaks naturally from the ground to the ionosphere.
    So the lightning is replenishing the lost electrons that leak to the atmosphere.
    But when lightning strikes, we can expect some consequence to any ionic chemical activity in the ground.
    Perhaps a sudden jolt of lightning would cause a number of the ions to dissociate from their cyanide complex for some short duration, then return.
    Or perhaps a lightning event would cause a sudden increase in the gold corroding from the surface of the buried object.
    If enough ions were involved in this short duration jolt of activity, it could be a measurable event.
    We also know there are telluric currents flowing beneath the surface, which vary over a 24 hour cycle.
    These currents would have a direct effect on the ions that we can expect to promote ionic activity, and possibly become part of the electronic circuit that helps to corrode buried metals.

    How to measure these secondary effects remotely?
    I can't answer that.
    But I can say I expect the strongest of secondary effects to be difficult to measure because they are so weak that they will be competing with natural background noise.

    But more important, how to create artificial electronic disturbance...
    You could send an artificial lightning bolt to mimic what nature does, but I don't know this would accomplish any useful signals.
    You could also send some RF to the ground.
    VLF from a few KHz up to maybe 300 KHz would be able to penetrate the ground to the depths you would find most of the treasures you would dig as a hobbyist.
    Maybe the VLF could stimulate the ionic activity to make it become more prominent and easier to detect some kind of signal than when there is no VLF directed at the column of ions.

    We remember a number of LRL enthusiasts telling us the "phenomenon" associated with long time buried metals is temporarily destroyed by sweeping a metal detector over the ground where the metal is buried.
    And we know these metal detectors are operating in the VLF range which produces RF as well as a magnetic field.
    Is it possible that the hand-held pistol VLF coils are sending a much weaker dose of VLF to a larger area of ground in front of the coil than a regular metal detector scrubbing the ground?
    Could this weaker dose of VLF be increasing the ionic activity to the point that it can be measured above the noise floor?

    I presented these ideas only as a little food for thought, since I don't see any hope of finding a static charge beneath the ground surface.
    Maybe something I said will give you an idea that might result in an improved remote gold detector.

    Best wishes,
    J_P

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by J_Player View Post
      Hi Goldfinder,
      .............
      You could also send some RF to the ground.
      VLF from a few KHz up to maybe 300 KHz would be able to penetrate the ground to the depths you would find most of the treasures you would dig as a hobbyist.
      Maybe the VLF could stimulate the ionic activity to make it become more prominent and easier to detect some kind of signal than when there is no VLF directed at the column of ions.
      ............
      Best wishes,
      J_P
      This method works for sure J_P.I think I wrote it in some other thread at the past.
      I have used such an LRL a few years back whith a friend.
      We were many times successfull discovering small treasures.
      I know some people won't believe it but who cares?
      Regards
      g-sani

      Comment


      • #33
        Hi J_Player,

        I think you are right, im my tests I have good results only if the signal trasmitted is very little, about 4 V peak to peak and the tr coil has less then 10 turns at about 100 Khz. It's also important a signal with many harmonics, a squared signal and not sinusoidal. I have abandoned the research with static E field that it's too influenced by "compass e sky" effects and "trees" effect.

        Best Regards

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by g-sani
          Hi goldfinder
          There are two things at your last post that I don't understand completely.
          1. You say that:
          ...One very interesting effect was that walking on rocks or sand created ionic activity that the detector would detect quite readily. So if you are walking and try to detect ions you are always going to detect ions...
          Well do you mean by this that you detect unwanted ions created by walking which actually is faulse indications?
          I am asking this because Esteban says that whith such LRLs is best when you also walk instead of only moving your hand left-right. As I understand this produces some tiny ac voltages required in order for the phenomenon to be detected.
          I hope I have been understandable.
          2. And the second thing I don't understand is your last sentence where you say:
          ....Interesting learning experience as a minimum! ...
          What exactly do you mean when you say as a minimum?

          Apart from all this I believe that your idea would be best applied for TH whith Morgans antenna(mini zaxori) on it instead of the telescopic one that you used.
          Is this difficult for somebody to adapt in your PIC uc ion detector?
          Please let me know if you think different.
          Regards
          g-sani
          Hi g-sani,
          Here are some answers to your questions:

          Well do you mean by this that you detect unwanted ions created by walking which actually is faulse indications?
          Walking on rocks or sand will cause your weight to press on top of these rocks and sand. There are a number of rocks that show a piezoelectric effect, whereby the pressure you apply to the rock or sand particles could generate a large voltage, similar to a piezoelectric spark generator creates a voltage when it is tapped by a weight that is driven by a spring. You can imagine your footsteps carry much more power than a finger-operated spark igniter. I expect that as you walk across the rocks and sand, you would detect a number of static discharges from the rocks shifting under your shoes. You will probably find the best detection of rock sparks when you are walking on dry rocks or dry sand.

          ....Interesting learning experience as a minimum! ...
          What exactly do you mean when you say as a minimum?

          This means that the minimum benefit from experimenting with a static discharge detector is to learn things about static from rocks and sand. There are many other things to learn that have nothing to do with treasure hunting which go beyond this minimum. For example, if you set the pulse duration to catch some very narrow pulses, you will find that there is constant static discharge from the tires of cars that are travelling on the roads. You will also find many structures in nature that accumulate a static charge such as trees and other plants, but do not necessarily always cause static discharges. (Remember, many plants are wet inside and cannot build up a charge stronger than a few volts above the ground potential. Yet they have the effect of pushing the ground potential up to fill the volume of the tree, so it can be seen as a very large anomaly in the static charge of the air which is usually 100-200 volts higher for each meter altitude. In this case, the gradient simply starts at the edge of the tree instead of starting at the ground, The net effect is the same as if there was a mountain of dirt the size of the tree in front of your detector). And you will be able to detect distant lightning storms if your pulse interval is set correctly. These things and many more can be detected with a static charge detector and with a static discharge detector. And you will find the design of the antenna can greatly influence what you can detect.

          Best wishes,
          J_P

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by J_Player View Post
            Hi g-sani,
            Here are some answers to your questions:

            Well do you mean by this that you detect unwanted ions created by walking which actually is faulse indications?
            Walking on rocks or sand will cause your weight to press on top of these rocks and sand. There are a number of rocks that show a piezoelectric effect, whereby the pressure you apply to the rock or sand particles could generate a large voltage, similar to a piezoelectric spark generator creates a voltage when it is tapped by a weight that is driven by a spring. You can imagine your footsteps carry much more power than a finger-operated spark igniter. I expect that as you walk across the rocks and sand, you would detect a number of static discharges from the rocks shifting under your shoes. You will probably find the best detection of rock sparks when you are walking on dry rocks or dry sand.

            ....Interesting learning experience as a minimum! ...
            What exactly do you mean when you say as a minimum?
            This means that the minimum benefit from experimenting with a static discharge detector is to learn things about static from rocks and sand. There are many other things to learn that have nothing to do with treasure hunting which go beyond this minimum. For example, if you set the pulse duration to catch some very narrow pulses, you will find that there is constant static discharge from the tires of cars that are travelling on the roads. You will also find many structures in nature that accumulate a static charge such as trees and other plants, but do not necessarily always cause static discharges. (Remember, many plants are wet inside and cannot build up a charge stronger than a few volts above the ground potential. Yet they have the effect of pushing the ground potential up to fill the volume of the tree, so it can be seen as a very large anomaly in the static charge of the air which is usually 100-200 volts higher for each meter altitude. In this case, the gradient simply starts at the edge of the tree instead of starting at the ground, The net effect is the same as if there was a mountain of dirt the size of the tree in front of your detector). And you will be able to detect distant lightning storms if your pulse interval is set correctly. These things and many more can be detected with a static charge detector and with a static discharge detector. And you will find the design of the antenna can greatly influence what you can detect.

            Best wishes,
            J_P
            Thanks for explaining J_P.
            I was wondering if Goldfinder experimented whith different antenna designs.
            I believe he did.
            Regards, g-sani

            Comment

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