Radionics

[Dell Winders]

Yes, I utilize a trained Ideomotor response for my mental Dowsing. I know that. Is that the full Scientific explanation for how I am able to obtain provable results with consistency??

Your explanation seems very simplistic. Carl, imagines mental Dowsing success as guessing, by observing revealing clues in the photo, or topo landscape??

Both explanations raise more questions than they answer. Can you elobrate on how my brain is able to focus on to the location of some select targets, at places I have never been with accuracy, and other types of targets be inaccurate??

Thanks for adding your Scientific knowledge. So, far your expertise of the subject has been quite revealing.

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Yes, I utilize a trained Ideomotor response for my mental Dowsing. I know that. Is that the full Scientific explanation for how I am able to obtain provable results with consistency??

"provable results with consistency" - if this is true then you should be eligible for the $1Million prize.

Your explanation seems very simplistic.

Occam's Razor strikes again.

Carl, imagines mental Dowsing success as guessing, by observing revealing clues in the photo, or topo landscape??

He's correct.
""

Both explanations raise more questions than they answer.

No - they fully explain the situation.

Can you elobrate on how my brain is able to focus on to the location of some select targets, at places I have never been with accuracy, and other types of targets be inaccurate??

No - I cannot elobrate (sic) as this is only possible in an imaginary world.

Thanks for adding your Scientific knowledge. So, far your expertise of the subject has been quite revealing.

Any time. I hope you learnt something useful.

"Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated." Confucious

[Dell Winders]

Any time. I hope you learnt something useful.

I Did! You taught me you are merely a scientific pretender wallowing in self imposed ignorance, and arrogance, who doesn't have a clue about the subject of Dowsing you are attempting to discuss.

Let me know when you are back to reality and It's safe for me to try again to obtain intelligent answers to my questions.

"The door to understanding & knowledge is never open to a closed, or prejudiced mind" Dell

[Rudy]

Unfortunately the term 'ambiguity' is much more apropriate to most science today than it ever was.

Groundless assertion on your part. Facts please.

No, no. It's the opposite ! No theory will be ever made without first empiric experimentation. By performing what you state above, you show EXACTLY how handicaped scientific aproach is today. Theory will only be formulated when you think you know what just happened in your experiment! Then you look for a mathematical of physical understanding. How absurd is the idea of having a theory be first launched than an experiment! You would be limiting the experimentation solely!

I think you are getting hung up on this. Yes, quite often, a theory is developed to replace a previous theory, when certain observations are made, which were not predicted by previous theory. But, I would not call these observations deliberate experiments. In any case, the existing theory is revised, or a new theory is put forth, that accounts for all previously known behaviors plus the new empirical observation. This new/modified theory is put to the test by determining what new behaviors the theory predicts and then experiments are devised to check out wether the new predicted behavior actually occurs.

In our case. We did the experiment, then we had to revise physics to acomodate it. But first we had an initial mathematical model which could be physically reproduced. Then by using the math applied in what was observed, new aspects were displayed.

Well, since you are not willing to discuss the details, I can't comment on it, but your statement is exactly in line with what I said. The mathematical model that was developed initially is the starting theory (maybe hypothesis is a better term for the theory at that point of gestation).

Only if it does not prove being a military or power advantage. What do you think have happened to most of Tesla's papers?

They where either lost, or are in your personal library?

We are in our science infancy. In fact 18th and 19th century scientists are way ahead of today's in many aspects. Part because there's no more scientific research as used to be in that era. Part because of financial , more profitable reasons.

Way ahead as measured by what yardstick?
After having worked at Bell Telephone Laboratories for 10 years before the Justice Department broke up the Bell System, I am personally painfully aware of the tragic loss of basic research in this country.

One example that comes to mind of that era type researchers today are canadian John Hutchison, Reginald Jaynes and Naudin, to name a few. Huthcison's work using modified Tesla coils and Van der Graaf generators created what it's known today as the Hutchison Effect. This was first acomplished in 1979 by mere empyrical experimentation. Still how it can be reproduced is unknown today. Military seeked him badly and he had his lab confiscated twice. This is an example of how this kind of tech can lead to serious trouble if divulged. That's why I will never disclose what we went trough 12 years ago.

Last I heard Hutchison admitted he had "enhanced" one of his videos for a TV show.

Wrong again. Study phonons.

You stand correct. I better not present this.
I know nothing. I thought I did.
I am learning it again.

Anyway, what is the application of Hutchison's Effect to Treasure Hunting?

[michael]

I admit that this ability can truly shock you into thinking someone has some psychic ability. This is known as a "cold reading", and was very popular in Victorian times. There is nothing psychic about it. It's a very clever trick that almost anyone can learn. There are several free e-books on the internet, if you want to know how it's done. Read them, and don't get fooled again.

got fooled? no, I'm not a credulous or imbecile to got easily fooled. do you think I'm a kid? I deplore you judged quickly such a manner.
I know what you mean, there are many people with strong psychoanalysis power and are indeed charlatan, they first get your info(data) then transform and deliver it in different way to you.
yes, I have confronted frequently to many of them they couldn't get any of my info or personal tendencies, then for not become spoiled told many absurdities, and I laughed at them (as I'm very straightforward) and called them "Impostor" and changed their believers opinion.
but the guy I wrote about was with a real different abilities, he hadn't talked to me and when met each other except to some greetings didn't talk even one word, then he at once directly went to main affair and told all my personal and private things. He had a different nature.
one of my friends was very skeptic about this ability, when I arranged a meeting, he was like me shocked and believed.
Qiaozhi, what we are discussing about can't be found in internet and I'm sure it's not trickery, or rare people who can tell every thing about you only by touching your shirt or sweater without need to see or meet you. Now search in internet, deny it, only because found nothing in net.
Think a while; in internet we can't find an useful complete scientific book, now how can find one about such extraordinary abilities. maybe find some hints, but not practical for learning. these are abilities given for special men and proves we all have a shadow of them.
In net you can search for "Human View" can find some themes about, but not exact me and Hung mentioned.

...High frequency RF signals can also penetrate the earth, but their penetration is limited in depth....
Sorry, I didn't understand the above....

Rudy, You believe that LF RFs penetrate less than HFs, OK, now consequently you believe HZ ranges are more penetrative than KHZ, yes? now I repeat my question [you said "sorry I didn't understand the above"]
Why OKM does produce and present VLF generator with very short antennas as complementary accessory for metals to be detected better? (as you see in picture). If injecting RFs into ground is a futile work, why they do this? as I wrote and you didn't heed, my compatriot has found by exps, his last found by exp5000 was a 22.3 Cm gold sheet at 210 Cm depth.

in a part of its' manual you read:
"Normally frequencies of less than 40 kHz are used.
Place the four VLF sender in a square or rectangle and power on all sender. Now you can execute a normal measurement in operating mode Ground Scan, see figure 40. By using the VLF sender in particular all metallic objects will be enforced more than a measurement without sender."

[hung]

Both explanations raise more questions than they answer. Can you elobrate on how my brain is able to focus on to the location of some select targets, at places I have never been with accuracy, and other types of targets be inaccurate??

Dell, I'm not totally sure right now as I still haven't had the time to answer this conclusively. I do have the resources for this. You raised a good point so I will look into it in the near future. It's just a matter of some research with the resources I pocess. Although I don't like to coment on subjects I do not have a complete result explanation, I suspect this has to do with you own internal electromagnetic print interacting with two other energy fields, being one of earth's itself.

Let's do a quick and informal essay here. We know our brain emit electrical patterns. Even diminute, they also carry a magnetic 'printing'. Those are called thought forms. They are nothing more than frequencies which can be broadcast. So we are able to transmit and also to receive frequencies and 'vibrations'.
In the eighties, there was a very important experiment conducted which dealt with this. Thought forms were broadcast from a human subject to an IBM 360 computer through an interface which transformed them in 'bytes' and then sent to a Cray 1 computer which translated them in actual frequencies.
They amplified these signals and used transmitters to span the transmission spectrum using white and pink noises empyrically in the Mhz range along with a special configuration antenna for this. Results were astounding and I will not coment it here as this raises other much more complex issues.

So what do we have here? We are able upon using our thoughts(thought forms) to transmit frequencies as well.
So what does that mean in relation to dowsing, pendulum, etc.?
My view is that our brain might interact with those instruments if we desire or even unconsciously if not pursuing a trained mind. So for instance, in the case of a pendulum, it moves according to earth's own electromagnetic field and to its own frequency which is around 7.8 Hz and along with your own. Experiment say, telling the pendulum in thoughts or speaking out loud a command for it to turn to a partidular direction or instead of circular to perform a straight line swing. It will do it. No. It's not ideomotor response. Ideomotor is a term which is largely misused in an attempt of explaining things which cannot be understood in such cases.

But then there's another field and energy which is much more powerful then both. It's the one which lies in the ether and pocesses an inteligent and logical pattern and does not interfere ramdonly. This energy acts independently of your desire or the earth's own field pattern.

Finally when all those three fields are confronted, different results will appear depending on the balance or unbalancing of these three forces.
You then may figure out why dowsing and the pendulum might get non consistent and false results sometimes.

The above is what I imagine according to what I already know. But further research is needed to understand how this third force acts. And I tell you conclusions might reveal one aspect which many will never accept, but... the truth always prevail.

Thanks for adding your Scientific knowledge. So, far your expertise of the subject has been quite revealing.

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

Sorry Dell , I will have to politely and gratefuly decline your compliment. My knowledge is quite limited.
I do however study and research to always feed my imagination. As you state yourself, we have to always keep an open mind, otherwise true knowledge will never get in.

[Qiaozhi]

I Did! You taught me you are merely a scientific pretender wallowing in self imposed ignorance, and arrogance, who doesn't have a clue about the subject of Dowsing you are attempting to discuss.

Let me know when you are back to reality and It's safe for me to try again to obtain intelligent answers to my questions.

"The door to understanding & knowledge is never open to a closed, or prejudiced mind" Dell

I only have 3 things to say in response to this post:

1. I was under the impression that you had already received your final warning regarding name calling on this forum.
At least Hung is capable of engaging in friendly banter and still maintain a certain level of decorum, even if we agree to disagree.

2. Someone like yourself, who has a vested interest in promoting this dowsing nonsense, will never be open minded enough to accept that they are wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
"Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself".

3. According to your own website:

"In the process of elimination. I obtained an aerial Photo of the area, plotted many Dowsed Treasure burials, and Dowsed several locations where visible, above ground Markers relating to that particular Treasure might be found."

The words "many" and "several" were highlighted by me.
You then go on to state:

"When I went there more than a year later, the photo below shows the Dowsed location of one of the visible markers related to the Treasure."

Again, I have highlighted the word "one". So it appears that only one out many/several dowsed locations actually contained anything of interest. In this case, it was some white rocks, but no treasure. This technique of only seeing what you want to see, is one that is borrowed from cold-reading.
This doesn't seem to be the "powerful Treasure research tool" that you claim on your website.

[Dell Winders]

Qiaozhi, You make it appear that you have quantative scientific experience to authoritivly speak on the subject of Mental dowsing. Yet your remarks exhibit no knowledge, or experience with mental dowsing. If you are implying that you have more experience with the practical use of Dowsing than I have, then you are indeed a pretender.

Again, What you said really doesn't make any sense in the real world of Treasure hunting.

Can you provide a link that will allow me access to the website you are quoting from. Thanks, Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Qiaozhi, You make it appear that you have quantative scientific experience to authoritivly speak on the subject of Mental dowsing. Yet your remarks exhibit no knowledge, or experience with mental dowsing. If you are implying that you have more experience with the practical use of Dowsing than I have, then you are indeed a pretender.

Again, What you said really doesn't make any sense in the real world of Treasure hunting.

Can you provide a link that will allow me access to the website you are quoting from. Thanks, Dell

Now you are being facetious. You are using the terms "quantative scientific experience" and "mental dowsing" to support each other in the same sentence.
How could I possibly have more experience than you with mental dowsing? Once you understand the real reason that the pendulum moves as it does, then it becomes a pointless exercise (much like the ouija board) as you have clearly demonstrated in your postings. Firstly you create a long list of possible sites by unconciously observing clues on the map, and then in a sudden case of amnesia, ignore the ones that did not yield results. In case you've forgotten the URL :confusedwhich you posted only yesterday in this thread) here it is ->
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...c,24475.0.html

[Jim]

Gads...looks as if Carl needs to move a few posts over to the Dell Winders Crybaby thread

[Qiaozhi]

Gads...looks as if Carl needs to move a few posts over to the Dell Winders Crybaby thread

You could be right. I feel like crying too ... tears of laughter!

[Rudy]

Michael,

I believe that for equal power input, low frequency RF penetrates more deeply than high frequency RF.

[robert]

Pseuodscience all arround?!

:confused: :confused: :confused:
Quiaozhi,friend,
cant you stop wasting your time here?
You are aproved to be conversant in stuff we are interested - metal detectors and electronics.
Than why dont you spend more time on threads like "Modifications","Schematics" etc...
We can take much more benefit from your knowledge and mind there, instead wasting
time,nervs and health here on such nonsences like "radionics"...ha,ha,ha...
What a nonsences???!!! hung and dell already showed as persistent, and nobody
(except administrator) cant stop them. Talking here with them,you are just giving
more "life" to their nonsences.
I realised that some time ago,therefore i am not coming here any more to bug my self with
stupid nonsences and anoying kind of people here.
Fact that carl deleted some of my posts cleary shows that "they" are even protected and freely
can spread nonsences more and more here?!
Quiaozhi, friend, cant you see that their main idea is to turn this technical forum
in to funny place,to destroy this forum credibility,level....
My (provoked) "anatognism" with carl didnt put me out of this place,no,not at all.
If i wanted to continue with my "style" of dealing with those(hung,dell...) i could register
under 100 nicks more and really bash and bug them to "death" here. Nobody can stop me!
For sure not carl...But i am not that persistent,i already saw that
talking with those people (hung,dell) is wasting time and nothing else.
They are just that "kind of people", you can not change them. Best way is to ignore
them,their nonsences and stupid claims and posts.
I am not vindictive and i do not want to sound ironic, but let us be reminded on my
previous claims about mineoro products!?
Let us read very first pages of threads with mineoro subjects...!?
Let see Michael's first posts there. Let see and read Michaels and mine argue,name calling,
"war" in the past.
I was trying to prevent Michael to waste his money on fg... device.
Without success! So finally Michael bought fg...and...???
Next Michael's post were full with doubts!?
I could answer him than, something in manner: "...i told you.." and than laugh to death!
But i did not!
Obviously he made mistake,he wasted money....his problem. I am still sorry about that,
but it is too late to fix it.
And hung? When Michael posted doubts about fg...what was hungs answer than? Ha,ha,ha!!!
Same thing with Ranger teller,same thing with "radionics", same thing with all hung's and
dell's philosophy so far!
Empty claims,pseudo science,populism,bogus...NOTHING!
hung is not easy to "beat".Simply he is clever,he is not stupid.
He already visited so many internet sites,
read already much of "populistic,pseudosienced" publications,same as dell.
The difference between hung and dell is only one; dell is long-term dowser,already
very experienced in "people cheating",very tricky man,also very clever!
hung,on other side is member of mineoro "making money" team,he is "working" here,on this forum.
He takes percent of every sold mineoro device,cose he advertises those,"loud mouthing"
everywhere on the internet forums under various nicks.
So hungs behavior is understandable. Simply,man is making money here! Bravo hung!
But only one thing is buging me here, still;
as academic mind i have to say that "those" peoples hardest weapon is populism and
pseudoscience. Huge percent of forum visitors and memebers are amateurs, amateur
constructors,enthusiasts. Very few of those are ee's with complete knowledge involved
in subjects here. So,if we put some wrong,bogus idea in "populistic" form and support it
with only pieces of true science(carefully chosen pieces) and than post that as
many times hung did......well,than huge number of mentioned amateurs and laics will
"bite the hook" and start to beleive in those nonsences! Harm is done!
Even if some member decide to check simillar claims,he will be in position to check
only those "carefully chosen pieces" taken from real science. By checking those,he will
be in a lot of doubts about everything. Slowly,step by step he will start to beleive
in every nonsence ever posted here by hung and dell.....and few people more.
So, Quiaozhi be clever, leave this threads and come to "technical" threads,involve
yourself more in real problems. Let us (this forum) benefit from you knowledge.
Leave this nonsences.Leave "those" people alone. Let them argue and spread nonsenced
philosophy among theirselves....ha,ha,ha...
Rudy...you too, also!
Michael,although you involved yourself deep here,it is not too late to recover. You look
as very honest man to me,at the end. Do not let yourself be missleaded any more!
Save yourself Michael. Money you wasted on fg...is nothing compared with wrong ideas and
pseudoscience you are dangered to be "sucked" in!
************************************************** *****
I think you addresed this to me and some of my previous posts:
"About this as I remember in previous discussions in different threads some members believed
high frequencies (at MHZ or GHZ scales can spread or penetrate appropriately in soil and ground)
now I see you are in versus.you believe in VLFs in Hz scale!!! 2 days before I got acquainted
with a genius in physic...."

"some members believed high frequencies..."
First,Michael, i do NOT "beleive"! All my "beleifs" i DO rely on knowledge i accepted through
years of my study! Second, i upgraded my previous "academic" knowledge during 25 years of
REAL working with REAL problems on REAL projects!
I do consider my self (also aproven by so many relevant experts worldvide) as very conversant
to talk about RF, ...high freq., low freq., and many more....
"Spreading" in soil....huh, this question is too complex to explain in a few words. I should
write whole book( i already did several...) even to approximate to you all eventual aspects
of this "problematic". Do i need that? Do you need that? Are you gonna understand that? (as
amateur,laic..) Of course NOT!
I rather choose to use few sentences and explain in short terms that high freq. CAN NOT
PENETRATE into soil. Period.
But,i presume that thing what really confuses you and few other members here is fact that
high freq. is mentioned many times in so many advertisements where some "high tech" equipment
is subject. Usually, things are not adecuate explained there.So if laic as yourself see
that kind of claims, he can mix up facts out of main context.
For example i can name some true and science-supported tehniques if we talk about "long"
range locating:
* GPR....Shortly, this technique uses reflection of HIGH FREQ. electromagentic ways(10MHz to
1000 MHZ and more...)...probably this confused you much!?
* Frequency Domain Electromagnetic
* Time Domain Electromagnetics
* Resistivity
* Magnetic (magnetic field measurements)
* Radiometric (gama radiation...)
* Seismic Reflection
* Gravity
And so on,and so on.....
"...We talked much about radio frequencies,...I asked him" do you admit RFs can travel on &
inside ground?" his A:" Yes, high frequencies do this much better, the lower the more difficult
" As I had made test myself by my RF generator; either in HZ or KHZ, asked his opinion about it.
he told : "it depends on power & amplification, in what power?" my A: " e.g. 100 Watt" his A:
" yes of course" My Q:" how far? some inches or 1 meter?"[here I knew answer based on my own
experience] his A:" no, much more, based on ground condition up to 100 or hundreds meters" I
added :" some people who claim are very experienced and knowledgeable in RF sciences, believe
that these kind of waves can go only up to some inches,.." He was surprised and told these are
axiom.His comments was exact conjoint to my EE friend comments...."

"...genius in physic..." ??? According to your short story,that man is far away of being any
kind of genius!!?? Lunatic maybe,but genius NOT!
Or maybe man is not lunatic,maybe he is genius. But,you as laic,can not talk with him properly.
You do not know how to ask proper questions. You are not awared of all aspects of that instant
problem? Think twice. Same thing here,on this forum.Laics are trying to make "serious"
conversation with experts!? Ts,ts,ts...!
By this i do not mean to offend you or anybody else here.These are the facts!
Try to spend more time with that "genius" of yours and try to further explain real problems
and questions in this subject(long range locating) to him.Later you will gain same answers and
conlusions as you may read from my posts...
"Ad hock" questions,answers and conclusions are just helping populistic&pseudo-science to
expand and extend nonsences more and more here!
Physic as real science(i mean pure physic) is dealing with abstract concepts and dimensions.
Calculations and formulas in Physic are more academic than you can imagine, my friend.
It is so easy to prove many things,using pure physic and mathematics, but in real life those
proofs remain only academic and have role to be standing points from which man can go further,
sort of basis for further revelations. Of course, mainly, physic relly on easy provable facts with
fundamentals from real life,unlike any pseudoscience...
To understand a bit more,you should return to school,read some books....but hey,you should though
about that before!
At the end it is very good to have here people like hung and dell posting their nonsences
as usually they do. Very funny posts. I do enjoy reading those from time to time!
Whole dell's and eventual hung's "experience",seems to be based on missunderstanding of
subject itself!? "Playing" with dowsers tools,dell adopted very wrong ideas during all those
years on the field. Sorry for you dell! Very sorry!
Illiteracy in any kind of real science put dell and hung in position to estblish very wrong ideas
and to start a quite new pseudoscience here!?
They are victims! That's why i do feel very sorry about them!
They gonna spend whole life in missunderstanding in everything what surrounds them in nature.
I am very,very sorry for them! But hey! They are not stupid! They found way to earn some
money from all those illiteracy! Bravo boys! But not fair! Not honest! Think about that!

I do not come here to post any more,but i am here all the time. Every day.
hung,dell,Michael,Quiaozhi,Rudy...happy new year to all of you.Best wishes anyway!
regards

[Rudy]

Happy New Year to you too Robert. And thanks for your insightful comments.

[Qiaozhi]

Thanks Robert. I miss your presence on this forum.

Of course, you are absolutely correct. I have much more important things to do than to waste time here bashing my head against a wall.

The pseudoscience advocates have their own hidden agendas and vested interests, which is usually money. But sometimes I just cannot help myself when I see this nonsense being posted, especially when some people are gullible enough to believe it.

I'll try to spend more time on the technical forums, but I'll still be monitoring this LRL nonsense for any misinformation.

Wo zhi ni xin nian kuai le! (I wish you a Happy New Year!)