Demistifing ion chambers and snake oil

[Rudy]

During my many years of field experience searching for Gold, I don't find this to be true. Perhaps text book logic needs to be revised.

Revisions would be forthcoming if the evidence to the contrary was fully documented and the experiment could be repeated by others under controlled conditions and produced the same results.

In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits before GPS was available, the instrumentation we used would detect and record Gold deposits but this would only bring us in the proximity of the Gold for a ground search.

What specifically was the instrumentation used?

To locate the Gold deposit(s) we would bury 25 pounds of low grade Uranium ore in 2-3 locations within the general proximity of the aerial location, then wait 3-4 weeks. The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold, and metered the same as Gold with our instruments.

Which are the (presumably measurable) "characteristics" being referred to?

When we returned to the aera after an alloted time, we would detect the known locations of the Uranium ore, as well as the unknown location of the Gold deposit, and by calculating the distances between the known targets, and the unknown target we could isolate and pinpoint the location of the Gold deposit.

What kind of detecting apparatus was being used?

Since the gold deposit locations where unknown, how did you figure you had actually detected them?

If the unknown target locations are by definition -unknown- how do you calculate a distance from the known location to the unknown location?

[Rudy]

here is a key to puzzle
second product of gold mining companyies is uranium ore.
today's gold is produced by electrolyzes and it is pure because of production process.
what about the gold of old times.are they pure?
or can be uranium inside of it's mixture.
if so,
yes mineoro detects ions but not gold.
uranium generally fonuds with gold and silver ores.
regards

Okantex, your suggestion appears plausible, but it does not explain the claim that one can bury "new" jewelry grade gold and after a few weeks of being underground it can be detected. Clearly gold is not a Uranium magnet, so the buried jewelry is not going to be detectable by this method.

[Max]

Okantex, your suggestion appears plausible, but it does not explain the claim that one can bury "new" jewelry grade gold and after a few weeks of being underground it can be detected. Clearly gold is not a Uranium magnet, so the buried jewelry is not going to be detectable by this method.

Hi Rudy,
I agree with yuor posts. I think that these methods (buring uranium or other stuff there) for the purpose of finding gold are simple science-fiction.
I have no dubt these kind of stuff has nothing to do with TH but simply with
mining and other geologycal surveys.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

"What kind of detecting apparatus was being used?
Since the gold deposit locations where unknown, how did you figure you had actually detected them?
If the unknown target locations are by definition -unknown- how do you calculate a distance from the known location to the unknown location?
"
yes, right !

Hypothesis:

I think he was talking about some plane-equipped with e.g. a sensible geiger counter and a
gamma-ray sensor...like the ones used in colorado in the 50's to find radioactive ores.
The kind of stuff used in geo surveys to find radioactive ore deposits,
but in this case the implicit reference was to a secondary radiation spot ( I think ).
If the above secondary radiation was revealed then a kind of "pinpointing" was possible
because fixed primary sources positions were known.
Unfortunately, this method don't work with gold items because :
- the propagation path (of radiations) between sources and target is not so sure to happen
- also if propagation of radiations occours no secondary radiation could be revealed in this case
(not from a plane or an hand-held instrument)
- also if propagation of trace elements occours and then revealed there is no way to detect gold
because this only evidence that there is a path (e.g. a water flow underground) but not that there
is anything else --> this is used to mark e.g. oil flows in gas/oil surveys.
One has to dig...so this is not remote sensing, detecting or discriminating but simply
a sampling for ores...wow ! Never see one sampling for treasures with a well-borer?

(I see one on TV - in Oak Island - Canada - but they know that there is a treasure below their
feet! and it works ! they find small pieces of gold in the bore rod ! )

So the conclusion is: can't use radioactivity to find gold items.

If Mineoro's or other LRL units work then is not by radioactivity (and not by ions - so whatever now?).

Best regards,
Max

[okantex]

max
what do you think about this page.

http://personal.picusnet.com/one/polaroid.htm

what caused that light in picture.

[Carl-NC]

The streaks are caused by old film and/or uneven roller pressure in the camera. This is not uncommon with Polaroids, but when it happens to a treasure hunter, they seem to believe it's caused by hidden treasure. Everyone else says, "Damn camera!"

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

The streaks are caused by old film and/or uneven roller pressure in the camera. This is not uncommon with Polaroids, but when it happens to a treasure hunter, they seem to believe it's caused by hidden treasure. Everyone else says, "Damn camera!"

- CarlToday 08:23 AM

You try to give the illusion all Treasure hunters think alike. Sorry Carl, one size does not fit all.

Are you jealous, prejudice, or just your egotistical superiority complex shining through? Dell

[Max]

The streaks are caused by old film and/or uneven roller pressure in the camera. This is not uncommon with Polaroids, but when it happens to a treasure hunter, they seem to believe it's caused by hidden treasure. Everyone else says, "Damn camera!"

- Carl

Hi Carl,
I found this site very interesting. Thanks a lot.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

max
what do you think about this page.

http://personal.picusnet.com/one/polaroid.htm

what caused that light in picture.

Hi Okantex,
I can't say what caused the light in the pictures -well, not watching them on a pc monitor-
but can agree with Carl on the hypothesis that
"old film and/or uneven roller pressure in the camera" can cause such a behaviour.

Obviosly, if the photo was not altered/manipulated intentionally. It's so simple that any
teenager can do photoretouch on the fly using say adobe photoshop.

Anyway, I'll assume here the photo is authentic and not manipulated.

As you already may know Polaroid camera film is a "kind of magic", I mean, there is a lot
of stuff on that paper because it have to react not only to light when one shoot the button
but also to a number of chemical reactions that just in few seconds develop the photo on
the same substrate. Here anything strange could happen.

From the website you posted I recall the last part of the "article" :

"Another treasure illusion is tiny yellow spots on the picture.
The engineers at Polaroid told me that this is caused by small particles of dust
or dirt on the rollers that squeeze the film, as it comes out of the camera.
So if you clean the rollers well, than this affect disappears from the photos."

So it seems to be related to the mechanical and chemical aspects of the device and the paper
(in this case was SX 70).

I experienced many of this strange optical effects with my old 35mm reflex camera also.
One time I've used a B/w russian made film (I'll never use again), my brother buy for cheap,
and obtained so strange white spots that I can't belive at first - but some days after I
discovered that the film was expired 7 years before use!

I'm skeptic on that topic.

It'll be fashinating if a kind of energy will radiate from gold or treasures...wow
its aura (kirlian stuff) or its "energy" ! If one loves new-age stuff ...just don't put
your head under aluminium foil to prevent aliens remote sensing, that's what I say.
People become aggressive and call police if one walk on the street with such a cover.
Returning serious: gold doesn't radiate anything in normal state energy.
No gamma-rays, no x-rays, no rf just...nothing.
Another issue is then the one related to IR detection. I've read a lot of posts regarding
IR detection using "leningrad 7" or something. Using an IR detector to find gold ???

From when gold radiate IR ??? ::confused::

I know that the gold spectrum contains lines that correspond to specific frequencies but
this gold must be energized to "jump" in a hi-energy state, then radiate photons in the
decay phase(s). This is explained by the Shroedinger (write it right?) equation.

We here are not talking about demining a minefield where "recent" mines lyes few inches underground,
and are visible by a "cold-camera" but of gold items buried at least some feets underground where
ground thermic level sorrounds everything inside and "cold-camera" S/N ratio degrade is absolute.
So what about these detectors ??? have they a transmitter stage to excite gold atoms ???
If so at what frequency it works ??? With how much power ??? What's normal attenuation in
the ground ??? can a suitable S/N ratio be developed in the receiver ??? etc etc etc
but also
why use a "leningrad 7" if one can use an IR camera instead or a photomultiplier tube ???
Leningrad 7, zinc sulphide, IR leds...what's that stuff for???
Wanna see the gamma-rays: let's buy some serious stuff e.g. military surplus tubes - don't
mess with poor-man and kitchen electronics - this is my point of view.
The problem is...exciting a gold mass buried say 10 or 100 feet in the ground is not so easy task
and requires a lot of power - the kind of power one can't put in an hand-held star-trek-like pistol.
Attenuation is too high at those frequencies and one must send Megawatt bursts (hey!) to penetrate
in depth. Maybe NASA has one of this cannons - do you remember the StarWars project? - but I dubt
any THs can make one in his home garage.

So i think that, with actual THs technology available, also IR detection fails to detect buried gold or anything else underground.

So if Mineoro's or other LRL unit work it's not by InfraRed (and not by radioactivity and not by ions).

Best regards (and sorry for the very long post),
Max

[michael]

Old buried gold

Hi all, Thank you for your good points, especially Max, you're right about ion chambers.
like what happens in Atomic Absorption Detection for determining the elements in different materials. and it's obvious what is going in the claimed "ion chamber" in mineoro devices is not comparable to these technologies and.....
but one thing is brought up here: I want to ask from knowledgeable men about electronic ; Max, Rudy,....
Do you believe that old buried gold objects( not only gold, any kind of metal)
behave completely different than fresh ones? do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device? Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?
have you ever had such experiences? what I believe and before this have told; physic science or physic logics has it's own esteem, but experiences if not be standout, are not less important.
It's remarkable that I'm not going to advocate for any special producer or device, as I'm really one independent user.
but just decide at least take the discussion to a positive point to get a result or propound a subject to be observed much more.

[Qiaozhi]

You try to give the illusion all Treasure hunters think alike. Sorry Carl, one size does not fit all.

Are you jealous, prejudice, or just your egotistical superiority complex shining through? Dell

Rant over?? Feeling better now??
Poor demented soul. Perhaps a bit of egotistical map dowsing will calm the troubled mind.

[hung]

Nothing extraordinary in the pictures.
It only shows that long time buried gold produce a strong air ionization which according to the right conditions are visible. The polaroid pictures shows that.
What about it? Mineoro claims this for eons. I know it's true. The pictures also..
Unfortunately the researcher in that site failed to conclude that it only happens to long time buried gold.
I always researched sites which people claimed to spot a fire ball on certain summer nights. The last one was in last july. The beeped and a gold vein was found.

[Dell Winders]

Max, I am in awe of your scientific knowledge, and appreciative of your willingness, and kind consideration of sharing, rather than dictating and showing disdain to those of us without formal education. Thank You, for that courtesy.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, but as you well know true Science is an open door of new discoveries, and revised theories. It often takes years, and sometimes lifetimes for new concepts and even small details to be proven, published, peer reviewed, and generally accepted.

Every thing you have said is within the rigid constraints and procedural limitations of Academia. You are safe among your peers for not thinking beyond the Academic box of past truths.

I have the impression you are more open minded to possibilities outside the realm of your formal education, so I will accept the risk of being mocked and ridculed and offer my own perspective to your present viewpoint;

The problem is...exciting a gold mass buried say 10 or 100 feet in the ground is not so easy task
and requires a lot of power -

That's true, but perhaps the power you suggest is not necessary.

I would suggest that we are metering an emenating "field" rising from a target element to the surface of land, or water, and measurable above the earth in mass to at least 3,000 feet above the surface of the earth.

"What has been done, can be done" Dell

[Rudy]

"What kind of detecting apparatus was being used?
Since the gold deposit locations where unknown, how did you figure you had actually detected them?
If the unknown target locations are by definition -unknown- how do you calculate a distance from the known location to the unknown location?
"
yes, right !

Hypothesis:

I think he was talking about some plane-equipped with e.g. a sensible geiger counter and a
gamma-ray sensor...like the ones used in colorado in the 50's to find radioactive ores.
The kind of stuff used in geo surveys to find radioactive ore deposits,
but in this case the implicit reference was to a secondary radiation spot ( I think ).
If the above secondary radiation was revealed then a kind of "pinpointing" was possible
because fixed primary sources positions were known.
Unfortunately, this method don't work with gold items because :
- the propagation path (of radiations) between sources and target is not so sure to happen
- also if propagation of radiations occours no secondary radiation could be revealed in this case
(not from a plane or an hand-held instrument)
- also if propagation of trace elements occours and then revealed there is no way to detect gold
because this only evidence that there is a path (e.g. a water flow underground) but not that there
is anything else --> this is used to mark e.g. oil flows in gas/oil surveys.
One has to dig...so this is not remote sensing, detecting or discriminating but simply
a sampling for ores...wow ! Never see one sampling for treasures with a well-borer?

(I see one on TV - in Oak Island - Canada - but they know that there is a treasure below their
feet! and it works ! they find small pieces of gold in the bore rod ! )

So the conclusion is: can't use radioactivity to find gold items.

If Mineoro's or other LRL units work then is not by radioactivity (and not by ions - so whatever now?).

Best regards,
Max

Don't think so Max. Re-read Dell's post again.
"In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits ..."
Why would he or anyone use a Geiger counter to look for Gold Deposits (unless per chance they are looking for Gold deposits heavily laced with radioactive material)?

It was only after the Gold deposit was roughly located (with undescribed instrumentation) that they would pollute the area with
low grade radioactive material. If he had been using a Geiger counter as you thought he was doing, then why bury low grade radioactive material at all? If the Geiger counter worked from the airplane, it would certainly work even better on the ground.

So no, it doesn't wash.

It would be a lot simpler, more benign to the environment and more energy efficient, if Dell would just use a lapis philosophorum to get his gold.

[Rudy]

<SNIP>
That's true, but perhaps the power you suggest is not necessary.

I would suggest that we are metering an emenating "field" rising from a target element to the surface of land, or water, and measurable above the earth in mass to at least 3,000 feet above the surface of the earth.

"What has been done, can be done" Dell

Dell, in nature there is no such thing as a "free lunch".

Where does the energy to support this field come from? If it is Telluric in nature, then how is it that the presumed "field" produced by the Gold or other precious metal, is different from the "fields" that would also be given off by other non-precious matter in the neighborhood?