Demistifing ion chambers and snake oil

[Rudy]

Nothing extraordinary in the pictures.
It only shows that long time buried gold produce a strong air ionization which according to the right conditions are visible. The polaroid pictures shows that.
What about it? Mineoro claims this for eons. I know it's true. The pictures also..
Unfortunately the researcher in that site failed to conclude that it only happens to long time buried gold.
I always researched sites which people claimed to spot a fire ball on certain summer nights. The last one was in last july. The beeped and a gold vein was found.

Ohh, so you are now saying that it is the air itself that is the source of ions rather than the ions being gold.

You should read up on the latest research on the source of ball lighting.

[Dell Winders]

Where does the energy to support this field come from? If it is Telluric in nature, then how is it that the presumed "field" produced by the Gold or other precious metal, is different from the "fields" that would also be given off by other non-precious matter in the neighborhood?

Sorry Rude-y, there can be no discussion with you. I don't see the respect, or the aptitude for you to think outside the academic box you have securely shackled yourself within.

I never said Gold, or any chemical element produced a "Field". I don't know if it does, or not. Nor, did I say the composition of the target "field" was any different from that of other Chemical elements. Dell

[Dell Winders]

"What kind of detecting apparatus was being used?
Since the gold deposit locations where unknown, how did you figure you had actually detected them?
If the unknown target locations are by definition -unknown- how do you calculate a distance from the known location to the unknown location?
"
yes, right !

Hypothesis:

Max, I'm sorry! I was wrong about you being able to think beyond the box. Your questions and hypothesis shows me you can't.

I do appreciate the information you generously shared. Dell

[michael]

Old buried gold

Rudy and Max, I again thank for your info and too repeat my question, why don't you desire to answer me?
I repeat it as perhaps was ignored(# 25):
"one thing is brought up here: I want to ask from knowledgeable men about electronic ; Max, Rudy,.... Do you believe that old buried gold objects( not only gold, any kind of metal)
behave completely different than fresh ones? do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device? Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?
have you ever had such experiences? what I believe and before this have told; physic science or physic logics has it's own esteem, but experiences if not be standout, are not less important.
It's remarkable that I'm not going to advocate for any special producer or device, as I'm really one independent user."

Max, Rudy and other skeptics here! with courtesy, What have been your field experiences about what I pointed above?
Do you really want to get a useful conclusion or not just to show your college info and cast those in our teeth? of course all of the forum members want to learn more, no doubt, and I'm always a learner without any arrogation, but you as physic analyzers please benefit us at least me from your field experiences.
before this thread I tried to get a conclusion, but one radical and crabby skeptic who disliked to get result, shifted from answers, bustled and took discussion to dispute, to nowhere.

[Max]

Hi all, Thank you for your good points, especially Max, you're right about ion chambers.
like what happens in Atomic Absorption Detection for determining the elements in different materials. and it's obvious what is going in the claimed "ion chamber" in mineoro devices is not comparable to these technologies and.....
but one thing is brought up here: I want to ask from knowledgeable men about electronic ; Max, Rudy,....
Do you believe that old buried gold objects( not only gold, any kind of metal)
behave completely different than fresh ones? do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device? Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?
have you ever had such experiences? what I believe and before this have told; physic science or physic logics has it's own esteem, but experiences if not be standout, are not less important.
It's remarkable that I'm not going to advocate for any special producer or device, as I'm really one independent user.
but just decide at least take the discussion to a positive point to get a result or propound a subject to be observed much more.

Hi Michael,
I'll try to answer on the base of my experience in metal detecting. I have a little
knowledge of md compared to others in this forum but know that, sometimes, happen that
a target metal object buried in the ground for many years responds with an increased
signal than one can expect from a target of same composition, size, shape and depth.
This so called "halo" effect appears to be real and common to experience expecially
using vlf/ib machines (so CW -continuos wave detectors).

I don't know if it happens with gold - never experienced a halo effect with gold or
aluminium, but for sure can be present with brass(alloy), copper, silver and bronze(alloy).
Also iron seems to be a good candidate.
I'm sure that there are chemical interactions between the ground matrix and the metal
object if it's reactive interaction- so salts and other compounds can be produced in years all
around the target. I suppose also that the reactions can sometimes be partially reversed
having small granes of metal distribute in the surrounding matrix. This is a kind of
"migration" in the matrix.
The phenomenon is related to the ground composition and the kind of metal in the target -
so it's not a postulate that a metal, say bronze alloy, in any case, develop compounds
that migrate in the sorrounding matrix - it could simply oxidate in surface and not exibit
any halo effect.
Based on the composition one matrix can be "inhert" or "reactive" for a particular kind of
target. This inhertia is effectively frequent with gold - a very low reactivity metal that
only in particular conditions creates compounds (e.g. with HCN and CN groups or with mercury).
Anyway, this is elementar chemistry.

"do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device?"
uhm seems impossible --> don't know how

"Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?
have you ever had such experiences?"
Never. The deepest kind of machine out there is magnetometer but won't works with gold.
Maybe a good PI can detect such target but under 1.5 meters in air. Don't know.
Example could be:
- assuming the area exposed to induction is about 10cmx10cm
- a pulse star II can detect a 10cmx10cm square metal plate at 110cm (43'') using 2mx2m coil (from datasheet)
"what I believe and before this have told; physic science or physic logics has it's own esteem,
but experiences if not be standout, are not less important."
Yes, it's true. I think not everything was already discovered by science and also that good metal detecting
is a practice related task.

In future we'll discover new facts about physics or other sciences.
This don't mean that so-called-alternative science are all right or bad or nothing but commercial.
But without scientific evidences one cannot say - so a faith act must be performed.

I losed my faith in advertising so far ago.

My point of view is: many stuff out there simply don't works but sells. That's common in our world..

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Don't think so Max. Re-read Dell's post again.
"In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits ..."
Why would he or anyone use a Geiger counter to look for Gold Deposits (unless per chance they are looking for Gold deposits heavily laced with radioactive material)?

It was only after the Gold deposit was roughly located (with undescribed instrumentation) that they would pollute the area with
low grade radioactive material. If he had been using a Geiger counter as you thought he was doing, then why bury low grade radioactive material at all? If the Geiger counter worked from the airplane, it would certainly work even better on the ground.

So no, it doesn't wash.

It would be a lot simpler, more benign to the environment and more energy efficient, if Dell would just use a lapis philosophorum to get his gold.

Hi Rudy,
yes maybe I have to read twice. Anyway, I don't say I belive in this "aerial surveys for gold deposits".

Yes I think also lapis philosophorum will be the right choice...ehm
but then , to have enough, you must perform first an "aerial surveys for lead deposits".

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Max, I'm sorry! I was wrong about you being able to think beyond the box. Your questions and hypothesis shows me you can't.

I do appreciate the information you generously shared. Dell

Hi Dell,
you are welcome.

But beyond the box ? That box has a name -science-.

With it we can do anything we know in our modern world. Science is freedom.
Freedom of our mind, freedom from diseases, freedom from heavy work, freedom from pain
and one can continue for long time...has also drawbacks but it's another story.

Example:
If a snake bite your leg where are you going if not to the nearest hospital ?
or rely on someone claims , say alternative scientist, - maybe putting some sacre words on
the leg or some snake oil maybe- ?
I think you'll go to the hospital very quickly, and without asking if it is "academic boxed"
science there!
What I want to say is that, as rational human beings,
WE KNOW WHAT WE DO, WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DON'T - ANY OF US KNOWS
- BUT SOMETIMES ONE TAKES THE RISK OF BUYING SOMETHING PROMISING APPARATUS...

but most important science is truth.

I mean not all the truth in a specific time, anyway not, but it's truth.

You can experiment and find that what's inside e.g. a physics book is real and repeat it as
times as you want. It reflects what we know about our world and how it works.
Man takes control of his destiny when realized he can workaround some human limitations
using his knowledge.

Advertising, instead, is, by definition, a false message, because the only target is to
make industry sell products and earn money, not to explain exactly what the product is or
it can really do.

Commercial info and advertising are not truth.

I don't belive in them.

But I must remember that this isn't a philosopy forum and we need to talk about
technical facts here. It's "geotechnology" not "geofaith".
I'm not a preacher.


Best regards,
Max

[Jim]

Candidate for the Dill Winders Crybaby thread

Sorry Rude-y, there can be no discussion with you. I don't see the respect, or the aptitude for you to think outside the academic box you have securely shackled yourself within.

I never said Gold, or any chemical element produced a "Field". I don't know if it does, or not. Nor, did I say the composition of the target "field" was any different from that of other Chemical elements. Dell

Candidate for the Dill Winders Crybaby thread

[Jim]

Candidate for the Dill Winders Crybaby thread

Max, I'm sorry! I was wrong about you being able to think beyond the box. Your questions and hypothesis shows me you can't.

I do appreciate the information you generously shared. Dell

Candidate for the Dill Winders Crybaby thread

[okantex]

Hi Max

"Another issue is then the one related to IR detection. I've read a lot of posts regarding
IR detection using "leningrad 7" or something. Using an IR detector to find gold ???
"
I want to read that posts if it is possible.
can you give me links where you read posts.
and if you have documents about it can you mail me.
you have my mail address in your PM
thanks

[Max]

Hi Max

"Another issue is then the one related to IR detection. I've read a lot of posts regarding
IR detection using "leningrad 7" or something. Using an IR detector to find gold ???
"
I want to read that posts if it is possible.
can you give me links where you read posts.
and if you have documents about it can you mail me.
you have my mail address in your PM
thanks

Hi Otantex,
I've seen your private message and replied. Take a look.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Don't think so Max. Re-read Dell's post again.
"In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits ..."
Why would he or anyone use a Geiger counter to look for Gold Deposits (unless per chance they are looking for Gold deposits heavily laced with radioactive material)?

It was only after the Gold deposit was roughly located (with undescribed instrumentation) that they would pollute the area with
low grade radioactive material. If he had been using a Geiger counter as you thought he was doing, then why bury low grade radioactive material at all? If the Geiger counter worked from the airplane, it would certainly work even better on the ground.

So no, it doesn't wash.

It would be a lot simpler, more benign to the environment and more energy efficient, if Dell would just use a lapis philosophorum to get his gold.

Hi Rudy,
read it again...

when he sayd :

"In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits before GPS was available,
the instrumentation we used would detect and record Gold deposits but this
would only bring us in the proximity of the Gold for a ground search. "

seems that the general idea is :
from a plane they detected something by remote but without explaining
what kind of "instrumentation" was used, you are right

but so then

"
To locate the Gold deposit(s) we would bury 25 pounds of low grade Uranium ore in
2-3 locations within the general proximity of the aerial location, then wait 3-4 weeks.
The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold,
and metered the same as Gold with our instruments."

"wait 3-4 weeks." ???
"The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold,
and metered the same as Gold with our instruments." ???

what ? so I think he was talking about uranium/radiation propagation in the gold ore,
assuming, by this strange method, gold ore can manifest some particular and
detectable radioactive behaviour, and he've just mispelled saying that
"uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the gold"
where would be gold take some radioactive behaviour...anyway
Why wait 3 or 4 weeks if not to last enough time for a kind of propagation ?
If so (::sarcasm: one could setpoint the "instrument" to the uranium level (yeah!)
and detect gold position---> because they metered the same...uhm
Or the uranium-ore mutate in something else ???...ehm seems again we have to do with the famous lapis.

So uranium ore seems have two purposes:
1. mark known positions in the search field
2. create some kind of reaction with gold then they can discover exact gold ore position
comparing uranium-ore and unknown signals in the field

Because, if only 1. was needed (no GPS era), why to wait for 3-4 weeks ???

Are the 3-4 weeks that do ring a little bell in my head ah ah ah don't know you but for me this remote sensing thread is funny man!

Dell, where are you ? What do you mean for:

"To locate the Gold deposit(s) we would bury 25 pounds of low grade Uranium ore in
2-3 locations within the general proximity of the aerial location, then wait 3-4 weeks.
The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold,
and metered the same as Gold with our instruments."

Please explain better than this. Want to know exactly how you do these surveys.

and then

"
When we returned to the aera after an alloted time, we would detect the known locations
of the Uranium ore, as well as the unknown location of the Gold deposit, and by
calculating the distances between the known targets, and the unknown target we
could isolate and pinpoint the location of the Gold deposit.
"
pinpointing:
well this is clear enough and make sense, assuming the other stuff above,
but first one have to average locate the gold ore deposit,
that's what I can't realize how-to here.

Best regards,
Max

[okantex]

I do respect
but not agree with you

[okantex]

I do respect
but not agree with you

[okantex]

I do respect
but not agree with you