Ion Trap Mass Spectrometry

[Qiaozhi]

LRLs are based on a pseudoscientific concept. The principles are untenable and unfalsifiable (or at least difficult to disprove) and rely solely on anecdotes as evidence. LRLs do nothing for the advancement of metal detecting technology. All the evidence is subjective, and their claims do not stand up under close scrutiny.

So why do some people persist in an irrational belief in such quackery as "ionic detection" and "dowsing", to mention two of the most popular subjects on this forum? The answer appears to be purely psychological, and consists of a combination of selective memory and self delusion.

For Hung, the Mineoro has become "so last year", and he's now moved on to greater things. i.e. a modified Ranger Examiner. Although exactly how a cheap calculator glued to the top of a plastic case, and mounted on a swivel handle is supposed to detect anything is completely unclear. Goodness knows what the "modification" actually comprises. Maybe the calculator has been remounted with epoxy glue for greater stability. Who knows? This device is nothing more than a dowsing rod that has been dressed up with some nonsense electronics in order to trap the unwary. Buyer beware!

Have you also noticed how these "expeditions" are never undertaken using only LRL "technology"? There is always a trusty "conventional" metal detector there to save the day. The expedition usually begins with some careful research to get the treasure hunters in the right ball park. The LRLs are then used to subjectively confirm that this is the right location, and (of course) they all give consistent results. Next the real metal detector is used to locate the treasure, and finally the LRLs get the credit.

Such is life...

[robert]

Hi Seden and All,

Hi Robert !

Here you go guys.

Getting real real.

The Real Deal.

Part of what I do.

Lower noise the Electrometer

the lower the detection level.

This has schematics and source code.

Enjoy the read.

REAL detection of Ions in Air.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0501/0501106.pdf

JC1

[robert]

Very good points!


Among other true statements here (made by all of you) i would like to
extract the most significant for this subject:
"...Lower noise the Electrometer the lower the detection level..."
Bravo JC1!!! Whole point made in few words !!! This is crucial to
understand if we want to continue disscusion! After this, nothing else
can aprove main LRL's thesis about blah,blah lr principles and simillar!
That's why i suggested to Geo, first to experiment a while with Zahori and
than to make some conclusions further.
If we (low budget mortals) cant get high-tech to experiment, at least we can
"simulate" expensive processes with what we have...few wires and nuts...Hah!

Carl:
"If the protection fuse has been blown (and I assume it surely has) then the
only way is to decap the part and re-deposit the fuse metal using a focused
ion beam (FIB) machine. I've used a FIB service in Raleigh several times,
but it's very expensive, and they might not agree to FIB a microcontroller fuse."

Dependable of uP type. Whether is capacitive,resistive or diode matrix fuses
inside.
Some russian freaks established other method. Cut (sand)
plastic top of ic to make safety approach and using microscope soldering extra
thin fiber in fuse place! What a freaks! But at the end it works!
Rate of success was 90:10...good enough!
But i do not see point to do that on mineoro "uPc"...It is not even uPc..it is
some nonsenced choosen ic to "play the uPc role" there. Wired in manner not to
produce shorts in circuitry..That is all!
I had chance to check mineoro. Experiment with it. Measure signals in all lines..
Nothing! Sound is produced according to hums and interferences received by
"direct" receiver in small black box...(Carl already disected it)..Funny!
Anyway, this forum deserves more detailed approach to some real technology, that's
why i salute your last posts here!
Very Best regards!

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Seden and All,

Hi Robert !

Here you go guys.

Getting real real.

The Real Deal.

Part of what I do.

Lower noise the Electrometer

the lower the detection level.

This has schematics and source code.

Enjoy the read.

REAL detection of Ions in Air.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0501/0501106.pdf

JC1

Note that there is no mention of gold ions anywhere in the 274 pages of this thesis.

[Max]

Note that there is no mention of gold ions anywhere in the 274 pages of this thesis.

Hi,
not only...

"A thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy "

that explains all.

All this stuff need to work an inlet, a fan and other stuff LRL haven't and anyway is useful only to have an "idea" of what's in the air (gas, aerosol particles etc) but for the purpose of discovering how much smog there is !

As said all old books science (some dated 1880...), with newer adds of last years for a topic that could interest some climate scientist (maybe and maybe not)...but for sure not a single THunter in the whole world!

FOR JC1: I think that all this stuff is useful to find treasures as a 20 liters beer-tank to find way home at night (you must first drink it all...).

Best regards,
Max

[robert]

Whoa Cowboys !!!

Rein in them whips !!!

ow !!!

Hey where did the LRL stuff come from on

this thread??? NOT FROM ME thats for sure.

I never said that this was your little perfect

treasure detector.

YOU WILL HAVE TO FIGURE THAT ONE

OUT YOUR LITTLE SELFS.

The only thing I am saying is that

IF there was atomic size gold in the air

there is a way to detect it, properly.

Is it an easy little toy that can made?

NO.

That is my point.

and I thought the unit under question

was the one with some higher voltage

and a little chamber

that might be trying in some crude

fashion to emulate the real deal.

It probably is useless to find treasures

even in your face.

UNLESS SOMEONE CAN PROVE THERE

IS GOLD OR GOLD IONS IN THE AIR.

in which case it could work.

As I designed one to detect Nickel Metal

levels being exhausted from an industrial

smoke stake.

so I know I can detect and discriminate

Gold.

[robert]

And I am sorry the PHD thesis

did not exactly mention gold ions

and how to exactly find lost and hidden

treasures. Of course if it did.

YOU would already be out of luck.

Now wouldn't you?

Way behind the Power Curve.

[robert]

I shouldn't be posting here

anyway.

Much Later.

Bye.

Thanks Robert.

[Max]

Hi whoeveryouare,
please stop using the shareware robert login and use yours...

lets roll:

"I never said that this was your little perfect treasure detector."

ok, so what's the purpose if not what I have already explained (smog detector) and why publishing this stuff here ?

"
The only thing I am saying is that

IF there was atomic size gold in the air

there is a way to detect it, properly.
"

Are you really sure ? Also if you can, THERE ISN'T ANY IONIC GOLD IN THE AIR, well if you don't first detonate some nuke
So, what's the usefulness of what's described above ?

"It probably is useless to find treasures even in your face.
"
Totally agree and in your face too. Just is useless to find treasures at all.

"UNLESS SOMEONE CAN PROVE THERE IS GOLD OR GOLD IONS IN THE AIR.
in which case it could work."

Call NORAD to give you some "meteo" before going for treasures.

"
As I designed one to detect Nickel Metal

levels being exhausted from an industrial

smoke stake.

so I know I can detect and discriminate
"
Oh yes...ok...AND THEN ? Also my nose can detect too propane in the air...and I know it's propane...but I cannot sniff out any treasures, unfortunately.

"
And I am sorry the PHD thesis

did not exactly mention gold ions

and how to exactly find lost and hidden

treasures. Of course if it did.

YOU would already be out of luck.

Now wouldn't you?

Way behind the Power Curve.
"

Yes. Of course. I'm a brainless. Cause maybe I'll not buy any of this crappy LRL

"
I shouldn't be posting here

anyway.

Much Later.

Bye.

Thanks Robert.
"

I agree...cause you have nothing useful to say but just bugging me cause I'm talking about truth... life is hard.

Your thanks to robert are cause you are hiding using his shareware login ???

Listen to me...drink that beer! You'll feel better.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Max...give us break! He is member of RObert brotherhood, so better if he stay under RObert nick! Oh, almost forget! Max since you are "our type" of man we invite you to join RObert brotherhood! C'mon! Welcome!
Hah,hah,hah..!!!

Hi,
no dubt !
I'll join the team too.

Best regards,
Max

[robert]

Hi whoeveryouare,
please stop using the shareware robert login and use yours...

lets roll:

"I never said that this was your little perfect treasure detector."

ok, so what's the purpose if not what I have already explained (smog detector) and why publishing this stuff here ?

"
The only thing I am saying is that

IF there was atomic size gold in the air

there is a way to detect it, properly.
"

Are you really sure ? Also if you can, THERE ISN'T ANY IONIC GOLD IN THE AIR, well if you don't first detonate some nuke
So, what's the usefulness of what's described above ?

"It probably is useless to find treasures even in your face.
"
Totally agree and in your face too. Just is useless to find treasures at all.

"UNLESS SOMEONE CAN PROVE THERE IS GOLD OR GOLD IONS IN THE AIR.
in which case it could work."

Call NORAD to give you some "meteo" before going for treasures.

"
As I designed one to detect Nickel Metal

levels being exhausted from an industrial

smoke stake.

so I know I can detect and discriminate
"
Oh yes...ok...AND THEN ? Also my nose can detect too propane in the air...and I know it's propane...but I cannot sniff out any treasures, unfortunately.

"
And I am sorry the PHD thesis

did not exactly mention gold ions

and how to exactly find lost and hidden

treasures. Of course if it did.

YOU would already be out of luck.

Now wouldn't you?

Way behind the Power Curve.
"

Yes. Of course. I'm a brainless. Cause maybe I'll not buy any of this crappy LRL

"
I shouldn't be posting here

anyway.

Much Later.

Bye.

Thanks Robert.
"

I agree...cause you have nothing useful to say but just bugging me cause I'm talking about truth... life is hard.

Your thanks to robert are cause you are hiding using his shareware login ???

Listen to me...drink that beer! You'll feel better.

Best regards,
Max

You put alot of words in other peoples mouths

Max that they never said.

And then slam them on it.

My point in all of this

and of course you did not get it.

Want me to tell you why?

is that at best the Minero could only

be an ion detector. I never said there

were gold ions, I said IF.

And I said nothing about LRLs.

period.

you make alot of mistaken assumtions.

Must be rough.

I alos showed with the PHD paper

that Ions can be detected, but if you

looked at it, you could at least realize

several important facts. Like the ionic

fluence of the air is going to change

alot, and the real detection and seperation

of ions is more involved then these

hyped toys that are for sale, even if

they actually maybe do something

which they probably don't.

Yes I said Bye.

too bad.



Yea Robert !!!!

Long Live King Robert !!!!

[Qiaozhi]

You put alot of words in other peoples mouths

Max that they never said.

And then slam them on it.

My point in all of this

and of course you did not get it.

Want me to tell you why?

is that at best the Minero could only

be an ion detector. I never said there

were gold ions, I said IF.

And I said nothing about LRLs.

period.

you make alot of mistaken assumtions.

Must be rough.

I alos showed with the PHD paper

that Ions can be detected, but if you

looked at it, you could at least realize

several important facts. Like the ionic

fluence of the air is going to change

alot, and the real detection and seperation

of ions is more involved then these

hyped toys that are for sale, even if

they actually maybe do something

which they probably don't.

Yes I said Bye.

too bad.



Yea Robert !!!!

Long Live King Robert !!!!

Now that so many people are using the RObert-nic, it's getting a bit confusing.
But you can always tell when JC1 is posting, because of the short lines and extra line feeds in the text.

[Max]

You put alot of words in other peoples mouths

Max that they never said.

And then slam them on it.

My point in all of this

and of course you did not get it.

Want me to tell you why?

is that at best the Minero could only

be an ion detector. I never said there

were gold ions, I said IF.

And I said nothing about LRLs.

period.

you make alot of mistaken assumtions.

Must be rough.

I alos showed with the PHD paper

that Ions can be detected, but if you

looked at it, you could at least realize

several important facts. Like the ionic

fluence of the air is going to change

alot, and the real detection and seperation

of ions is more involved then these

hyped toys that are for sale, even if

they actually maybe do something

which they probably don't.

Yes I said Bye.

too bad.



Yea Robert !!!!

Long Live King Robert !!!!

Hi JC (are you JC right ?),
ok ok... you never said that it was an LRL or that there are gold ions in air.
Just my funny task to find if something useful on TH scenario could be made with this thesis... I can't!
I still can't see any good applications of that principles to THunting...maybe this is my fault. Anyway, yes some ions could be identified in air flow... and small particles too (PM2.5 PM10 etc) and that's fine e.g. in an environment control/logging station... I'm not disturbed of that.
All right.


---

Now, if we are talking about LRL ...(are we ? is this a thread in LRL subforum, and about ion-LRLing right ???):
Some LRL manifacturers claim that their devices can sniff ions or atoms:
I consider the idea of "sniffing for treasures" like I've described in previous post...nonsence. The beer example again but pointed vs LRL:

(no offence to anyone, just my point of view! )

I think that all these exotic LRLs are useful to find treasures as a 20 liters beer-tank to find way home at night (OPERATOR must first drink it all...).

So for the folks addicted to LRL devices...I suggest to make the test, drink all beer-tank at night then try to find way-home... I think that this little test could give a good idea of usefulness of these pearls of technology.

Best regards,
Max

[robert]

Yes JC1,

I put that on one.

And it is obvious.

And the Tone.

Anyway, one more time,

point is not to argue the exsist of

gold ions in great abundance,

and I might have a very hard time

finding a paper showing this. Why?

That is correct.

I am saying that the Minero

or gold ion detection, even IF

someone take shovels full of

pre ionized gold ions and throws

them in the air. It still requires

more trouble and effort to build

something like a time of flight

machine to seperate the ions,

and reconize the gold from everything

else. Now I happen to believe there are

Not many gold ions in air and we are not

going to suffer heavy metal poisoning from

breathing. But that is NOT my point.

The ions are not going to deflect any rods

either. That is NOT my point. MY point is

even IF, you still have to go to alot of trouble

and deal with a high change in fluence of ions

femtoamp low noise amplifiers, low noise high

voltage power supplies, proper shielding from

external RF sources, etc, etc, etc,

look at the paper.

I stole Robert's cause

I'm not registered.

I'm not registered because

I am a REBEL.

Old fashioned, old net.

probably going to lose this battle.

Now I really and truely have done

Mass Spec. stuff and designed ALL

the electronics. I have also done many

other things.

Sorry for the Tone.

I'm gruff, and grizzled.

Later.

[robert]

Oh and someone might say

but you have never used

the Minero so you cannot know.

I've never used a roll of toliet paper

for a spare tire either.

But I can tell you

It won't work.


Out of repect for Carl

and I have alot of respect

for Carl.

I should quit posting.

here.