Tesla Metal Detector by Lockheed Martin?!

[Seden]

Yeah buddy (American expression). Check out patent 5,982,180. Robert I know what your going to say:Well slap my willy! But alas it is true,Lockheed spells it out in their patent. Who would of thought this would happen?

Randy

[Clondike Clad]

patent 5,982,180

now show us somthing we wan test abd not read a patent on.
ANYONE CAN GET A patent ON A WHATYAMACALLIT.

[Seden]

Your a joker Clondike!

I don't know what country your in but obviously it's not the US. You need to become informed about who Lockheed is and their track record. Tell me please, what country are you in and be honest about it,do not hide.

Now, do your research about Lockheed and this time give us an intelligent response. A child could throw stones Clondike,that's easy.

Randy

[Max]

I don't know what country your in but obviously it's not the US. You need to become informed about who Lockheed is and their track record. Tell me please, what country are you in and be honest about it,do not hide.

Now, do your research about Lockheed and this time give us an intelligent response. A child could throw stones Clondike,that's easy.

Randy

Hi Randy,
I know who they are and I think he knows too. Maybe I'm wrong?
Think that the meaning of post was that patented technology means few if there aren't real devices developed. Of course, maybe there are!
Maybe just we haven't to know they exist...
Probably patent is just required to avoid that other subjects claim discovery of principles and start legal litigation for rights on future commercial/military applications.

They developed the XR-71 Blackbird and many other stuff. (NOT THE PI DETECTOR, BUT THE PLANE wonderful machine designed by Kelly Johnson & Co).

Best regards,
Max

[Seden]

Thank you Max

Max,

I'm pleased that you do know about Lockheed and also good insight to how Aerospace works regarding the patent process.

I didn't mean to jump on Clondike so hard but having worked at the Missle Systems group of Hughes Aircraft for a number of years plus a couple smaller Aerospace houses, he hit a raw nerve (and to be honest I just woke up and haven't had my first cup of coffee yet so my apologies to Clondike).
I have always appreciated your posts Max as your one of the few Engineers like Carl who respond in a professional manner even to the silliest of ideas put forth on this forum.
If you ever come to Los Angeles we can meet for lunch or dinner and I'm buying!

Randy

[Max]

Max,

I'm pleased that you do know about Lockheed and also good insight to how Aerospace works regarding the patent process.

I didn't mean to jump on Clondike so hard but having worked at the Missle Systems group of Hughes Aircraft for a number of years plus a couple smaller Aerospace houses, he hit a raw nerve (and to be honest I just woke up and haven't had my first cup of coffee yet so my apologies to Clondike).
I have always appreciated your posts Max as your one of the few Engineers like Carl who respond in a professional manner even to the silliest of ideas put forth on this forum.
If you ever come to Los Angeles we can meet for lunch or dinner and I'm buying!

Randy

Hi,
oh man... now I understand.
Thanks for the invitation... if I'll come there in the US, LA I'll be happy to meet you too.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Not Just a Whatchamacallit...

Hi Max and Seden. Thanks for the tip on the patent. This post is more for Clondike Clad to show him how to build the thing.

WHAT IS IT?
This is a fascinating concept for locating buried metal objects. While there is nothing cutting-edge used in this method or the components, the beauty lies in the simplicty of concept. The inventor claims that a Telsa coil can locate buried land mines better than other methods used today because of the visible spark pattern it makes on the perimeter of buried metal objects. This makes it easy to identify what the object is before digging it. The outline of metal components in land mines and other UXO can be seen from the spark pattern. These patterns can be checked against images of metal parts known to exist in different land mines and UXO. Seems like an elegant way to locate buried metal objects.

HOW DOES IT WORK?
The basic concept is to mount a very high voltage/low current source on a vehicle and send the voltage to a probe to scan above the ground in front of the vehicle. If there is sufficient voltage and charge present on this metal probe, it will tend to send sparks to the corners of conductive objects in the proximity. Apparently the inventor expects to see the outline of any buried metal objects reproduced in the sparks shooting down from this 50,000 volt electrode.

How CAN YOU BUILD IT?
I suppose you need a Tesla coil, a generator to feed power to it, and a vehicle to move the apparatus across the ground were you are searching. I would think you would also want this apparatus designed to keep the operator safe from any possible explosions that may happen in the event he found something explosive beneath the spark patterns.

The patent shows the apparatus mounted on the back of a truck and a long insulated boom delivering the charge forward of the vehicle. The coil is delivering 50,000 volts or more with less than 1 amp (I assume 1 amp rarely happens if at all, as the power supply is only 3000 watts). The inventor also shows a TV camera positioned to view the sparks emitting from the probe, and he describes the possibility of wearing dark filter goggles to help see the sparks during daylight hours.

CAN IT BE SCALED DOWN?
Now, if a hobbyist wanted to build a scaled down version for simple treasure hunting, it could be scaled down to a small gas powered generator and a home-built Tesla coil mounted on a small cart like a golf cart or dolly, or even hand-held if proper precautions were taken. A metal pipe electrode could be used to form a probe out in front where you get a good view of any sparks shooting into the ground. A more substantial version could be mounted on a Quad off-road vehicle, or in a pickup truck. The idea is to look for spark patterns that outline the shape of a treasure chest, or a mason jar, or maybe a coin if the pattern is tight enough.

WHAT PARTS TO USE?
A 3500 watt gasoline generator should have more than enough power, but 2500 watts should also work for slightly less spark power. I imagine even a small hand-held version could use a modified automotive alternator and 2-stroke engine to deliver power if you don't need very big sparks for your hunting. The probe can be nearly any conductor strong enough to suspend in a transverse direction in front of where you want to search. The Tesla coil must be able to shoot out an abundance of visible sparks maybe a meter or more. This means it should consume about 1000 to 4000 watts of power supplied, depending on how much sparking you want to see on your probe.

There are many plans for building Tesla coils on the internet. To build one successfully requires tuning the primary and secondary circuits to resonance, as well as winding the coils to the correct sizes, installing suitable capacitors, and a spark gap or other method to create the primary oscillator. Fortunately, there are many websites that show all the details of construction.

Here is a web page where for $9 you can download plans to build a 3000 watt Tesla coil that makes 60 inch sparks, suitable for a probe as detailed in the patent: http://www.amazing1.com/tesla.htm

Here is a web page where a Tesla coil builder shows photos of a coil he built from the plan set above. http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/tesla.html

Here is another Tesla coil builder's page: http://hot-streamer.com/greg/frames.htm

Here are links to help build a Tesla coil: http://amasci.com/tesla/high_voltage3.html

May the sparks fly

[Seden]

Excellant J Player!

You put alot of work into that explanation and drawings. Yes that would make for an interesting metal detector. I wonder if you could get anymore information by looking at the spectrum of the earth currents. what I envision is an untuned ferrite coil antenna mounted inside a u shaped faraday shield with the open side facing the earth to shield it from the spark discharge. You'd have to have it somewhat away from the spark but would be interesting in the frequency domain.

Randy

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,

When a High voltage Tesla coil discharges, it creates broadband radio noise of frequencies that are greatly influenced by the choice of capacitors and inductors, as well as the construction methods. The kind of coil used in this patent would be expected to generate radio noise far in excess of what is allowed by the FCC in the USA and most other radio regulating agencies around the world. So I would suspect this device is illegal for anyone who doesn't have a government permit to operate it. I expect that some governments would issue permits for the purpose of locating UXO under controlled conditions.

But assuming that it was permitted, here are some thoughts:
1. If you are intrested in studying the frequency spectrum of EM noise generated by the high voltage, it is not necessary to use the gross amount of power needed to see large sparks up to 2 meters long. A small, battery / inverter powered coil could probably do the job just as well. This does not necessarily need to be a Tesla coil, but a Tesla coil generally is more efficient. At lower power levels, the device may be within radio noise regulations.

2. When a spark discharges into the ground, one phenomenon that occurs is that molecules in the air and on substances at the nearby ground can become ionized, and possibly objects under the ground depending on the electrical properties of the object and the surrounding ground.

3. Another phenomenon that occurs is you have certainly created an artificial electric field anomaly in the air where the high voltage probe is located. There is a natural voltage gradient in the atmosphere approximately 100 v/meter that becomes more positive as you increase the altitude. This gradient is upset by the very existence of the high voltage coil and probe. And the high voltage will influence much more than the immediate location of the coil. A 50,000 volt probe may make a distortion in the natural atmospheric voltage gradient that extends as much as a mile. While this is probably not of interest to you, those who are interested in static fields and detecting ionization may be concerned.

4. When the sparks discharge into the ground, you can expect ground currents to flow from the location where the spark hits the ground to the ground lead on the high voltage coil. (This ground lead would probably be connected to a dragging strap conductor, or possibly a conductor rigged to the wheel of the vehicle to always make contact with the ground). In any case there would be some current flow through the ground to the coil ground lead. The path of this current flow Would be expected to be concentrated in a line, but could be spread and angled to several directions depending on the composition of the ground materials. The currents flowing in the ground would have some influence on your equipment to detect the spectrum, as it may provide a stronger signal when your sensor is closer to where the current is flowing, and aligned in a plane to best capture the magnetic component (I presume) of the noise.

5. There are 2 sources of radio noise, from the primary Tesla coil circuit and associated spark gap, and from the secondary coil circuit which sends sparks to the ground. Each of these circuits can be expected to emit broadband noise with several frequencies and harmonics to be very pronounced. When you are measuring the spectrum, you may decide to make corrections for known frequencies and their strengths. ie: you may want to use noise canceling methods such as subtracting the spectrum components known to exist when there is no target in the path.

Personally, I doubt you will find any correlation between the spectrum you measure and the presence of treasures. For one, the broadband noise of an arcing Tesla coil is enough to smother your ability to sense the minute signals that LRL operators are usually looking for. Secondly, some of the prerequisites for LRL-style frequency discrimination have been destroyed by the presence of the high voltage equipment and lightning bolts. If you are successful in canceling the non-target related noise, then I would think you have a chance of testing to see if the sensed spectrum correlates to buried targets.

But I may be wrong. I have never measured the broadband spectrum under high voltage discharge conditions near a buried target. And some LRL proponents may argue that a high voltage positive charge from a Tesla coil actually helps locate buried targets if the coil is not sparking.

It would be interesting to see what you find out.

[Elie]

Why is this in remote sensing?

[Seden]

Why Not?

Elie,

Check out the thread about Andreas's LRL regarding Tesla coils.

J Player,yeah good point and I guess I'd have to pick off the transmit noise and subtract it from the signal + noise of the broadband loop.

To be honest though if I'm going to bother with a wide band noise, I'd just as soon use a white noise generator,amplify it and send it into the ground via ground rods. Now that I think should show a distinction for differant kinds of metals frequency wise and definately amplitude and phase wise. I would use a standard metal detector type loop to receive the signal with and into a miniture spectrum analyzer such as the handheld variety. Food for thought I spose.
Speaking of remote sensing,let's say their was a vein of gold,copper,or silver,I wonder how far you could pick up the variation in the white noise with perhaps an E-field antenna or a ferrite loop?
I remember reading in an old issue of the California Mining Journal from the early 60's, where a guy hooked up a meter to his AM radio,tuned it in-between stations and would watch for variations in the strength in the noise as he drove along to locate mineralized soil or was it a deposit or oil,I don't remember. Pretty clever though for a seat of the pants idea.

Randy

[J_Player]

Frequency detecting

Why is this in remote sensing?

It appears that Seden is attempting to discover a link between high voltage and long range locating. Perhaps he wonders if there is some frequency he can detect from a long distance with a spectrum analyzer while using equipment described in the patent. Why are you posting in remote sensing?


A number of experimenters have noted variations in AM broadcast frequency strength as they moved past large anomalies in the ground. A LRL which claims to work on this principle is manufactured by Vernell Electronics. They have units which send out a low-power AM radio signal in the UHF band, and use a loop antenna to survey the signal strength in a field in front of the transmitting antenna. The frequency they use is unknown, but Mike(Mont) says he read on a Chinese website that the VR1000B uses 400-3000 Mhz. I presume he means that the transmitter is adjustable to a series of preset frequencies in that range. Carl has one of these machines which he claims is a piece of crap. Dell Winders says he found the Vernell Electronics locators worked successfully for him on a boat, airplane and land searching until "operating conditions deteriorated affecting the reliability of the instrument making it impractical for my use in 1988". Dell never described what operating conditions deteriorated.

The Vernell Electronics machines come to mind because they are looking at AM signals as you intend to do, and they have defined a range of frequencies where they expect to find results, rather than a white noise source. Of particular interest is that Vernell uses a coil to broadcast the UHF signal rather than an antenna. He also uses a coil which is slightly smaller than a sheet of paper to survey the signal strength. In his newer VR5000, the coil is replaced by the "scan gun", which is probably a smaller coil and possibly other apparatus inside a plastic housing.

Note the range of frequencies Vernell uses are basically the UHF range, not the AM broadcast range. I suspect this is because the size of a UHF wave is closer to the target size than AM broadcast waves, and possibly this makes it easier to pinpoint a buried metal object. While Vernell sells locators that operate in the UHF range, I have read about experimenters who noted signal strength variations in the AM broadcast range as well as the FM broadcast range and short wave bands. I suppose these experimenters did not investigate the UHF band because this band had limited use at the time they did their experiments (they didn't have a spare adjustable UHF receiver lying around back in those days). Also, Dell has stated "conditions deteriorated". Perhaps you would have a more difficult time to detect the signal strength today than the experimenters back in the 60s. Consider that today, we are inundated with UHF noise that comes from everything from cell phones, microwave ovens and wireless LANs to radar installations. There are also references to environmental changes that happened about the time Dell described.

Be sure to look at the Vernell instruction manual section and the photos to get ideas how he uses his LRL equipment. Here is the website for Vernell Electronics products: http://www.vrdetectors.com/products.cfm

Also check this forum thread for more details: http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/s...ad.php?t=13089

[Seden]

Because it's relevant J-player

J-Player,first of all I'm surprised at you not reading carefully my post. As I mentioned to Elie, I'm trying to find a rationale of how Andreas LRL works with his Tesla Coil antennas.

Also I wanted to make a correction on my post,you can't measure the phase of white noise and the other thing I posted about subtracting the white noise source from the signal+noise of the untuned ferrite loop would be difficult at best due to not only the delay time differences but the characteristics of both lines far as their frequency response,oops! My mistake Gentlemen.

But yes this thread very much so belongs in Remote Sensing. If you haven't read through the thread on Andreas's circuit now would be a great time,lot's of discussion,then come back and let's dialog.

Randy

[Elie]

Check out the thread about Andreas's LRL regarding Tesla coils.

So why not put it there? The patent itself has nothing to do with long range locators.

[Seden]

Aw c'mon Elie!

Nicht verstehst du mein Englisch? I know you just screwing with me,trying to get my goat eh? Ok do you want it in English or Deutsch? I SAID THE REASON FOR THIS THREAD WAS TO FLESH OUT THE RATIONALE FOR ANDREAS DESIGN and also I thought it was kinda interesting to see someone(Lockheed) actually using HV to metal detect along with my other thoughts. Also unlike J Player's not understanding my intentions-I AM NOT TRYING TO DESIGN AN LRL-GOT IT ?!
Look Elie,let's just agree that we can all post and share our thoughts and ideas freely. It's always good to do this as you learn things from others like I have with Max or Carl,and as you discuss ideas sometimes you see something you wouldn't of had you not discussed this with other technical people.
There's alot of things I'd like to try out and for me a long range locator would be if I could stand back 10,20 or 50 feet and be able to detect the target. What I'm looking for are ideas for a type of system whereby I can survey a large placer deposit and locate the spot where the heavies are (Geological term in the case of placer gold deposit where the largest pieces of gold would be in an Ancient River Deposit).
I certainly would welcome your techical expertise otherwise I am not posting anymore on this thread .

Randy