some cosiderations

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Perhaps you misunderstood my questions. I made no mention of Mineoro or gold ions floating in the air in my last few posts. I was not asking about a gold coin dropped on the ground 50 years ago. I am asking about gold that has been deep in the ground over perhaps 200 years or longer, such as a hoard of gold jewelry that may have been buried 2 meters deep or more during the Spanish galleon period or gold ore deposits. I do not make any correlation to Mineoro or it's ability to find anything. I am only talking about the transport of metallic gold by means of dissolution and movement in the soil, as has been suggested in over a million web page reports.

The links that were posted as evidence of gold ions being released from longtime buried gold, in fact have very little specific references to gold.

I provided two references. One is for nearly 300,000 web page reports of the MMI process giving good results in locating long time buried gold and other ores with chemical and electronic instrument methods of measuring gold and other metal ionization at the surface. The other reference is for over a million web page reports of geotechnical scientists and technicians documenting a large array of microbes transporting gold from deep beneath the soil. These reports have been ongoing for several decades, showing that much more than trace amounts gold and other metals are ionized and sometimes reconstituted as metal in the soil in different locations from where it originally existed.

In fact they quote "For example a Cu, Pb, Zn base metal deposit will emit (release) Cu, Pb and Zn ions.". Hmmmm.... no gold then??

If you read any of the reports of 300,000 links, you will find all of sites showing MMI testing are about testing for gold ions. Apparently you did not read many of the 300,000 reports. There are thousands of reports of measuring gold ions from surface soil using MMI methods, and gold mines in over 30 countries paying to have these tests performed. Take another look at these links: http://www.google.com/search?q=mmi+g...n&start=0&sa=N

Is there some reason you are avoiding answering my questions and trying to steer the discussion to Mineoro?

Nowhere in these reports have I found any reference to Mineoro or metal ions hovering in a cloud in the air above a buried mass of metal or ore. And the reports in my second reference only describe metals that are digested and chemically altered by microbes in the ground. These reports describe how metals can be ionized, moved and concentrated by microbes. They are not reports about long range locating machines. They are reports about geophysics and geotechnology to measure the discoveries they found. They are also reports about novel methods to utilize these microbes to advantage in dealing with processing ores, waste cleanup and contamination control.

What I initially asked was your opinion about the existence of these ions in the soil and the microbes creating gold nuggets as claimed by those reports I referenced. While I did not list each website, I gave a google link that lists over a million reports. Surely you found more than a few reports showing electron micrographs of the gold atoms inside microbe bodies and gold deposited as metal by microbes. I will be happy to provide a long list of pages of specific research showing longtime buried gold being ionized and/or reconstituted as metal if you are unable to find them at this search link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...il&btnG=Search

The questions I asked were not about building an LRL based on the principles of Mineoro. They were about the chemistry and methods of gold metal and ions moving in the soil as described in the research reports, and about the possibility of constructing an electronic instrument to sense these ions from over 20 feet distance. The method of using Mineoro principles was not included in my questions or in any of the links I provided.

The only reason I asked you these questions is because you have a strong background in physics and electronics. Is it possible to answer the questions about these reports without ignoring the overwhelming body of evidence of large scale gold-processing microbes, the 2-decade long history of measuring gold ion anomalies in the surface soil to locate gold deposits, and without changing the topic to Mineoro or their theories?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

They are not reports about long range locating machines. They are reports about geophysics and geotechnology to measure the discoveries they found. They are also reports about novel methods to utilize these microbes to advantage in dealing with processing ores, waste cleanup and contamination control. J_P

OK - firstly I'm not a chemist. My reason for querying this line of discussion is because this is the Remote Sensing forum, and I'm not sure whether this has any relevence to LRLs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this whole subject of gold ions was triggered by the very idea of longtime gold emitting gold ions into the atmosphere, and that these gold ions could be detected and characterized from a distance of a mile or even more. Whether trace elements of gold are detectable in lab tests involving samples of top soil have any merit, I am not qualified to comment. I know someone who is a distinguished chemist, and I will certainly ask him when I next have the opportunity.

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Apparently you have not read Carl's intro post in this forum, or the web pages I posted as a reference to gold ions in the ground. Otherwise you would not be asking me to correct you if you are wrong:

My reason for querying this line of discussion is because this is the Remote Sensing forum, and I'm not sure whether this has any relevence to LRLs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

If you read Carl's intro post at the top of the Remote Sensing forum, you will find it is not an LRL forum, but includes scientifically viable methods as well as the less scientific method of "long-range locating"

The term "remote sensing" is used to describe scientifically viable methods of detecting geophysical anomalies from a distance. It is also used to describe the less scientific method of "long-range locating", which is engulfed in controversy.

This forum is for the open discussion of either method. ...

So how do ions and gold-eating microbes have anything to do with remote sensing?
The answer quickly becomes apparent to those who read the reports in the links I posted. After reading these reports, you will be able to see how scientists have been successful in locating gold and other ores quite some distance from the locations they take the samples. In these reports you will see they are locating buried gold more than a few meters depth. Many of the gold mines where MMI surveys are made are finding gold over 2000 feet deep in locations indicated by these gold ion anomalies at the surface. The majority of the gold is found at much shallower depths. But all the testing with the MMI method is capable of finding gold at depths greater than any conventional metal detector could. The gold-digesting microbes are also marking spots where there is gold out of the reach of conventional metal detectors. Thus, these are classified as a "remote sensing methods".

I am at fault for not considering you are not a chemist, and therefore not qualified to make comments on any of this research. Your distinguished chemist friend's comments may prove helpful. In the meantime I suppose we must confine this discussion to laymen in geochemistry and electronics as you see posting above.

Thank you for your input, and best wishes,
J_P

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Also men eat metals. LooK!!! In this moment the man is eating the main food. In the table, some candy-iron, nail-wine and other delicious things!!! Helps a good Chilean wine!!! Salute populi, Ferrodigestor te salutant!

[Qiaozhi]

Hi J_Player,

OK - you are correct. Carl's Intro says: "The term "remote sensing" is used to describe scientifically viable methods of detecting geophysical anomalies from a distance. It is also used to describe the less scientific method of "long-range locating", which is engulfed in controversy."
I guess we've spent so much time battling with the controversial side of remote sensing that I'd forgotten the original definition.
So- does anyone really know whether this stuff works or not?

[Mike(Mont)]

Anyone who doesn't think ion detection is real hasn't done any research. The government has 'em. It's not a matter if they are real, just how well they work under what conditions that they can be detected from a distance.

Heaven forbid I bring up the word "dowsing", dowsers have been able to sense ionic fields/flows. Cosmic rays, solar rays, radioactive substances have a disintegrating effect on many elements.

Somewhat off-topic, I saw a portable ion sniffer for negative/positive ions (under $200US). I think the site is http://www.negativeiongenerators.com and click ion detector or you can do a google search for ion sniffer and see some other info, too.

Why negative ions? If you can find an area with high negion concentration, sit there for twenty minutes and get charged. Many say it can increase psychic ability. If nothing else, it feels good and it might even help cure sickness, depression, etc.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Molecular or atomic vibration, infrared and more... Hmmm, I remember all this in threads...

http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/student/lawrence1/lawrence.htm

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

I guess we've spent so much time battling with the controversial side of remote sensing that I'd forgotten the original definition.
So- does anyone really know whether this stuff works or not?

I was actually surprised to find so much information on these methods to locate deep buried gold, and the amount of research that went into the MMI methods, as well as into the study of strange microbes transforming metals deep in the ground. I was even more surprised that nobody in this forum seems to know much about this.

Apparently there is a lot of money driving this research. In the MMI survey industry, the driving force is primarily mining exploration that expects to get a good return on their investment. Some of these mines spend over $60,000 USD for a MMI survey, and expect a return much greater. MMI methods are also used to determine the presence of certain desirable minerals in the soil for agricultural purposes, to show what kind of soil additives would be helpful.

The money driving the research into microbes is much larger. These metal-digesting microbes have been found in rock matrix over 2 miles deep within mines. There is a good deal of support from mining companies all over the world. There is also a large investment into this research by government agencies who want to develop methods for waste cleanup and contamination control. They discovered certain of these microbes can process nuclear waste materials to keep them from becoming soluble, and others that can help in containing other toxic heavy metal contaminants in the soil. The real bulk of the research is about microbes that survive and thrive in environments that don't generally support life, and process these toxic materials in ways to make them environmentally safe. In the path of all this research, researchers discovered microbes that survive in toxic gold chloride and other gold complexes that are found in the soil as well as in a laboratory. The million references I found on gold-processing microbes are only a small by-product of the larger body of research.

What surprises me is that nobody in this forum has ever mentioned anything about these microbes or the mining companies who look for the presence of certain kinds of gold-digesting microbes to locate gold. This method has been going on for years.

This thread may have all started out as a joke about Mineoro's claims that gold ions hover in the air above buried gold, but it lead to a large body of research that demonstrates and documents subterranean gold processing.

It appears to me the subterranean gold ion methods used today are in their infancy. It seems that chemical and/or electronic improvements can and will be made to make better use of what the researchers have discovered. There is no fake science in these studies. It is all understandable and can be improved with real electronics and physics.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Anyone who doesn't think ion detection is real hasn't done any research. The government has 'em. It's not a matter if they are real, just how well they work under what conditions that they can be detected from a distance.

Heaven forbid I bring up the word "dowsing", dowsers have been able to sense ionic fields/flows. Cosmic rays, solar rays, radioactive substances have a disintegrating effect on many elements.

Somewhat off-topic, I saw a portable ion sniffer for negative/positive ions (under $200US). I think the site is http://www.negativeiongenerators.com and click ion detector or you can do a google search for ion sniffer and see some other info, too.

Why negative ions? If you can find an area with high negion concentration, sit there for twenty minutes and get charged. Many say it can increase psychic ability. If nothing else, it feels good and it might even help cure sickness, depression, etc.

Hi,
"Why negative ions? If you can find an area with high negion concentration, sit there for twenty minutes and get charged. Many say it can increase psychic ability. If nothing else, it feels good and it might even help cure sickness, depression, etc."

ehm... there are also GIRLS!

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

ehm... there are also GIRLS!

I heard girls have a remarkable ability to locate gold, long distance or short.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

In the path of all this research, researchers discovered microbes that survive in toxic gold chloride and other gold complexes that are found in the soil as well as in a laboratory.

Have a look here at the details of gold chloride -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold(III)_chloride
As you can see it is highly soluble in water.

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Interesting reference about the chemistry of gold chloride.

Here are some links showing studies of microbes surviving in gold chloride solutions and eating gold chloride in a lab:

Report shows metallic gold droppings left behind by microbes digesting gold chloride: http://www.geobacter.org/press/2001-07-21-economist.pdf

Here is a lab report with photo evidence of microbes transforming gold chloride to colloidal gold: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf

Most of the chloride compounds in that wiki reference could not exist in the ground in large amounts, but possibly in traces, in combination with other chemical reactions. In the gold chloride experiments, the foremost researcher into gold-eating microbes discovered that 90% of a single microbe specie died in the poisonous gold chloride. But the surviving 10% adapted to the toxic solution and digested the gold ions and precipitated them into gold metal that you see in the photos.The test with microbes in gold chloride in the lab demonstrated that microbes can ionize and digest gold. But the microbes acting chemically on gold in the soil are probably not involved with gold chloride as much as with other chemicals. There are several chemical processes that have been documented in different locations depending on the soil conditions. In soils with high organic content, the microbe strains that dissolve gold are mostly microbes that produce cyanide and organic acids and complexes which react with metallic gold and bind it in the complex. This complex goes into solution in the soil, and moves with the subterranean moisture. Much different microbes that live only on metallic gold surfaces are able to digest the dissolved ions and precipitate them onto the nuggets where they live. Various chemical mechanisms have been documented, but the researchers are still working to unravel the mysteries of how these processes change in different soils. Apparently the ability of microbes to adapt to their environment is an important part of the puzzle.

Here are a few pages about cyanide producing microbes that are believed to dissolve gold:

Microscopic plants and fungi Produce cyanide which is thought to have dissolved ancient gold deposits in alluvial sands:

http://books.google.com/books?id=L8Be8rprGgkC&pg=PA495&lpg=PA495&dq=microbe+gold+cyanide&source=web&ots=E9FBKen7LJ&sig=jaLBLd1JAjV9BDA5NOEGPuoR_co#PPA494,M1

30 species of microorganisms including bacteria, yeasts, actinomycetes, fungi and algae were found to accumulate gold from laboratory solutions. This abstract also describes how Pseudomonas cells can be treated to absorb and desorb gold on demand. http://www.springerlink.com/content/u142554485g84k31/

Microbes moving gold in Southern Australia by various chemical methods:

http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf

So where is this going?
My feeling is there will be much done with the chemical engineering of gold-eating microbes to help extract gold from the soil. While this may be important to large mining companies, it is of little use to us treasure hunters unless we have some scheme to cause the microbes to precipitate the gold in large scale amounts concentrated somewhere that we can harvest it.

Where does that leave us?
A more likely approach for the average treasure hunter looking for a buried target or perhaps soil with high concentration of natural gold is to consider the electrical aspects of these microbe processes.

Ground instruments?
In addition to the eating gold, microbes are often eating other metals in combination with gold. Because these microbes are causing gold to ionize as well as other metals, we see exchange and movement of electrons, much like the "ground battery" Franco has been telling us about. Is it possible there are measurable anomalies that we could recognize as a "ground battery"? Would these underground movements of electrons be measurable with existing equipment such as ground resistivity? or SIP methods? Are there ways we could modify the current tools to locate the areas where this gold-eating microbe activity is happening?

Atmospheric instruments?
Measuring the soil is only one method that occurs to me. We all know there is an electric gradient in the air above the ground that increases about 100 volts/meter, and can go as high as 300 volts/meter in the winter. Assuming clear weather conditions, we expect this to be a uniform field over flat uniform ground. But what happens if there is an area of the ground that has a concentration of metal ions due to microbal chemical reactions? Would the electric field of the atmosphere show a measurable anomaly in the air around the ground with the metal ions, or around the "ground battery" condition? Could we measure anything with a sensitive enough electronic instrument that had proper shielding?

Let the skeptics accept the real science they expect pseudoscientists to accept:
We have already discovered over a million web page reports that pretty much shatter the myth that gold does not ionize in the soil. Perhaps none of us would have believed it had not some researchers photographed these microbes and measured the gold ions they are processing. Even though the concentration of gold ions is measured in parts per billion at the surface, there are people measuring it and pinpointing gold deposits.

The question is: Are any of us as good in innovating electronic ways to locate the loot as the researchers can by using their chemicals?

Best wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
Perhaps this instruments already exist, the Esteban' pistol or Andreas' locator, for example! They have in common a coil that it generates a transmitter magnetic field and a receiver coil that it senses some modification 1 or 2 meters near the instrument. I think that the crucial point it's an interaction between the electric field above the ground and the artficial magnetic field. As Esteban says no alien technology but old VLF metal detector technique it's sufficient for our purpose!
Tomorrow I go in ferie in Switzerland for 2 weeks and without internet possibility...
Best wishes

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Yes, Esteban is correct in this point. Metal detector can sniff at some meters object size of a coin. A good system is off-resonance type at frequency between 60 to 160 Khz. Always, here, the problem is that this system need metal buried for some years for to be detectable. IR is very but VERY GOOD. No for to measure the temp, no, as a type of antenna that collect the phenomenom, an "electric field", or directly IR emission of metals. He post many types of pistols olds and news, so is a reality. I found a small object that EVER causes problem in electronic long distance detector, look in the video that is not very insistent for the size, but there are. The object I found (several times found the same type) causes a RESONANCE or microspark, DON'T KNOW, but Esteban discover this effect he call "effect E", at 5-7 meters of the detector-system. Download video here (take with cellular, sorry quality), more than 2 Mb:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/smrfnz

More later the object.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

The object. Question that I can't answer: Why is very well detectable, independent of the size? During transmission of oscillator the frequency scape as spark in the gap an causes the good detection??? The off resonance detector is in combination secondary RF detector.