some cosiderations

[J_Player]

Hi Dell,

Thanks for the good thought.

For the record, I am not an EE, I am not affiliated with any EE or other person in this forum, and I do not encourage buying any products that are not demonstrated to work live in front of a buyer to his satisfaction as the advertising descriptions characterize it working.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Very Good, JP. At last, after years of wasted time being bashed watching the Skeptic monkey can only do what monkey see Carl, do mentality, it's good to see an EE on this forum that employs rational thinking and excellent logic. Keep up the good works. Dell

Hi Dell,
we are just discussing the topic... in a scientific prospective.
I'm still puzzled about many things, you know I'm SKEPTIC on the LRL topic in general and commercial-LRL in particular.

That doesn't mean I'm not open mind, like someone said here... before you !

Just that any approach using star-trek's pistols and uncle-dowsing-rods... will fail finding any gold Dell, by definition.

Or have you decided to partecipate and win the Carl's LRL Challenge ???
(to demonstrate that your commercial-LRLs work )

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

It appears to me the reason you can't imagine a method of locating buried metal from a long distance is partly because your source of information is not good. It appears you are relying on commonly believed ideas rather than looking at the research that shows what is really observed and known.

For an example, suppose I said I can locate Carl's 10 ounce gold bar buried 2 inches deep in soil using only an instrument that measures the existing magnetic field. Suppose I said I could locate this gold bar buried in one of ten locations spaced 10 feet apart from each other, in an area of land that I choose within 10 miles of where Carl lives. If I conducted a magnetic survey over the soil where the gold might be buried using only an instrument to measure the existing magnetic field, and not allowing the magnetometer to actually touch the soil, do you believe I cannot find the gold bar?

Here are my 3 questions for you:
1. Do you believe I could find Carl's 10 ounce gold bar with this magnetic field instrument on the first try?
2. Do you believe I could find Carl's 10 ounce gold bar with this magnetic field instrument 7 times out of 10?
3. Do you think Carl would allow me to keep the 10 ounce gold bar if I was able to locate it with this magnetic field instrument 7 times out of 10?

(Hint: No way! Carl is too smart to let me use a magnetometer to locate his gold bar and win any prize from him)

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,

It appears to me the reason you can't imagine a method of locating buried metal from a long distance is partly because your source of information is not good. It appears you are relying on commonly believed ideas rather than looking at the research that shows what is really observed and known.

For an example, suppose I said I can locate Carl's 10 ounce gold bar buried 2 inches deep in soil using only an instrument that measures the existing magnetic field. Suppose I said I could locate this gold bar buried in one of ten locations spaced 10 feet apart from each other, in an area of land that I choose within 10 miles of where Carl lives. If I conducted a magnetic survey over the soil where the gold might be buried using only an instrument to measure the existing magnetic field, and not allowing the magnetometer to actually touch the soil, do you believe I cannot find the gold bar?

Here are my 3 questions for you:
1. Do you believe I could find Carl's 10 ounce gold bar with this magnetic field instrument on the first try?
2. Do you believe I could find Carl's 10 ounce gold bar with this magnetic field instrument 7 times out of 10?
3. Do you think Carl would allow me to keep the 10 ounce gold bar if I was able to locate it with this magnetic field instrument 7 times out of 10?

(Hint: No way! Carl is too smart to let me use a magnetometer to locate his gold bar and win any prize from him)

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi JP,
"If I conducted a magnetic survey over the soil where the gold might be buried using only an instrument to measure the existing magnetic field, and not allowing the magnetometer to actually touch the soil, do you believe I cannot find the gold bar? "

Is a rethoric question ?
But are we talking about LRL not about "preventive surveys" here... ?

Can you locate the gold bar without making a preventive survey ???

NO.

That's the point. So Earth magnetic field distortions caused by e.g. a gold bar aren't useful in LRL. Or you say that you could locate the gold bar anyway (without a preventive survey)?

Kind regards,
Max

[Dell Winders]

Or have you decided to partecipate and win the Carl's LRL Challenge ???
(to demonstrate that your commercial-LRLs work )

That question is so ridiculous, and is asked over & over again to promote Carl's agenda of riducule and untruths.

My answer is still the same. NO! NO! NO!

My products cannot do as you or Carl, seem to expect of them, and cannot pass Carl's, stupid Gimmick Challenge test.

You are playing the same old Skeptic Org. broken record.

I was informed with Randi, standing right beside me, that I only got 6 of the 8 tests he conducted correct. That is considered no better than chance guessing. Randi, said, more testing would have to be done before any conclusions could be reached.

I agree, and I have done years of Field testing with the present LRL configurations . I know the limitations, and have experienced the benefits.

Carl's challenge has no Scientific merit, and is meaningless when it is designed to be un-winnable by LRL except by rare chance luck. It is a sham, a publicity gimmick and you fall hook line & sinker for it, I know better. So, you can give up his bark up my tail and try to learn what real Science investigation is about from JP's example.

Don't critize me, or my products. I do not lie, and The do as I claim they do. Just prove that you can build something less expensive, that works better than I am presently using and I will buy from you.

Promoting Carl's, Skeptic mockery of others to cover up your own ignorance is a poor excuse for being closed minded to reality and the truth. Dell

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

You forget, when we are looking for long time buried metal, there is often a column of metal ions in the soil that begins at the buried metal and continues to the surface. The effects of such an anomaly in the soil have several implications that will cause measurable changes in the telluric properties beneath the soil. Are you aware that mining companies use both telluric and magnetotelluric methods to explore the structure beneath the ground and find ore bodies? Or do you only rely on commonly believed ideas that suggest these methods are not useful to locate metals under the ground? Have you ever read the reports on the precision of gamma detectors used in mining exploration?

Your previous post said many things that are only common beliefs rather than facts. The real facts do not exist in the top of your head. They can be found by reading the reports from researchers who actually measure these things. When you use faulty information from the top of your head, then you can expect to reach faulty conclusions. But if you were to study the actual findings from people who took the trouble to measure these things, then you would have better information to decide what is possible.

Big task find one suitable principle

I do not believe that measuring one single physical property is a good solution to constructing a long range locator. I believe a reliable LRL will measure an anomaly within the context of several supporting influences associated with the buried target. Thus I think it is not a simple project to whip up a pico-ammeter connected to a field detector or magnetometer. I think if you actually study the processes involved in long-time buried metals, you will find that you need to devise some fairly sophisticated circuitry and perform precise calibrations in order to achieve any degree of reliability in detecting these anomalies. But first you will need to discover which phenomena actually show some measurable signals rather than to make a conclusion from the top of your head, without considering what methods the researchers used to find these signals.

If there was a simple method to locate buried metal at long range with good reliability, then the builders of Zahori would be bringing home amazing treasures and posting photos that make your eyes pop out. You would see tax agents parked outside their homes who follow them everywhere they go. The same is true for people who advertise LRLs that find amazing treasures from long distance. Do you see these LRL advertisers collecting amazing treasures from the ground, or do you see them trying to find money from the bank account of people who buy the detector?

If I was too lazy to research the details of how a metal detector works, I might tell you it is an interesting theory, but look at these reasons why it would not be possible to build a metal detector:
• No electromagnetic coil could make detect non-magnetic metals in the air or under the ground. It must be magnetic to respond to a magnetic field.
• An electromagnetic field must travel too far in the ground to detect buried metals, therefore it is unreliable.
• There are hundreds of magnetic interferences that will make any magnetic signal unreliable.
• The magnetic variations in the soil would interfere with any magnetic field that you try to transmit into the ground. therefore you have no idea what you are looking at under the ground

Sound familiar? These are the same kind of reasons you are giving for why a LRL cannot be developed. If I was ignorant enough to not understand how a metal detector works, and I did not want to read anything that explains metal detector circuits, then I might use these arguments to prevent myself from ever believing metal detection can work, or from trying to build a metal detector. The fact is some of these wrong arguments I posted have some truth in them. We find that there is a very sophisticated art to properly tuning a metal detector to overcome these problems. This is the same for the art of building a long range locator, except it is more difficult for a LRL because of the extremely small signals we are working with, and the combination of phenomena influencing the readings.

I have no interest in trying to prove to you that there are methods of locating buried metals at long range. My objective is to provide some real science involved with buried metals that can be demonstrated and proven by thousands of pages of research. This is the Geotech forum where the purpose is to share technical knowledge, not to spread misconceptions about how geotechnology works. It is not necessary that you believe me. I only hope that people who come here trying to learn the secrets of locating treasure will have some real science to use in their experimenting instead of relying on opinions that it is not possible to develop a LRL.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

That question is so ridiculous, and is asked over & over again to promote Carl's agenda of riducule and untruths.

My answer is still the same. NO! NO! NO!

My products cannot do as you or Carl, seem to expect of them, and cannot pass Carl's, stupid Gimmick Challenge test.

Exactly. Your products are not up to the challenge. So what's new?

You are playing the same old Skeptic Org. broken record.

Music to my ears!

I was informed with Randi, standing right beside me, that I only got 6 of the 8 tests he conducted correct. That is considered no better than chance guessing. Randi, said, more testing would have to be done before any conclusions could be reached.

I agree, and I have done years of Field testing with the present LRL configurations . I know the limitations, and have experienced the benefits.

As you've rightly stated - no better than chance.

Carl's challenge has no Scientific merit, and is meaningless when it is designed to be un-winnable by LRL except by rare chance luck. It is a sham, a publicity gimmick and you fall hook line & sinker for it, I know better. So, you can give up his bark up my tail and try to learn what real Science investigation is about from JP's example.

Scientific merit is a subject totally alien to yourself and most other LRL manufacturers.

Don't critize me, or my products. I do not lie, and The do as I claim they do. Just prove that you can build something less expensive, that works better than I am presently using and I will buy from you.

This is similar to the statement "When did you stop beating your wife?". It is based on an erroneous assumption.

Promoting Carl's, Skeptic mockery of others to cover up your own ignorance is a poor excuse for being closed minded to reality and the truth. Dell

Perhaps you should re-read your quote above and apply the "closed mind to reality and the truth" statement to your current mindset.

[Max]

That question is so ridiculous, and is asked over & over again to promote Carl's agenda of riducule and untruths.

My answer is still the same. NO! NO! NO!

My products cannot do as you or Carl, seem to expect of them, and cannot pass Carl's, stupid Gimmick Challenge test.

You are playing the same old Skeptic Org. broken record.

I was informed with Randi, standing right beside me, that I only got 6 of the 8 tests he conducted correct. That is considered no better than chance guessing. Randi, said, more testing would have to be done before any conclusions could be reached.

I agree, and I have done years of Field testing with the present LRL configurations . I know the limitations, and have experienced the benefits.

Carl's challenge has no Scientific merit, and is meaningless when it is designed to be un-winnable by LRL except by rare chance luck. It is a sham, a publicity gimmick and you fall hook line & sinker for it, I know better. So, you can give up his bark up my tail and try to learn what real Science investigation is about from JP's example.

Don't critize me, or my products. I do not lie, and The do as I claim they do. Just prove that you can build something less expensive, that works better than I am presently using and I will buy from you.

Promoting Carl's, Skeptic mockery of others to cover up your own ignorance is a poor excuse for being closed minded to reality and the truth. Dell

Hi Dell,
"My products cannot do as you or Carl, seem to expect of them, and cannot pass Carl's, stupid Gimmick Challenge test."

So , put in other words, you can't give any proof that your products work !

Nice... so in what they work ?
Please explain.

"Just prove that you can build something less expensive, that works better than I am presently using and I will buy from you. "

I never claimed I want to build one, or that I've already done or that could be done by me or "better" than "yours" (or vernel or whatever).
Just said e.g. that "even a monkey" could design e.g. a better POWER SUPPLY to avoid the battery waste in mineoro's PDC210.
Claims are yours and of other manifacturers/dealers about LRLs.

So proof that the stuff you sell work is up to you, my friend.

I'm not interested in your "tail" but in your claims (and of others) about LRLs.
For me you can continue as you want selling the stuff, it's not my problem.

"Promoting Carl's, Skeptic mockery of others to cover up your own ignorance is a poor excuse for being closed minded to reality and the truth. Dell"

Cover up of my ignorance ??? About what ???
Closed minded ???
Oh you refer at LRLs fantasies and story-telling ??? Maybe... but I'm improving my knowledge reading your posts...

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Consider the ground when you look for ways to build a working LRL

We have taken a look at the earth's atmosphere and it's electric charge that is generated by the sun. We know that there is an average of 2000 amps of current flowing between the earth and the atmosphere, about half in the form of lightning, and half leaking slowly through the air. In the fair weather skies, the electric field gradient follows the contour of the land. We see the high mountains have more current leaking in the atmosphere than neighboring areas of low elevation, because the mountains are closer to the source of charge, and have less distance for the current to travel. These mountains form a voltage gradient anomaly compared to uniform neighboring flat areas at sea level. We also see anomalies from other artificial objects on the ground such as tall buildings, electric and radio towers, and just about anything tall connected to the ground. These objects all create an anomaly in the current leakage through the air as well as an anomaly in the electric field gradient. But what about the ground? If we look beyond the obvious topographic anomalies, is all ground equal when it interacts with the atmospheric field and currents? Do we find a uniform ground that has no anomalies except for the contour changes?

Anomalies on the ground
We already know there are differences in ground resistivity because of different soil composition, as well as a large number of things that contaminate the surface in the area where it contacts the atmosphere. The soil conductivity can be expected to change as the ground water changes, as well as the variations in minerals and vegetation that is found at the surface. Most plants contain enough moisture to act as a conductor that is seen as ground potential by the 100v/meter electric charge in the air. Thus we might expect a tall tree to create a local variation in the electric field gradient, pushing it upward. We can also expect to find higher current flow through the tree, considering the amount of moisture and chemical activity in most plant leaves.

Plant anomalies below the ground
In addition to these anomalies expected on the surface of the ground, there are some fairly obvious anomalies just below the surface. The same tree we see 30 feet tall at the surface can have a root system an equal size below the surface. An examination of the roots will show they concentrate water and certain ions caused by chemical actions within the plant. So if there is a large root system in the soil, we would expect it to have water content that is usually more than the surrounding soil, as well as internal electrochemical activity. Depending on the shape of the root system this can have a number of measurable effects when surveying a plot of land. Consider also, many smaller plants grow in fields whereby the field is covered in a continuous root system that extends to a known depth, such as wild grass, and other heavy ground cover plants. These could have a tendency to mask some of the larger plant root systems, depending on the method of measurement. Also consider certain plants in relatively dry soil can send out roots that extend horizontally for miles. These can be thought of as conductors buried in the less conductive soil. We also usually find microbal chemical action around the roots of plants. It seems the existence of plants is enough to complicate the detection of any ions in the ground from long-time buried metals. But there is a lot more going on beneath the ground.

Geological anomalies below the ground
There are sub-surface geological features well known to geologists caused by long time movements in the earth's crust including fractures, faults, cuts, folds and other features where the rock composition changes drastically. Along with the changes in rock structure, we find changes in resistivity and other measurable properties. But we also see underground water flows that follow some of these transition areas such as fractures and faults. This is where we can expect larger variations in conductivity below the surface.

Telluric currents
One interesting phenomenon below the surface is a current flow that is generated in the earth's crust and mantle by changes in the earth's magnetic field. These currents are called telluric currents. They are generated by interactions between the solar wind and the magnetosphere, or solar radiation effects on the ionosphere. These telluric current flows also happen when lightning discharges at the earth's surface. These telluric currents flow from the magnetic poles to the equator in daylight parts of the globe, while moving in the opposite direction at the dark parts of the globe. The amount of current flowing at any one time is enough to power telegraphs that were used in the USA begining in 1859. These were later abandoned for batteries in order to obtain a constant power source. Telluric currents vary between 0.2 to 1000 volts/meter. The estimated current in a hemisphere during 12 hours is 100 to 1000 amps.

These telluric currents create corrosion problems for pipelines, which are now protected by cathodic protection circuitry. Both the telluric and magnetotelluric methods are useful to industrial prospectors who use them for exploring the structure beneath the Earth's surface. These are popular methods for exploration of geothermal fields, petroleum reservoirs, fault zones, ground water, conductive ore bodies, magma chambers, and plate tectonic boundaries.

Magnetotellucics
In magnetotellurics, the Earth's naturally varying electric and magnetic fields are measured over a wide range of frequencies (1/10,000 to 10,000 Hz). While the low frequencies are caused by solar wind and ionosphere charging, worldwide thunderstorm activity causes magnetic fields at frequencies above 1 Hz. These natural phenomena create strong magnetotelluric source signals over the entire frequency spectrum.

The ratio of the electric field to magnetic field can give simple information about the subsurface conductivity. Because of the skin effect phenomenon that affects electromagnetic fields, the ratio at higher frequency ranges gives information on the shallow Earth, whereas deeper information is provided by the low-frequency range. The ratio is usually represented as magnetotelluric-apparent resistivity and phase as a function of frequency. With recent advances in instrumentation, processing and modeling, magnetotellurics is now considered one of the most important tools in deep Earth research.

But how can this help a treasure hunter?
Can magnetotelluric measurements help a treasure hunter? It probably could if the treasure hunter was also a geologist who knew how to interpret a survey and determine what false signals to ignore. But most treasure hunters are not geologists. When we think of ways this technology would apply to treasure hunting, it has more to do with the telluric/magnetotelluric interactions with other phenomena occurring at the surface. For example, consider a large area of land with a telluric voltage trying to move toward the equator and has a fracture in the bedrock below the surface. Let's assume some amount of ground water is in the fracture that contains dissolved ions from local minerals, and is considered a relatively good conductor compared to the rock strata for miles around. We can expect a very large flow of telluric current in this fracture filled with water, compared to the surrounding dry rock strata. This can be expected to show some weak electric consequences at the surface. More important is the influence from worldwide thunderstorms that can cause some measurable frequeny components that reach the surface and are easily measured by geologists. These same radiated frequencies are measurable at the surface by non-geologists. Do they propogate into the air? Are these signals able to be picked up with sensing coils or antennas? More importantly, can these signals have an influence on existing radio signals that are broadcast in the air in the nearby vicinity so someone with a receiver can detect the magnetotelluric signal influencing his reception of the broadcast signal?

Now we know what happens when these underground currents find areas of highly conductive soil or underground water. And what happens when these currents find underground root systems? Do you suppose the currents might flow through the roots more easily than the surrounding soil? Could this cause a false reading to someone who didn't know to compensate for the underground water and plants?

And what happens when these currents travel laterally across a tall column of soil that has a trace of metal ions dissolved in it? Do you suppose you would find an anomaly measurable at the surface as well as some dynamic activity with the ions below?

Is this all there is?
These are only a few of the things we should consider when looking under the ground for physical phenomena that can help or hinder the development of an electronic LRL. There are some other interesting subterranean observations that are beyond the scope of the telluric currents and anomalies, but these will have to wait for another time.

Best wishes,
J_P

[gold24h]

Mining companys have proven ways to locate ore at distances,but i do not beleive the same devices would work on a small treasure or handfull of coins.The pistel like locaters that we have seen pictures of in posts on this site from the 1980's,i beleive work,how good who knows.I beleive they transmit a signal and receive a different signal,but what do they transmit and what do they receive,if we new those two we could build one,we know part of the units use BFO occilater,does anybody know what it transmits and receives?

[Seden]

Another job well done J Player

Man I'm going to have to print out and save the two excellent treatises you've done lately,that's ALOT of work. And in both you've made some valid points and observations that Max,myself and others can put to use.

Since audio spectrum analyzer software is available for free, the next step would be to bury a non-ferrous object in between 2 ground rods and with some experimenting come up with a low noise amp with the right kind of signal processing to be able to discern the presence of the metallic object. Then once that is accomplished move on to using a resonant or non-resonant coil antenna and repeat the above experiment and go from there. The trick is going to be in coming up with the best signal processing for the noise.

Randy

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,

If you want to do some experimenting with earth resistivity without spending a fortune, here is a link that shows some simple testing equipment you can whip up: http://www.liv.ac.uk/Geomagnetism/schools/res.htm

The methods shown could also be used to experiment with induced polarization after some modifications. Also, the electronics to measure telluric frequencies and their phase shifts is a little more complicated, but probably nothing you can't handle.

If you want a hint about some of the ongoing experimentation described in this forum, I would also suggest looking into some of the old "tuned radio frequency" receivers that were used years ago, as well as the BFO metal detectors. The working hand-held LRLs are not measuring only anomalies from the soil, they are attempting to find special anomalies that cause a pair of coils to deviate from resonance. If you recall, resonant circuits are generally much more sensitive than off-resonant, but much harder to keep stable. The very principles that cause the instability will allow smaller anomalies to be sensed.

Keep in mind also that to sense an anomaly is only the first of 3 stages. After finding a way to locate anomalies, you must learn to identify buried metal anomalies as opposed to anomalies from other causes. After locating buried metals, the final task is to discriminate which metal. The methods to accomplish these are all contained within the geophysics of buried metals and the physical phenomena that surround these metals. You may need to use more than simple radio signal strength detection in order to arrive at the final objective of true long range locating. My opinion is there are some techniques of locating much more efficient than those that have been described in this forum so far.

It's nice to hear you like to read what I posted. I have been compiling some of my posts along with a number of others made by esteban and others into a html file that preserves all the information and pictures, but without the argumentative posts in between. When I finish this series of discussions, I will post the full html document in a zip file to download for those who are interested.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Consider the ground when you look for ways to build a working LRL

We have taken a look at the earth's atmosphere and it's electric charge that is generated by the sun. We know that there is an average of 2000 amps of current flowing between the earth and the atmosphere, about half in the form of lightning, and half leaking slowly through the air. In the fair weather skies, the electric field gradient follows the contour of the land. We see the high mountains have more current leaking in the atmosphere than neighboring areas of low elevation, because the mountains are closer to the source of charge, and have less distance for the current to travel. These mountains form a voltage gradient anomaly compared to uniform neighboring flat areas at sea level. We also see anomalies from other artificial objects on the ground such as tall buildings, electric and radio towers, and just about anything tall connected to the ground. These objects all create an anomaly in the current leakage through the air as well as an anomaly in the electric field gradient. But what about the ground? If we look beyond the obvious topographic anomalies, is all ground equal when it interacts with the atmospheric field and currents? Do we find a uniform ground that has no anomalies except for the contour changes?

Anomalies on the ground
We already know there are differences in ground resistivity because of different soil composition, as well as a large number of things that contaminate the surface in the area where it contacts the atmosphere. The soil conductivity can be expected to change as the ground water changes, as well as the variations in minerals and vegetation that is found at the surface. Most plants contain enough moisture to act as a conductor that is seen as ground potential by the 100v/meter electric charge in the air. Thus we might expect a tall tree to create a local variation in the electric field gradient, pushing it upward. We can also expect to find higher current flow through the tree, considering the amount of moisture and chemical activity in most plant leaves.

Plant anomalies below the ground
In addition to these anomalies expected on the surface of the ground, there are some fairly obvious anomalies just below the surface. The same tree we see 30 feet tall at the surface can have a root system an equal size below the surface. An examination of the roots will show they concentrate water and certain ions caused by chemical actions within the plant. So if there is a large root system in the soil, we would expect it to have water content that is usually more than the surrounding soil, as well as internal electrochemical activity. Depending on the shape of the root system this can have a number of measurable effects when surveying a plot of land. Consider also, many smaller plants grow in fields whereby the field is covered in a continuous root system that extends to a known depth, such as wild grass, and other heavy ground cover plants. These could have a tendency to mask some of the larger plant root systems, depending on the method of measurement. Also consider certain plants in relatively dry soil can send out roots that extend horizontally for miles. These can be thought of as conductors buried in the less conductive soil. We also usually find microbal chemical action around the roots of plants. It seems the existence of plants is enough to complicate the detection of any ions in the ground from long-time buried metals. But there is a lot more going on beneath the ground.

Geological anomalies below the ground
There are sub-surface geological features well known to geologists caused by long time movements in the earth's crust including fractures, faults, cuts, folds and other features where the rock composition changes drastically. Along with the changes in rock structure, we find changes in resistivity and other measurable properties. But we also see underground water flows that follow some of these transition areas such as fractures and faults. This is where we can expect larger variations in conductivity below the surface.

Telluric currents
One interesting phenomenon below the surface is a current flow that is generated in the earth's crust and mantle by changes in the earth's magnetic field. These currents are called telluric currents. They are generated by interactions between the solar wind and the magnetosphere, or solar radiation effects on the ionosphere. These telluric current flows also happen when lightning discharges at the earth's surface. These telluric currents flow from the magnetic poles to the equator in daylight parts of the globe, while moving in the opposite direction at the dark parts of the globe. The amount of current flowing at any one time is enough to power telegraphs that were used in the USA begining in 1859. These were later abandoned for batteries in order to obtain a constant power source. Telluric currents vary between 0.2 to 1000 volts/meter. The estimated current in a hemisphere during 12 hours is 100 to 1000 amps.

These telluric currents create corrosion problems for pipelines, which are now protected by cathodic protection circuitry. Both the telluric and magnetotelluric methods are useful to industrial prospectors who use them for exploring the structure beneath the Earth's surface. These are popular methods for exploration of geothermal fields, petroleum reservoirs, fault zones, ground water, conductive ore bodies, magma chambers, and plate tectonic boundaries.

Magnetotellucics
In magnetotellurics, the Earth's naturally varying electric and magnetic fields are measured over a wide range of frequencies (1/10,000 to 10,000 Hz). While the low frequencies are caused by solar wind and ionosphere charging, worldwide thunderstorm activity causes magnetic fields at frequencies above 1 Hz. These natural phenomena create strong magnetotelluric source signals over the entire frequency spectrum.

The ratio of the electric field to magnetic field can give simple information about the subsurface conductivity. Because of the skin effect phenomenon that affects electromagnetic fields, the ratio at higher frequency ranges gives information on the shallow Earth, whereas deeper information is provided by the low-frequency range. The ratio is usually represented as magnetotelluric-apparent resistivity and phase as a function of frequency. With recent advances in instrumentation, processing and modeling, magnetotellurics is now considered one of the most important tools in deep Earth research.

But how can this help a treasure hunter?
Can magnetotelluric measurements help a treasure hunter? It probably could if the treasure hunter was also a geologist who knew how to interpret a survey and determine what false signals to ignore. But most treasure hunters are not geologists. When we think of ways this technology would apply to treasure hunting, it has more to do with the telluric/magnetotelluric interactions with other phenomena occurring at the surface. For example, consider a large area of land with a telluric voltage trying to move toward the equator and has a fracture in the bedrock below the surface. Let's assume some amount of ground water is in the fracture that contains dissolved ions from local minerals, and is considered a relatively good conductor compared to the rock strata for miles around. We can expect a very large flow of telluric current in this fracture filled with water, compared to the surrounding dry rock strata. This can be expected to show some weak electric consequences at the surface. More important is the influence from worldwide thunderstorms that can cause some measurable frequeny components that reach the surface and are easily measured by geologists. These same radiated frequencies are measurable at the surface by non-geologists. Do they propogate into the air? Are these signals able to be picked up with sensing coils or antennas? More importantly, can these signals have an influence on existing radio signals that are broadcast in the air in the nearby vicinity so someone with a receiver can detect the magnetotelluric signal influencing his reception of the broadcast signal?

Now we know what happens when these underground currents find areas of highly conductive soil or underground water. And what happens when these currents find underground root systems? Do you suppose the currents might flow through the roots more easily than the surrounding soil? Could this cause a false reading to someone who didn't know to compensate for the underground water and plants?

And what happens when these currents travel laterally across a tall column of soil that has a trace of metal ions dissolved in it? Do you suppose you would find an anomaly measurable at the surface as well as some dynamic activity with the ions below?

Is this all there is?
These are only a few of the things we should consider when looking under the ground for physical phenomena that can help or hinder the development of an electronic LRL. There are some other interesting subterranean observations that are beyond the scope of the telluric currents and anomalies, but these will have to wait for another time.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi JP,
read all your "treatise on natural philosophy"...
yes these are scientific arguments. Fine.

It's the question that makes me crazy...

But how can this help a treasure hunter?

That's the problem... even thousands billions of neutrinos pass the Earth at any second... BUT THEN ?

I can find many other "sources" like these... AND THEN ?

Can't see any useful way in what you exposed to realize an electronic TH LRL.

Telluric currents ???

Yes they are... smaller and smaller amounts of electrons flowing that way...
AND SO ?

How e.g. neutrinos or telluric currents can show you where the gold is... ???

That's the point.

You miss the most important part. Explain us wich kind of interactions from these facts to e.g. a gold item could be... then the way of detectiong it by a remote electronic device.

That's the real question... which one of this of above you would use to electronically detect gold from remote ?

Otherwise is just another LRL BLA BLA BLA... that give us nothing more than what we can read on some geology magazine... sitting in the bathroom.

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

Again, the answer to the question that makes you crazy... "But how can this help a treasure hunter?" can only be found by reading the answers. In order to know the answer in full detail, you must read how the average geologist uses his instrument to measure the telluric currents and magnetotelluric currents. Then also read to lean how he looks at the data he finds and is able to locate underground faults, water and ore deposits. A good place to start is to type in google: magnetotelluric gold. If you don't have time to read these things, then this information will never do you any good, and there is no point in your further reading or making posts about what I write.

When it comes to treasure hunting, there are several prerequisites that must be satisfied before you can hope to gain any benefit from knowing the principles of earth science that I have talked about. some of the more important prerequisites are:

1. You must possess an intellect sufficient to grasp the implications of the physical phenomena that you read about, and how they may work together in order to produce measurable signals.

2. You must possess a comprehension of the English language sufficient to understand any subtle meanings that may be found in the text.

3. You must make a decision to try to learn the answers by taking the information at hand and connecting the different principles together to form some useful conclusions. Keep in mind, there are more principles involved than the ones I talk about.

Then proceed to collect more details that I have not talked about to complete your understanding of what might work. Without making the decision to try to learn, you will be left only with the decision to give up and try to make stupid jokes. While this choice is not all bad, it has the effect of causing others to view you as a stupid person. You wouldn't want that, would you? After all, you can't be stupid if you can build metal detector circuits, and even modify them to work better than the manufacturer designed it, right?

You can continue your stupid laughter about telluric currents not capable of locating gold, or you can read some real reports where geologists explain how they locate gold using magnetotelluric methods. I don't rally care, cause it's not my job to drag you in front of pages that shows you the answers and force you to learn things you do not want to know. The cost of knowledge is education. You can educate yourself or remain ignorant. This is your choice, not mine.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,

Again, the answer to the question that makes you crazy... "But how can this help a treasure hunter?" can only be found by reading the answers. In order to know the answer in full detail, you must read how the average geologist uses his instrument to measure the telluric currents and magnetotelluric currents. Then also read to lean how he looks at the data he finds and is able to locate underground faults, water and ore deposits. A good place to start is to type in google: magnetotelluric gold. If you don't have time to read these things, then this information will never do you any good, and there is no point in your further reading or making posts about what I write.

When it comes to treasure hunting, there are several prerequisites that must be satisfied before you can hope to gain any benefit from knowing the principles of earth science that I have talked about. some of the more important prerequisites are:

1. You must possess an intellect sufficient to grasp the implications of the physical phenomena that you read about, and how they may work together in order to produce measurable signals.

2. You must possess a comprehension of the English language sufficient to understand any subtle meanings that may be found in the text.

3. You must make a decision to try to learn the answers by taking the information at hand and connecting the different principles together to form some useful conclusions. Keep in mind, there are more principles involved than the ones I talk about.

Then proceed to collect more details that I have not talked about to complete your understanding of what might work. Without making the decision to try to learn, you will be left only with the decision to give up and try to make stupid jokes. While this choice is not all bad, it has the effect of causing others to view you as a stupid person. You wouldn't want that, would you? After all, you can't be stupid if you can build metal detector circuits, and even modify them to work better than the manufacturer designed it, right?

You can continue your stupid laughter about telluric currents not capable of locating gold, or you can read some real reports where geologists explain how they locate gold using magnetotelluric methods. I don't rally care, cause it's not my job to drag you in front of pages that shows you the answers and force you to learn things you do not want to know. The cost of knowledge is education. You can educate yourself or remain ignorant. This is your choice, not mine.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
only thing that I understand from your "papers" is that you think possible detecting e.g. gold items with a just electronic LRL... but don't say HOW!

You talk of telluric currents and other things... that could interest a geologist but don't tell me or us... how you realized your LRL. So what principle of operation (or principles if more than one) is.
That's all.

Anyone, even with a middle understanding of english and some hi-school education, can post exactly what you posted here.
Find on google "magnetotelluric gold".

So what do you offer more than e.g. Esteban ?

To me, nothing.

You cannot prove anything.

Are you looking for a petroleum reservoir ??? If so your "theories" are fine.
There are already applications of that.

Are you looking for a gold treasure ? If so your "theories" mean nothing, like Esteban's burned schematics.

That's your problem.

Kind regards,
Max