Post photo of your LRL project?

[mosha]

Mineoro FR

Esteban, what FR used in mineoro devices. Regards.

[roberts]

J Player...ehm! Hah!? Now when i read Estebans last post, including your demands...hah,hah,hah!!!
Not possible! As far as i know, it is not possible to put transmitter and receiver in same box, working at the same time, at same frequency,and make receiver to cancel Tx signal, while at the same time expecting to receive echoed signal!?!? Not possible at all! That should be SF!
Not possible!
When starting this posting i had other thing on my mind - only the receiver, without any transmitter included in design. Now you and Esteban cleared up everything to me.
Esteban, what have you just posted is not possible! Think twice.
No matter how weak is transmitter, it will always oversaturate receiver with coil setup you described.
If you put coils separate in oposite planes...than nothing new will happen. You'll get good old 2 box!
If you put coils to overlap and balance - good old VLF IB...
But having 2 coils togather,nod coupled well will always lead to same situation - saturation, and possible destroying rx front end.
I really dont have a clue what really do you want? You want to detect coin at 40 meters distance (or whatever) but you dont have clear concept how to do that.
Esteban you are talking about so many frequencies...? Where,why,who,which,what for,how? Alonso told me that..Alonso told me this...Very confusing stories here.
For a moment, just for a moment i wanted to see if there is any sanity backup in all those stories...now i see. Not.
Sorry. I will repeat my attitude upon this again. This time i will be more polite than in the past. Do not feel offended, it is not my intention to offend anybody of you, but....all those stories abut "radio" tx,rx LRL, locating items at 3-4..up to 40 meters..nothing but fairy tales.Totaly empty stories.Kids plays. Esteban you are wasting your time playing with scap electronics, not only that - you are wasting everybody's else time here posting misty stories about some "secret" devices,radio tx's,rx's...God only knows what else!?
Huge waste of time! Bogus,fakes,toys.
I will not post here again any comment.
I will did what i said.If you give me loop specifications i will design complete receiver and post here. But i will not take a part here any more in this blur and misty stories and theories about impossible things.
I do beleive that you done a lot of different experiments. Also i do see now that you are absolutelly not awared at all what have you done so far. You are interpreting your experiences totally wrong. Doing that you are confusing yourself more and more. Like i said in the past; you are deeply lost in your uncontrolled and unawared experiments, totally confused.
It seems you learned many things in electronic on totally wrong way. It is very bad for you.You lost so many time.
I see that you are straightforward in your claims and posts.It is sad to see that you actually beleive in all you posted here.
Now i feel ashamed and sorry cose argued so much in the past, with you.
I should find some better way to help you.
First i suggest you to return to basics in electronic. Skip advanced stuff. Find somwhere on the internet some basics in radio. Read and learn. Try to understand. Everything what you cant understand, be free to ask here. I will be glad to explain to you, concerning radio.
Now i am off.

[Fred]

Hi

Not possible! As far as i know, it is not possible to put transmitter and receiver in same box, working at the same time, at same frequency,and make receiver to cancel Tx signal, while at the same time expecting to receive echoed signal..

Why not?
To cancel (null) as well of possible RX signal from TX, then to measure only fluctuations and phase differences from that relative "0" signal should be possible.
Of course RX cannot completely cancel TX signal,it may be not absolutely necessary?.
Fred

[J_Player]

J Player...ehm! Hah!? Now when i read Estebans last post, including your demands...hah,hah,hah!!!
Not possible! As far as i know, it is not possible to put transmitter and receiver in same box, working at the same time, at same frequency,and make receiver to cancel Tx signal, while at the same time expecting to receive echoed signal!?!? Not possible at all! That should be SF!
Not possible!

Hi Robert,
Thank you for the answer. I guess it is not possible to design a VLF radio transmitter and receiver both operating in the same box that will allow the receiver to pick up a signal.

Well, at least this saved me many feet of coil wire.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Roberts

Don't understand your point! When I explain about coil and frequency, do you read well? Since I know, an of resonance detector is himself transmitter and receiver at same time! Or the BFO! Simple! Or cascode oscillator!

You need to go out of your castle for to see other things. This is the skeptical terrain.

You can explain me tons of theories and try suggest me I need learn about basic electronic. Yes, I need learn electronic very much, but I'm talking about reality, my own experience in this terrain.

No wasting time since I know what I'm talking.

Maybe wasting time trying to explain what I know.

Regards

Esteban

[J_Player]

I really dont have a clue what really do you want? You want to detect coin at 40 meters distance (or whatever) but you dont have clear concept how to do that.

I do not want to build a LRL for the purpose of hunting for coins. I want to build a detector similar to Esteban style coil detectors so I can make independent tests to see if it responds to actual buried metals like he says it does.

What I am looking for is a detector like Esteban uses except built using calculations rather than simple experimenting with old radio circuit boards. From what you said, it is not possible to build a detector similar to Esteban's coil transmitters and operate a receiver at the same time. I do not know how he managed to run a coil transmitter without smoking his receiver, but he says he did. From this I must conclude the only possible way to construct one of these is by using the method Esteban uses.

However, that is impossible too, because Esteban has never posted a complete schematic with coil details that would permit building the style coil detectors he uses. I guess this means nobody will ever make any independent tests to see if his detectors work. The closest we have seen is Morgan's report of a detector made by Alonso, But Mogan's report was only for a few examples of what he saw. not the kind of testing to show what electrical signals were in the circuitry when it made beeping noise.

So we will continue with no information of how to test the reports of detecting buried metals at long range because it is said to be impossible.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

I do not know how he managed to run a coil transmitter without smoking his receiver, but he says he did. J_P

This is absolutely not an issue.In practice everyone can transmit and receive at the same time with any transceiver witout smoking anything.Any full duplex radio will do that , even in same band and with non-nulled antennas.And Robert knows it if he build cordless phones.Overloading maybe a problem, but problems doesnt exists, only solutions.

And i certainly hope Robert will participate ,as JP and Esteban says, to associate theory to practical observations.Only this way a project can really be improved.
But we need here to keep an OPEN MIND !!!!
regards,
Fred.

[roberts]

You must distinguish "duplex" from single frequency we are talking about here. Cordless phones usually do have huge difference in frequencies between base unit and mobile unit.
In some older models differences are more than 10MHz. Same thing with communication tranceivers.Most popular VHF(2m 144-146MHZ) is best example. In simplex once you press TX knob, RX circuitry switching OFF, so only transmitting is going ON. In repeaters mode, there is 600kHz difference between TX and RX frequency...etc.etc...even than RX is switched OFF, due strong EM field generated arround antena, which can easily burn RX front end.
OK if you want to use same freq. in this purpose, only way i can imagine it is to use pretty fast multiplexer. This will end with pretty complex design but totally trivial. So again, without to offend somebodys feelings, i guarantee there is no way that Esteban's device works in manner he described.No way.
If something he experienced for real, i do beleive he did, than he didnt find proper way to explain that here. Either he do not know how to explain, either he do not want to explain. It is not my job to analyze his thoughts and intentions, i can only comment his posts here.

[J_Player]

OK if you want to use same freq. in this purpose, only way i can imagine it is to use pretty fast multiplexer. This will end with pretty complex design but totally trivial. So again, without to offend somebodys feelings, i guarantee there is no way that Esteban's device works in manner he described.No way.

Hi Robert,
The way Esteban described did not use a multiplexer at all. It used a transmitter and a receiver both with a coil antenna tuned to oscillate at the same frequency. When I look at the amount of wire that you say must be used to receive signals from a loop in the 455 Khz range, I wonder how the AM and SW bands are able to operate with wire loops of much smaller length wire. I see some of these radios using ferrite loops the size of your finger. Others use air core loops that fit on the back plane of the radio enclosure box, and have less than 30 feet of wire in them.

I have seen examples of mobile radio receivers tuned to the same frequency as transmitter, and can operate with the receiving antenna touching the transmitter antenna without causing any damage to the receiver. One example is my cordless phone. When I hold the receiving antenna against the transmitting base antenna I hear the demodulated sound as perfectly as if the receiver is 30 feet away from the transmitter. There has never been any damage to the hand held receiver from holding the antenna against the transmitting antenna. I imagine if I were to put the mobile phone transmitter and receiver into the same box, the receiver will still work as well as it does when removed from the box. Now, if the cordless phone was modified to work with a low frequency, and using a coil antenna, I believe the coil antennas could be easily made to fit in the same cordless phone enclosures, and would still operate without destroying the receiver when touching the TX and RX coils together.

Is it possible Esteban used the same method as a cordless phone uses to avoid destroying the receiver of his LRL detectors when the transmitter and receiver are in the same box? Is it possible that Esteban discovered a method of receiving radio waves with much smaller wire lengths than you specify, that is only known to radio receiver manufacturers and Esteban, but not you?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

You must distinguish "duplex" from single frequency we are talking about here. Cordless phones usually do have huge difference in frequencies between base unit and mobile unit.
In some older models differences are more than 10MHz. Same thing with communication tranceivers.Most popular VHF(2m 144-146MHZ) is best example. In simplex once you press TX knob, RX circuitry switching OFF, so only transmitting is going ON. In repeaters mode, there is 600kHz difference between TX and RX frequency...etc.etc...even than RX is switched OFF, due strong EM field generated arround antena, which can easily burn RX front end.
OK if you want to use same freq. in this purpose, only way i can imagine it is to use pretty fast multiplexer. This will end with pretty complex design but totally trivial. So again, without to offend somebodys feelings, i guarantee there is no way that Esteban's device works in manner he described.No way.
If something he experienced for real, i do beleive he did, than he didnt find proper way to explain that here. Either he do not know how to explain, either he do not want to explain. It is not my job to analyze his thoughts and intentions, i can only comment his posts here.

Hi Robert,
even if I still think that 40meters for a coin is little hard to belive... I think that maybe Esteban noticed something unusual about radio signals we maybe ignore or don't even think about much when talking about that stuff.

The means of detecting long or short waves or medium etc with small antennas is well known from at least 1century: use a tuned circuit... you'll increase Q and you'll gain selectivity ... for example using a ferrite rod on coil... then you'll get also directivity that way.

Actually most of radio equipments works like above: have inside smaller coils or antennas than required for 1/2 or 1/4 wavelenght... that's totally impossible to implement in small e.g. portable radios etc but also for most base stations... did you ever seen any 20Km wire/dipole antenna? maybe you just read about.... as many others here.

Now cleared this point , infact really obvious thing you can see in any AM/broadcast portable radio receiver... we can talk about the things we saw in posts and Esteban told us.

OK, tx and rx tuned on same frequency ? Where's the problem ? Nexus, Saxon, Anker and many others vlf/ib detectors use exactly that approach... or am I wrong ?

Rx saturation ? Why ? much depends on gain, nulling etc it's not automatic result that Rx stage will saturate always and easy just cause of coils disposition and factors you explained... Nexus is again a good example: one hundred and more volts peak to peak at tx and rx is stable... detector find stuff etc etc etc
Does Nexus violate any physics law ?
Why resonance is a problem ...? I cannot understand this.

Could all this be used to detect a coin at 40meters? I think not. But , who knows... also before Wright's flight many excelent engineers and designers etc told to the World that was impossible to happen! Then it happened and they lose their bets and money!

You know... I'm not Esteban's supporter here... or Alonso supporter... or anyone else supporter... and think many stuff around LRLs is totally fake...I repeated here so many times... but resonace, for me, is not the problem...

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

I use only receiver part, because when occurs the detection the background noise is little up (maybe the hear can't catch, but the audio generator convert the difference in beeps).

But off course, you can use transmitter as receiver catching microvariations occurs in transmission beam. This is other way for to see the film. Can appears extrange, but is part of the experience.

I understand what happens with many of us: wish to dress with all the possible theories and later start to work in it. If you can't find the theory wich support it, find you it in the field.

Regards

Esteban

[Qiaozhi]

I use only receiver part, because when occurs the detection the background noise is little up (maybe the hear can't catch, but the audio generator convert the difference in beeps).

But off course, you can use transmitter as receiver catching microvariations occurs in transmission beam. This is other way for to see the film. Can appears extrange, but is part of the experience.

I understand what happens with many of us: wish to dress with all the possible theories and later start to work in it. If you can't find the theory wich support it, find you it in the field.

Regards

Esteban

Hi Esteban,

You always tease us with your block diagrams.
What is in the "gold classifier"?

[roberts]

Hi Robert,
The way Esteban described did not use a multiplexer at all. It used a transmitter and a receiver both with a coil antenna tuned to oscillate at the same frequency. When I look at the amount of wire that you say must be used to receive signals from a loop in the 455 Khz range, I wonder how the AM and SW bands are able to operate with wire loops of much smaller length wire. I see some of these radios using ferrite loops the size of your finger. Others use air core loops that fit on the back plane of the radio enclosure box, and have less than 30 feet of wire in them.

I have seen examples of mobile radio receivers tuned to the same frequency as transmitter, and can operate with the receiving antenna touching the transmitter antenna without causing any damage to the receiver. One example is my cordless phone. When I hold the receiving antenna against the transmitting base antenna I hear the demodulated sound as perfectly as if the receiver is 30 feet away from the transmitter. There has never been any damage to the hand held receiver from holding the antenna against the transmitting antenna. I imagine if I were to put the mobile phone transmitter and receiver into the same box, the receiver will still work as well as it does when removed from the box. Now, if the cordless phone was modified to work with a low frequency, and using a coil antenna, I believe the coil antennas could be easily made to fit in the same cordless phone enclosures, and would still operate without destroying the receiver when touching the TX and RX coils together.

Is it possible Esteban used the same method as a cordless phone uses to avoid destroying the receiver of his LRL detectors when the transmitter and receiver are in the same box? Is it possible that Esteban discovered a method of receiving radio waves with much smaller wire lengths than you specify, that is only known to radio receiver manufacturers and Esteban, but not you?

Best wishes,
J_P

J Player, it seems that you dont read my post at all.Or you just took skim look on few lines and than not trying to understand my point!?
I just explained situation at cordless phones!? Didnt I???
Base and mobile unit DOES NOT operate at same frequency at all! Difference in those is H U G E ! Read this; H U G E !!! At old 30-59Mhz phones diffrences were 10-15 MHZ ! Read again 10-15MHz ! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME NOW?
In newer cordless phones (900-1800MHZ) differences ARE EVEN BIGGER!
MUCH BIGGER! I have to write capitals here just to attract your attention to read and understand this.
You are talking about small ferrite rod antennas for AM 500-1600kHz...
Ha,ha,ha,ha!!!! Have you ever heard of "electonic lenght"? Have you ever heard that term? Seriouslly i have doubts!
Well, that small ferrite rod antena has "electronic" lenght od W/4 or W/2 and in few rare cases even W - full lenght. But usually selectivity in that case is not that great. That was the price had to be payed making small portable, handy, COMERCIAL AM recivers..
So...i will repeat words i told in last post to Esteban. People i am really tired and exhausted from every day job to come here and teach you basics and fundamentals.It is not that i dont have good will...i am just to tired.
Please read some basics about radio before come here and talk nonsences.

[Esteban]

J Player, it seems that you dont read my post at all.Or you just took skim look on few lines and than not trying to understand my point!?
I just explained situation at cordless phones!? Didnt I???
Base and mobile unit DOES NOT operate at same frequency at all! Difference in those is H U G E ! Read this; H U G E !!! At old 30-59Mhz phones diffrences were 10-15 MHZ ! Read again 10-15MHz ! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME NOW?
In newer cordless phones (900-1800MHZ) differences ARE EVEN BIGGER!
MUCH BIGGER! I have to write capitals here just to attract your attention to read and understand this.
You are talking about small ferrite rod antennas for AM 500-1600kHz...
Ha,ha,ha,ha!!!! Have you ever heard of "electonic lenght"? Have you ever heard that term? Seriouslly i have doubts!
Well, that small ferrite rod antena has "electronic" lenght od W/4 or W/2 and in few rare cases even W - full lenght. But usually selectivity in that case is not that great. That was the price had to be payed making small portable, handy, COMERCIAL AM recivers..
So...i will repeat words i told in last post to Esteban. People i am really tired and exhausted from every day job to come here and teach you basics and fundamentals.It is not that i dont have good will...i am just to tired.
Please read some basics about radio before come here and talk nonsences.

The problem is you wish to explain from your radioafiction hobby, and not about possibilities. Your experience is regarding talking with radio, no building it, maybe you don't touch the solder iron as many theorics... Put the limits yourself, leave other investigate in real field, not from a chair and computer only...

Regards

Esteban

[roberts]

Hi Robert,
even if I still think that 40meters for a coin is little hard to belive... I think that maybe Esteban noticed something unusual about radio signals we maybe ignore or don't even think about much when talking about that stuff.

The means of detecting long or short waves or medium etc with small antennas is well known from at least 1century: use a tuned circuit... you'll increase Q and you'll gain selectivity ... for example using a ferrite rod on coil... then you'll get also directivity that way.

Actually most of radio equipments works like above: have inside smaller coils or antennas than required for 1/2 or 1/4 wavelenght... that's totally impossible to implement in small e.g. portable radios etc but also for most base stations... did you ever seen any 20Km wire/dipole antenna? maybe you just read about.... as many others here.

Now cleared this point , infact really obvious thing you can see in any AM/broadcast portable radio receiver... we can talk about the things we saw in posts and Esteban told us.

OK, tx and rx tuned on same frequency ? Where's the problem ? Nexus, Saxon, Anker and many others vlf/ib detectors use exactly that approach... or am I wrong ?

Rx saturation ? Why ? much depends on gain, nulling etc it's not automatic result that Rx stage will saturate always and easy just cause of coils disposition and factors you explained... Nexus is again a good example: one hundred and more volts peak to peak at tx and rx is stable... detector find stuff etc etc etc
Does Nexus violate any physics law ?
Why resonance is a problem ...? I cannot understand this.

Could all this be used to detect a coin at 40meters? I think not. But , who knows... also before Wright's flight many excelent engineers and designers etc told to the World that was impossible to happen! Then it happened and they lose their bets and money!

You know... I'm not Esteban's supporter here... or Alonso supporter... or anyone else supporter... and think many stuff around LRLs is totally fake...I repeated here so many times... but resonace, for me, is not the problem...

Kind regards,
Max

Although i respect you much more than others (ivconics credits upon you) i have to admit that now even you disapointed me!? It seems that you also didnt read my posts carefully and didnt understand it?
"Nexus,Saxon,Anker..."?? What are you comparing here? Those machines are using balanced coils, man! Balanced! TX and RX coils are balnced in manner that only minor induction occurs in RX part without metal in its vicinity.Thats why RX front end is not in full saturation, thats why any detection is possible. Ask Quiaozhi here about making coils for Nexus!? Most difficult and most tricky part of all...in Nexus designing.
What the heck this got to do with subject here? As i understood, subject is Estebans device, sort of hybrid between radio and md...or something simillar. I dont even have a proper name for it?
J Player gave here rough picture about what he is interesting to make. Ok ...
J Player you can use cordless phone (or only some parts from it) but it will still run on different frequencies! If you mod it and achieve to TX and RX do run on same frequencies than you'll get full saturation of RX and possible damage of front end.
I guess you mixed that RX part with some ordinary wide band radio? Am i right? RX part - reciver in cordless phone is strictly defined to receive only one frequency. That's why we put RX quartz there among few other things.
You said you can touch one to another antenna and nothing burns.I agree.
Few reasons for that.First very low power of used TX, second filters on RX does not allow oversaturation in simillar situations. Do examine MC3361 more carefully.Download its datasheet and read. Precautions had be taken to avoid simillar.
But you just can not use that in LRL as Esteban explained.That is my main point.
For the end i will again express my huge wonder about Estebans posts???
First (in earlier posts) he calimed to using TX in his design. Now (latest post) i read that he is using only receiver. Than agin he repeating something about transmitting...reciving...mixing???? The hell? Esteban are you real? Are your intentions here are to make jokes upon us or you just dont know what are you talking here...any more??? Calm down and decide what you gonna say in next post. First read your previous posts and than try to respect some consistency in presenting your idea here...
I am cofused more and more? I do not understand at all what are you talking here???
Come to think...maybe it was your initial idea?