VARIATION OF MORGAN'S PISTOL

[Esteban]

Friend, you have to repeat that 1000 times more. He cant give here answers simply he doesnt have answers...

Just I repeat how 1,000 times.

Regards

Esteban

[roberts]

"It will be interesting to hear your ideas about the two separate detection curcuits.."

It is quite question. I guess only original designer knows right answer.
My presumption would be that second reciver - direct receiver with ferrite rod, actually have unusuall role here. If those coils are fully resonant, than weak signals would not be enough to disturb balance. Therefore some extra "disturbing factor" must be added in overall circuitry - i guess direct receiver is there cose of that..But than again, if i am right, why using fully resonant coils???

[Fred]

"It will be interesting to hear your ideas about the two separate detection curcuits.."

It is quite question. I guess only original designer knows right answer.
My presumption would be that second reciver - direct receiver with ferrite rod, actually have unusuall role here. If those coils are fully resonant, than weak signals would not be enough to disturb balance. Therefore some extra "disturbing factor" must be added in overall circuitry - i guess direct receiver is there cose of that..But than again, if i am right, why using fully resonant coils???

There is two coils on two ferrites cores in the same axis separated by a "crititically adjusted" gap.I am not sure if both coils are wound on the same core or not.
regards,
Fred.

[roberts]

There is two coils on two ferrites cores in the same axis separated by a "crititically adjusted" gap.I am not sure if both coils are wound on the same core or not.
regards,
Fred.

Oh yes!? I havent spotted that!?
But if was like that, still i dont see reason for making gap between "active" and "passive" core? Making a gap will cut out induction which supposed to flow through cores. Cores are generally used to improve induction, to boost it not to stop it.
That particular stage is actually a big question. The rest of schematic is pretty clear.
I still think that stage was added in existed design by experiment.
When experimenting, discovering new things, man can easilly do some things pretty wild, without following previosuly planed routes.
It is so hard for me to make guesses here without having device and measure
some values in vivo.
According to what i do know, direct receiver will receive raw signal produced in its vicinity. In this case, eventual distant signal will be absolute masked by field produced in coils, if coils and ferite rod are close.
I still dont have a clue how coils and rod are oriented?
I remeber once Ivconic and me argued about ULF and its eventual use in lrl.
I can give a hint here (once gave to Ivconic) how to make very efficient ULF antenna, in manner to suggest you to replace existing ferrite rod antena with new one and than see changes;
well...
take 12 ordinary ferrite rods, 100mm x 8-10mm. Glue those togather and make one fat rod, 20cm long and 6x1 rod fat.
Wound 600 windings 0.2mm wire, isolate it very good, wound 450 over those 600 and isolate again. You will have 4 ends. End of 600 and start of 450 solder togather and you will have 3 wires than. Use it instead this one and see changes.


oo==================o
o o==================o
oo=================o

[Fred]

Hi Robert,
All info about ferrite is in the "...492 feet" thread.
Anyway by adjusting the gap you can slightly change permeablility, thus
frequency.Maybe you could get them in antiphase and obtain a perfect null?

Robert, i cannot understand you: in precedent messages you told us making an antenna for VLF would take thousands of meters of wire, now you give the recipe to make one , and more, a good one ,small enough for our purpose ???
Regards,
Fred.

[Esteban]

Hi Robert,
All info about ferrite is in the "...492 feet" thread.
Anyway by adjusting the gap you can slightly change permeablility, thus
frequency.Maybe you could get them in antiphase and obtain a perfect null?

Robert, i cannot understand you: in precedent messages you told us making an antenna for VLF would take thousands of meters of wire, now you give the recipe to make one , and more, a good one ,small enough for our purpose ???
Regards,
Fred.

Of course, you tune at 455 or 500 Khz with light and few wire and some picofarads... Tune is a thing, wave length is another thing. With his philosophy, you will need tons of wire for to tune at 12 Khz a metal detector...

[roberts]

Both of you;
just as i didnt read "492..." thread, since a most of the posts there are to anoying, same was with you - you didnt read carefully my posts.
Either you didnt cared to read and understand my posts, either i didnt sayed it on proper way. It is to anoying now, me to list all the pages and look for some sentences. Also it is anoying me to explain here about "electrical" and material lenght of an antenna. Why should i explain here this? What should be my motif?? Whatever i do, jokes like esteban will always come here to negate my claims without proper reading at all and without elementar understanding of anything i could say here. I suggested to some people to return to learn basics, didnt i?
So if you want to accept my hint - fine. If you dont - fine also.
With that gap..how you just explained...nothing will be adjusted - NOTHING.
Totall nonsence! Frequency...????? WHAT A NONSENCE !?!?!?
Only ignorants like esteban can come here a say such huge nonsence!!!

[Fred]

Both of you;
just as i didnt read "492..." thread, since a most of the posts there are to anoying, same was with you - you didnt read carefully my posts.
Either you didnt cared to read and understand my posts, either i didnt sayed it on proper way. It is to anoying now, me to list all the pages and look for some sentences. Also it is anoying me to explain here about "electrical" and material lenght of an antenna. Why should i explain here this? What should be my motif?? Whatever i do, jokes like esteban will always come here to negate my claims without proper reading at all and without elementar understanding of anything i could say here. I suggested to some people to return to learn basics, didnt i?
So if you want to accept my hint - fine. If you dont - fine also.
With that gap..how you just explained...nothing will be adjusted - NOTHING.
Totall nonsence! Frequency...????? WHAT A NONSENCE !?!?!?
Only ignorants like esteban can come here a say such huge nonsence!!!

Robert,you are again going back to your bad habits.
Just forget Esteban post if you are smart enought, you both are just doing that from the beginning.This is not constructive.You should be both used to it by now
About the ferrite stuff, no i didnt understand why you talked about thouthands of meters of wire,anyway it is not so important, as i posted there i already know an antena can be buit for any frequency with any size.
(You should be abe to accept critics, this is a signal of intelligence )

And coming back to our circuit , yes if you change gap you will slightly change permeability and consequently frequency of oscillation.
Now, if by doing this you can achieve a good nulling i am not sure .YOU should be able to tell.
Hope you will keep going with the circuit interpretation.
Regards,
Fred.

[Fred]

Not exactly RS related , but an interesting document about diferent tecnhologies and much more:

http://www.itep.ws/pdf/metal_detector_handbook.pdf

(3Mb)
Regards,
Fred.

[michael]

Hi ,
Thanks a lot Fred for the link, I was looking for this so much. You made a favor man.

[roberts]

Listen, some things are not to be generalized, the way usually laics do. And i ment mostly on Esteban's way. Now, this time i am serious, i do not mean to provoke Esteban with this or to say he is ignorant. This time i am very serious and like to point on usuall Esteban's generalization and simplification of some things, he probably saw or heared somewhere or loearned on wrong way.
Ok Esteban, you also, if you want to be constructive than do not feel offended with this, you simply can not generalize all the things here.
If you saw somewhere in some radio an RF choke with ferrite core screwable and it was used to fine redjust some frequency - this doesnt mean EVERY possible ferrite core have same function. No, not at all. RF chokes with ferrite screw inside usually do have simillar function, mostly to adjust small coil to be resonant on some incoming/outgoing signal. Best example would be TOKO type cores for AM/FM etc.etc. Yes in these cases man can usually adjust some frequency with those.
But using plain ferrite rod as sort of antenna with resonant coil wounded over it is quite another case. Moving core more in/out of windings doesnt automatically mean you gonna readjust some frequency. Mostly it means adjusting level of induction - amplitude of induced current.
So i would rather say; if that gap makes any sence than its role should be to adjust amplitude of induced (in this case received) signal from nearby coil. Is it nearby? I really dont know? I havent seen orientations yet. But logically i am presuming ferrite rod must be in some logical conjuction with other coils?
Otherwise i really do not understand rod's role at all here?
So let;s say i guessed right; operater can adjust amplitude by dealing with gap. Ok.

[roberts]

About wavelengths, antennas...etc.etc..
Theoretically antena with zero lost is antena with ideal Q factor. Antena with ideal Q factor is usually fulllenght antena. (Now i am generalizing here but ,when talking to laics man have to become laic).
So if you want 100% efficient antena you better use full lenght antena. Not possible in these purposes. So logically Esteban is right, in this purpose antena must be much shorter than physical wavelength.
Taking any turns for any frequency will result in catastrofic reception. So some rule must be respected.
If you remeber i suggested 455kHz receiver design earlier!? Do you?
You know why? Just because i wanted to make your (and my) life much less complicated in future when design step in practical phase. Instead discovering "hot water", i would further sugest just ordinary ferrite rod antena taken form some scraped radio....simple as that.
But no...my suggestion was never accepted properly, just cose same reasons as here...smart asses usually do not read and try to understand but usually listen only own voice and read own words...others...who cares??
You must understand me, it is damn hard for me to be at same level of thinking with you (again i am not trying to offend). But those are elementar and real basics....you have to learn at least that to be able to understand further things...Without that elementary knowledge you are wasting my time here (reffered to Esteban mostly).

[Esteban]

About wavelengths, antennas...etc.etc..
Theoretically antena with zero lost is antena with ideal Q factor. Antena with ideal Q factor is usually fulllenght antena. (Now i am generalizing here but ,when talking to laics man have to become laic).
So if you want 100% efficient antena you better use full lenght antena. Not possible in these purposes. So logically Esteban is right, in this purpose antena must be much shorter than physical wavelength.
Taking any turns for any frequency will result in catastrofic reception. So some rule must be respected.
If you remeber i suggested 455kHz receiver design earlier!? Do you?
You know why? Just because i wanted to make your (and my) life much less complicated in future when design step in practical phase. Instead discovering "hot water", i would further sugest just ordinary ferrite rod antena taken form some scraped radio....simple as that.
But no...my suggestion was never accepted properly, just cose same reasons as here...smart asses usually do not read and try to understand but usually listen only own voice and read own words...others...who cares??
You must understand me, it is damn hard for me to be at same level of thinking with you (again i am not trying to offend). But those are elementar and real basics....you have to learn at least that to be able to understand further things...Without that elementary knowledge you are wasting my time here (reffered to Esteban mostly).

Thanks professor!!! I'll follow your advices!!!

[Fred]

Robert,
You think you are so smarter than everybody that you stopped learning long time ago .But evolution continues around you,carefull or you will become a fossile.
Don´t be offended, it´s a frienldy advice.
And it´s the last one, it´s so hard to pull me up to your level to write to you that i´m definitevely exhausted already.

Fred.

[roberts]

Robert,

You think you are so smarter than everybody that you stopped learning long time ago .But evolution continues around you,carefull or you will become a fossile.
Don´t be offended, it´s a frienldy advice.
And it´s the last one, it´s so hard to pull me up to your level to write to you that i´m definitevely exhausted already.

Fred.

Oooh! Does it look like i am???
Of course i dont think i am smarter than everybody!!!! Of course i am NOT!
I do radio for living, therefore i do expect to know more than ordinary electronic enthusiast. Other hand i dont know much about other electronics.
I stopped learning....well yes, you are almost right here. Not because i learned all, but because my everyday routine left not time for learning new things oftenly. Besides....after 20-30 years i feel a bit tired of all.
You exhausted...??? From what?
But you are not exhausted from wathching funny photos here and reading funny, lunatic claims, about detecting item at "492 feet..." coin at 8 to 40 meters....what was else??? Help me? I cant even remeber all the nonsences posted here!?
Am i tired of "fighting" here with lrl proponents evryday? No i am not! It is a sort of hobby for me! Habbit! Everyday routine also!Amusing! Adiction!



Think what ever you want to think. How can i stop you doing that? No way!
Arguing with Esteban here is relaxing hobby for me. Thanks a lot Esteban, for giving me such a pleasure!

So,so....finally all masks droped! Ego is point here! Not real knowledge! Ha!
I have to admit - am a bit disapointed..