The so-called PHENOMENON

[Max]

I see.
Is it posted on this forum, at one place? Complete project?

... better if you ask Esteban about...

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Hi,
sure, it exist... it's not a trick of the mind in this case... the fact is known to many hobbists around the world.

Indeed, the problem is that just few , very sensitive MDs (expecially VLF as I know) can detect consistently halo formations around very old buried something... and that's appears as the target is bigger than it is really.

Also, once dug the soil was disturbed and the regular detection depth for target become apparent... and less than before , when item is buried.

As you stated in an old post the effect can be seen due to the fact some targets cannot be detected at a distance as just "targets" and the fact they are detected farther when buried is not only suspect (actually on fresh buried targets the soil mask the target presence, as we all know from air-tests and in-soil test depth comparisions) but I think a proof the effect exist and is real.

I say that both for ferromagnetic and non-ferromagnetic materials it exist... (but never seen on e.g. gold stuff) it happens easy on old iron (but still compact at core) , old bronze, old copper , old silver...

I think that all metal detectorists have experienced this "halo" at some time. For iron, copper, etc., it is easy to explain, but there is no reason why the "halo" should exist for a gold coin, or similar object. Of course, in some cases the object was not actually at the claimed depth at all, but was lodged in the side wall. Then the detectorist does not notice when it falls into the bottom of the hole. This can easily explain what's happening in some cases, especially if you use DD coils, which can often prove troublesome when poinpointing. In one particular case I know that this did not happen to me, because I was on my knees scratching out the soil from a deep hole with my hand, and I uncovered the coin at the bottom. It was a 1797 George III copper coin. This was one of the first early coins to be minted in the new-fangled steam presses of the time.
Without the soil in place, it was not possible to detect this coin at the bottom of the hole.
I have never experienced this "halo" for either silver or gold.

[Max]

I think that all metal detectorists have experienced this "halo" at some time. For iron, copper, etc., it is easy to explain, but there is no reason why the "halo" should exist for a gold coin, or similar object. Of course, in some cases the object was not actually at the claimed depth at all, but was lodged in the side wall. Then the detectorist does not notice when it falls into the bottom of the hole. This can easily explain what's happening in some cases, especially if you use DD coils, which can often prove troublesome when poinpointing. In one particular case I know that this did not happen to me, because I was on my knees scracthing out the soil from a deep hole with my hand, and I uncovered the coin at the bottom. It was a 1797 George III coper coin. This was one of the first early coins to be minted in the new-fangled steam presses of the time.
Without the soil in place, it was not possible to detect this coin at the bottom of the hole.
I have never experienced this "halo" for either silver or gold.

Hi,
sure, gold I never see too. But on silver I can say I saw similar stuff... silver coins that I found that way, over the detection range in-air, were BLACK... cause they corroded in soil.

Now, I'm not totally sure that wasn't with targets on walls of the hole as you described (was many years ago... I simply don't remember now) but the simple fact I detected the small coins over the in-air detection range has a meaning I think.

Kind regards,
Max

[Geo]

I believe that we only speak "in order to we speak". Morgan made us a proposal to go to Portugal, so that we see the PD working. Only that it remains, is we gather itself 3… 4 men and we go to meet Morgan. I am allocated to go. Some other??

Regards

[Fred]

Man, this is a fast moving thread

Sim Fred,podes vir sozinho ou em grupo.
Traz tambem o teu PD...

Obrigado Morgan,
I wish i could go there, but the problerm is the couple of thousand kilometers that separes us...

So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.But...than this would mean lrl's with this detection technique are suitable and effective only in simillar environments. If those are effective at all.
But in more complicated environments there are so many ions and ion clouds, floating arround, with various origins..so that kind of locating technique would turn to be totally uselless. Cose you simply can not distinguish between ions and further to recognize their origin.

Yes!
And i think some places in South America, if not deserts, are flat and homogenous enought to help this detection to occur at greater distances, but even if it "only" works a reduced distance in more populated areas, it still could be interesting.

But "Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone" cause, probably, the whole PD stuff is just a randomic beeper at LRL distances... Kind regards,Max

Max , let´s keep positive, an to be honest i think there is more to try with it, in my case the conditions in wich experiments were conducted were not the best. What i have found is that it randomly beeps and is sensitive to some effect we couldn´t explain.

Regards,
Fred.

[J_Player]

Morgan made us a proposal to go to Portugal, so that we see the PD working. Only that it remains, is we gather itself 3… 4 men and we go to meet Morgan. I am allocated to go. Some other??

Hi Geo,

This is an excellent idea. There is no need to make arguments and try to guess, when you can see with your own eyes. If I lived in Europe, I would definitely go to see. Portugal is a very nice place, and Morgan can show you the best places to visit after you see his pistol detector and other LRLs finding treasure.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Hi Ivconic,
You are right about small mass of the coin. But what has been discovered is there are metal ions that move away from the coin in all directions and become disolved in the soil. There is no defined diameter because the concentration diminishes logarithmically. (We can say that there is a good halo at a 10 cm radius, even though it extends farther in weaker amounts). This raduis sphere is tranformed into a vertical column that moves slowly upward due to the capillary actions of the rain cycles. The ions continue to populate this column until the final 10-30 cm of the surface.

Thus, the halo area is many hundreds of times larger than the coin when measured by volume. Suppose a coin was buried 40 cm deep, and had a cylindrical column of ions dissolved in soil that approximated 10 cm radius with 25 cm height. --- The volume of this ion column is nearly 8 liters. How many coins would fit in 8 liters?

To be fair, the halo area of ionized soil may not be as strong as the coin for showing eddy currents in a metal detector, but it contributes sometimes to show a signal nearly twice as strong. What is more important is the electric field effects. The atmospheric current leaking between the earth and atmosphere will tend to favor areas of the ground that are more conductive, and transfer charges more easily. This anomaly made of ions, while having lesser mass than the coin, can have a large influence on the voltage gradient above the halo ground. Maybe large enough to measure. But as you say, there are many other interfering noises that make this hard to find. Some of the best conditions are:

1. Away from civilization - power lines, radio broadcasts, etc.
2. Between the hours of 10:00am and 2:00pm (may vary ins different countries)
3. Low relative humidity
4. The soil must contain chemicals that dissolve the metal. Otherwise there will be no ions or halo. For gold, this means there must be some gold-digesting bacteria that can corrode the metal by secreting cyanide and sulfur complexes. These bacteria have been found up to 5000 feet deep in gold mines, as well as near the surface.
5. Damp soil - preferably drying after a wet spell.
6. Long time buried metal. it takes some time depending on the metal.
7. Copper, lead, iron and zinc are known to dissolve a high concentration of ions in some soils. Most common metals are good for creating a halo. Poor metals that take longer are gold, stainless steel, platinum, palladium, etc.

Best wishes,
J_P

Here we found better hours are 8.00 to 17.00 PM, and maybe the best is 16.00 PM.

Lead is "cold" metal, but the most wich creates halo (or field) rapidly is bronze and copper.

[Esteban]

That is very acceptable theory, but only if there is method to mark out ions origin by some specific feature. So to know which ion came from which origin. I am not some expert in ions, but i do know ions are ions...no matter the origin. So.. that would be acceptable approach (ionic detection) only in primitive environments....like sandy deserts, where are far less chances to meet ions from various origins. So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.
But...than this would mean lrl's with this detection technique are suitable and effective only in simillar environments. If those are effective at all.
But in more complicated environments there are so many ions and ion clouds, floating arround, with various origins..so that kind of locating technique would turn to be totally uselless. Cose you simply can not distinguish between ions and further to recognize their origin.
So... ionic detection technique will always indicate presence of various ions. Everywhere. How to know which one is coming from hoard?

For example, iron you can reject easyli because degradate rapidly, so bronze, for me, is the most "sweet"... The only time I detect an iron object was a stove buried at 1 m or more, but beeps was interminent, very intermitent, but from 40 m. But also this stove has copper pipes, but I'm sure detection was by the iron, because, at the end, the iron mask here the "signal" of good conductive metals as copper, silver, gold...

Here occurs exactly as normal MD: in terrain with high concentration of iron, in my country a type of red soil, detection can be mask in gran manner. In salty terrain detection is long, but no precisse, due a kind of "disperssion" occurs.

[Esteban]

I am sure that you made much experiments on this subject. Also i am sure that you made many various devices so far. Most of those devices do react somehow on something, i do beleive that.
What i can not accept is claim that you or anybody else can accuratelly detect one single coin at....1m in soil, BUT; knowing for sure and being 80% sure it is coin, before digging!
What i want to say is:
it is easy to make device which will "squeek", "crack" , "peep" or indicate on some other way, some "detection" of something.
We have here Zahori..among other devices. It is also "squeeking" arround wildly. So...by random and pretty wild coincidency operator can walk arround and dig holes, and certainly he will discover some item in the ground, sooner or later. So..it is good chance, acting like that, to dig many good items. Especially if that location has rich history, so many good items and finds are present there. Than that prospector will be 100% sure his device was accurate and usefull. Even if that device was empty plastic box with ordinary radio telescopic antenna....
I rather beleive that your results were achieved by strange and wild coincidence and possiblly due fact that you live and prospecting in historically rich area.
That's why is neccessary to test such devices in another regions, far away from your place.
Me also...i live in very interesting area where ancient roman roads are crossing. There are numerous locations and sites. There are many sites where i dont need detector at all. Just need to walk and dig randomly. On each 10 holes i will discover at least 5 nice finds. Without any device by me. So..if i took Zahori with me, it would "squeek" randomly arround, i would dig holes, find nice finds...and at the end of a day i would be 100% sure Zahori was accurate and powerfull!!?? Although, actually, it was 100% uselles..
Understand me? That is , what i beleive is, a case here.

Yes, you're right, but here with a poor history, few objects in soil in comparisson Europe, etc., is more, but more difficult, to be a coincidence...

[Esteban]

Hi Ivconic,
This "halo" or similar is the same as Esteban calls the "Phenomenon".

You see it as a halo that shows a stronger than normal metal detector signal until you dig the target. But LRL proponents see it as having many more properties than that. In fact there are thousands of scientists that have reported similar findings about long time buried metal objects as what Esteban describes.

What we know from scientists is that long time buried metals corrode under the ground, and this corrosion results in metal ions dissolving in the soil and eventually combining with salts in the soil. This constitutes a weak form of "ground battery" which can be seen as an anomaly in the telluric currents which normally flow in the soil. But scientists have also discovered that these metal ions tavel upwards in a column through the soil above the buried metal, until they reach the last 10-30 cm of the surface, where they combine with other elements and become bound (no longer an ion). This all happens very slowly, and can be accelerated by the rain cycles, and by bacteria that attack metals under the ground by producing corrosive substances like cyanide.

The LRL proponents claim they have LRLs that are able to detect secondary effects of this corroding metal halo area of the ground. Things like anomalies of the earth's atmospheric space charge in the air above the buried metal, anomalies of the earth's magnetic field in the area of the halo, anomalies in the ground conductivity or resistivity in the area of the halo, etc.

We also have an LRL proponent who claims that gold has DNA which produces a substance that coats the surface to protect it from rust and oxidation, etc.

I suppose you are right... Some of these things may be true, and some maybe not.
But until you see an LRL recovering treasure in front of your eyes, you are only hearing stories.

Best wishes,
J_P

No scientis told us. We, many years ago, with our empiric methods and meditions conclude that the phenomenon is complex: electricity, magnetism, chemical combinations, ions, and maybe associated with RF.

Regards

[Fred]

HLead is "cold" metal, but the most wich creates halo (or field) rapidly is bronze and copper.

Esteban,what about aluminium? it is a metal wich oxydes rapidly and is reactive.

[Esteban]

Esteban,what about aluminium? it is a metal wich oxydes rapidly and is reactive.

For the absorptive pistol, no. Maybe for very sensitive electrometer yes.

[Fred]

For the absorptive pistol, no. Maybe for very sensitive electrometer yes.

Interesting : Bronze yes, aluminium no,iron not much, this is a clue!

[Esteban]

Interesting : Bronze yes, aluminium no,iron not much, this is a clue!

If the bronze is round as coin or buttons, round form, or circular as buckle, better.

[Fred]

If the bronze is round as coin or buttons, round form, or circular as buckle, better.

Ok Esteban,
So i suppose a sphere would be even better.
and if a sphere is better, to experiment a sphere with a spike in it.
Problem is if we need to wait a few years between each experiment.