The so-called PHENOMENON

[ivconic]

Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing is something much different.
I really can not accept an understand that phenomenna. But i saw several people claim abillity for such thing. Yet never saw any success made using that method.
It is equal to fortune teller type of predictions. No mockery here, just personal opinion.
But...trust me; i really do have an open mind for listening details about this.
Really would like to hear detailed explanations about whole process of map,photo&information dowsing. Step by step. It is very interesting (despite my own attitude upon that) and would be usefull to have such text here once for all. Cose otherwise we can continue to make assumptions and most probably to continue with mockery and jokes on that subject.
Explanation must be done by someone conversant in that stuff.

[ivconic]

Reffering Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing ...
We can make a test here. First we need person who claims to be able to to that. Than someone of us may give location and map...and some photo here where we can not exactly see subject of dowsing. But those informations must be closely related to that subject. And dowser will examine posted datas and say here some more details about subject of dowsing. Than we will see results. Is there any truth or not. For example, i have photos and maps of few suspectable places...

[J_Player]

I ment to say " Ain't no other acceptable (to me) explanation.."

Hi Ivconic,
Suppose you were to discover that there is more than one explanation to suggest that the human body has sensory organs that can sense the location of buried objects? Suppose there were tests conducted that showed information to suggest the exact location of these sensory organs, and ways to shield them so they would stop responding? Would that be an acceptable (to you) explanation that would be worth the trouble of further investigation?

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing is something much different.

Hi Ivconic,
Yes, you are right. This is something much different.
This thread began as Qiaozhi's discussion of the "phenomenon" which some of us call "halo", and its relationship to the "DNA of gold" and a substance it produces to protect gold from oxidation. It is about the physical properties of gold that has been buried for a long time and the ground around it. Not about dowsing techniques. But since Dell Winders appeared, the posts drifted off to dowsing techniques and name calling.

Maybe it is a good time to start a new thread that focuses on dowsing techniques and explanations to learn the interesting information for people who want to discover answers about dowsing. I will be watching closely to see the results of your photo-map dowsing test.


Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing is something much different.I really can not accept an understand that phenomenna.

We have to remember that all the stories we see on TV etc are success stories.
I have never seen a story of unsuccesfull dowser.Why?
And please don´t tell me it is because they are always succesfull

Qiaozhi: "this is how selective memory works"

[Theseus]

Hi Theseus,
You may be right about that. If so, it would mean that ideamoter response results in not finding the target other than by occasional chance occurrences where the percent of correct locations is the same as the percent correct locations found by a person simply guessing places to dig.

The important question is about category 1 -- dowsing done by a person who gets responses that result in finding the correct location of the target significantly more times than chance guessing. If this is happening, then it cannot be caused by simple "ideamotor response", but something else that gives the dowser an advantage over simple chance guessing.

<<< other parts snipped >>>
Best wishes,
J_P

Let's, for the sake of this discussion, say there really is a Category 1 (even though we can't seem to find any hard evidence of it). From my experiences, I could not say that an "ideomotor response" was not involved (in all categories).

However, in order for Category 1 to actually exist, we have to look beyond the physical "ideomotor response" (that caused the indication) and consider what TRIGGERED that response in the first place.

There is a TRIGGER involved before ANY ideomotor response can occur, no matter what Category of result you are speaking. Also, this TRIGGER may come from the Conscious or the Unconscious areas of the mind. When they come from the Conscious Mind, they are as a result of Wishful Thinking, and will result in pure Chance Guessing outcomes. When the TRIGGER comes from the Unconscious area, it is unknown whether a genuine external stimulus caused the trigger, or it was caused by "deep-seated" notions and beliefs from within the dowser. Hence, the resultant outcome may also be on a par with Chance Guessing. Though if the TRIGGER came from "accurate" external stimuli, then the result would be accurate as well.

Of course there is one other facet of the TRIGGER, before the ideomotor response. That is, there is no way the operator can tell from which source the TRIGGER came. No way! There are dowsers who claim they can tell, but they are sadly mistaken. That is also why there is no such thing as Mental and Physical dowsing. Those terms were invented by a scam artist wallet-miner to feather his nest with capital gains from the gullible and technically-challenged.

Still, as you say, the fact remains - if there are any Category 1 individuals, to this date, none have been able to demonstrate their talent. And, I'm not expecting any to come forward anytime soon with a valid demonstration. JMHO...

[Qiaozhi]

With regard to Map, Photo, & Information (mental) Dowsing, I see your opinion is not based on any experience, or research. and therefore imaginary, and useless.


From TNET.

Just like map, photo and mental dowsing then.

[Max]

True Dowsing is a Mental application, such as Map, Photo, and Information. Meta-Physics, psychic output from the sub-conscious, via a trained (programmed) mind/muscle ideomoter response. It's triggered by an internal stimulus.

When the Rod(s) are used in a field search application, too often physics come into play. External stimulus such as Magnetics, and possibly other factors (physics) appear to have an effect on hand held Dowsing Rod(s), as well as wind, weather, rough terrain, etc, when physically searching for the emanating "field" of chemical elements.

MFD, HID, LRL, and most directional locators are used in a physics application, Not a mental Dowsing application, as some here seem to insist. In fact, most of these configurations would be difficult, and impractical tools to use for mental Dowsing.

I use a needle & thread and it's a great tool for Dowsing, but not so good for a physics application, unless of course, you use it to sew, or remove a splinter.

Certainly, there are those who don't know the distinction, who will unwittingly try to intertwine dowsing with physics. This can be confusing and cause inaccuracies for the inexperienced. The correct interpretation of the reaction of the Rod(s) is different in a mental dowsing application, than it is in a physics application.

The term "Dowsing", when associated with a physics application of the hand held rod(s) is an inaccurate misnomer. It is often mis-labeled Dowsing, when the definition is taken out of context. One terminology does not fit both.

O.K. you seem to correctly be making a distinction by not including Map, Photo, & and Information Dowsing in your categorization, so to avoid confusion among viewers I suggest leaving the term "Dowsing," and mind/muscle "ideomotor" response totally out of a discussion of physics, and their effects on Hand held L-Rod(s), lest Skeptics continue to demonstrate their ignorance of these subjects. Swallow your ego's,(don't choke) and decide to become serious about learning, and stop bashing & mocking those who do have at least some working knowledge and show them respect.

That's certainly a joke, that I will see egotists, and pretend scientist posting on Carl Morland's forum who are open minded to learning from a 6th grader? To me, It's a sad commentary for the skeptic mentality, but even if I live to be 100. I won't live long enough to see that happen. Dell

So, Continue what you know best. CUE: Mocking and bashing, please!

Think I understand your internal stimulus for ideomotor response... I think you're triggered during bathromm sessions...

When you create the diamonds by that stilmulus...I mean..., remember hi-pressure... hi-temperature and perseverance could make the miracle!

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Just like map, photo and mental dowsing then.

Mental dowsing or not...but, Qiaozhi right now i can "see" some cash money in your pockets...from here! I used your last post to concentrate!
It is misty....but i also "see" you are sitting and typing something ...and YES you have Linux installed on your pc - that's what i am sure about!

Ha,ha,ha! This is not valid example. I made it just for fun and to illustrate what we should not accept here as example if somebody offers here to perform demonstration of mental dowsing...

[Max]

True Dowsing is a Mental application, such as Map, Photo, and Information. Meta-Physics, psychic output from the sub-conscious, via a trained (programmed) mind/muscle ideomoter response. It's triggered by an internal stimulus.

When the Rod(s) are used in a field search application, too often physics come into play. External stimulus such as Magnetics, and possibly other factors (physics) appear to have an effect on hand held Dowsing Rod(s), as well as wind, weather, rough terrain, etc, when physically searching for the emanating "field" of chemical elements.

MFD, HID, LRL, and most directional locators are used in a physics application, Not a mental Dowsing application, as some here seem to insist. In fact, most of these configurations would be difficult, and impractical tools to use for mental Dowsing.

I use a needle & thread and it's a great tool for Dowsing, but not so good for a physics application, unless of course, you use it to sew, or remove a splinter.

Certainly, there are those who don't know the distinction, who will unwittingly try to intertwine dowsing with physics. This can be confusing and cause inaccuracies for the inexperienced. The correct interpretation of the reaction of the Rod(s) is different in a mental dowsing application, than it is in a physics application.

The term "Dowsing", when associated with a physics application of the hand held rod(s) is an inaccurate misnomer. It is often mis-labeled Dowsing, when the definition is taken out of context. One terminology does not fit both.

O.K. you seem to correctly be making a distinction by not including Map, Photo, & and Information Dowsing in your categorization, so to avoid confusion among viewers I suggest leaving the term "Dowsing," and mind/muscle "ideomotor" response totally out of a discussion of physics, and their effects on Hand held L-Rod(s), lest Skeptics continue to demonstrate their ignorance of these subjects. Swallow your ego's,(don't choke) and decide to become serious about learning, and stop bashing & mocking those who do have at least some working knowledge and show them respect.

That's certainly a joke, that I will see egotists, and pretend scientist posting on Carl Morland's forum who are open minded to learning from a 6th grader? To me, It's a sad commentary for the skeptic mentality, but even if I live to be 100. I won't live long enough to see that happen. Dell

So, Continue what you know best. CUE: Mocking and bashing, please!

So Dell...
I suppose this girl wanna dowse for treasure... mental dowsing of course...
isn't that the preferred start position ?

Or must buy a paint roller handle first ?

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

So Dell...
I suppose this girl wanna dowse for treasure... mental dowsing of course...
Max

Don´t dowse any more, girl , you have found your treasure! i´m here!

[J_Player]

Of course there is one other facet of the TRIGGER, before the ideomotor response. That is, there is no way the operator can tell from which source the TRIGGER came. No way!

Hi Theseus,
You have applied your concept of a trigger to "ideamotor response". I presume this means the dowser is holding rods without making any kinds of thoughts that involve deciding things or arriving at conclusions. He is only allowing responses to happen when some "trigger mechanism" compels his hands to respond.

This could work for any of the senses. ie: a person driving, while not thinking about anything in particular has a sudden response to slow down. He then realizes he has spotted a black and white car with lights flashing on top of it (before he had any conscious thoughts about it, he responded). This principle also works when you get too close to a fire, or sit on a needle that you can feel, etc.

Other times, we use our senses while making conscious thoughts and decisions. ie: you are lost, so you look for landmarks, where do you see the sun in the sky, street signs, etc. You think about the things you see, and process this data consciously and purposefully. Then you arrive at a conclusion of where to go.

With dowsing, either of these mechanisms could be used. In the case where you don't have a clue what you are doing, you may be using pure ideamotor guessing responses, and digging lots of empty holes. Or you may be processing information you read at the library, and on maps that give you some ideas about the treasure when you decide where to dowse at. Perhaps thinking and arriving at conclusions constitutes part of the "trigger" for this manner of dowsing.

But what about the possibility that there are more sensory mechanisms than the 5 common senses? Suppose a dowser has some sensory input that tells him to feel nervous and causes his arm muscles to twitch when he walks in certain locations. Suppose he also has a certain "recognizable feeling" that he has learned to associate with different kinds of anomalies he finds when he is dowsing. None of this has been confirmed, but it haas been reported by some dowsers. If it is true, then what about determining the source of this "sensory input"?

Consider the sense of hearing. You can tell the source of a sound fairly well, as well as a lot of other informatiion about the sound just by listening as you walk. Suppose these reports of another "sensory input" were also able to gain some clues to the source of the "trigger" in the same manner as hearing does, or perhaps vision, or smell? This would mean it is not a purely "ideamotor responsse", but a response that is more similar to a "sensory input response", as in Pavlov's dog.

Of course, this is all hypothetical wishful dream-thinking until a person is located that can accurately find things by dowsing better than chance guessing, and demonstrate for some testing to see if it is true or not.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

True Dowsing is a Mental application, such as Map, Photo, and Information. Meta-Physics, psychic output from the sub-conscious, via a trained (programmed) mind/muscle ideomoter response. It's triggered by an internal stimulus.

The reality is somewhat different. It's a convenient method of wallet-mining, without having to leave the comfort of your own home.

When the Rod(s) are used in a field search application, too often physics come into play. External stimulus such as Magnetics, and possibly other factors (physics) appear to have an effect on hand held Dowsing Rod(s), as well as wind, weather, rough terrain, etc, when physically searching for the emanating "field" of chemical elements.

The rods mostly move due to gravity, but occasionally wind and rain causes movement.

MFD, HID, LRL, and most directional locators are used in a physics application, Not a mental Dowsing application, as some here seem to insist. In fact, most of these configurations would be difficult, and impractical tools to use for mental Dowsing.

Correction ... pseudo-scientific application. In other words, a well known mind trick explained using wish-science.

I use a needle & thread and it's a great tool for Dowsing, but not so good for a physics application, unless of course, you use it to sew, or remove a splinter.

Wallet mining from the kitchen table, or (if performed in the living room) "armchair dowsing".

Certainly, there are those who don't know the distinction, who will unwittingly try to intertwine dowsing with physics. This can be confusing and cause inaccuracies for the inexperienced. The correct interpretation of the reaction of the Rod(s) is different in a mental dowsing application, than it is in a physics application.

The only intertwining of dowsing with physics is via gravity. The rest is a fairyland interpretation.

The term "Dowsing", when associated with a physics application of the hand held rod(s) is an inaccurate misnomer. It is often mis-labeled Dowsing, when the definition is taken out of context. One terminology does not fit both.

No idea what that is supposed to mean. It's just meaningless gobbledygook.

O.K. you seem to correctly be making a distinction by not including Map, Photo, & and Information Dowsing in your categorization, so to avoid confusion among viewers I suggest leaving the term "Dowsing," and mind/muscle "ideomotor" response totally out of a discussion of physics, and their effects on Hand held L-Rod(s), lest Skeptics continue to demonstrate their ignorance of these subjects. Swallow your ego's,(don't choke) and decide to become serious about learning, and stop bashing & mocking those who do have at least some working knowledge and show them respect.

That would be a smart thing to do. But why would you want to change the habit of a lifetime?

That's certainly a joke, that I will see egotists, and pretend scientist posting on Carl Morland's forum who are open minded to learning from a 6th grader? To me, It's a sad commentary for the skeptic mentality, but even if I live to be 100. I won't live long enough to see that happen. Dell

Now who's being egotistical?

So, Continue what you know best. CUE: Mocking and bashing, please!

It would be my pleasure.

"WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK."

[Qiaozhi]

The rest of your post is compatible to just what i wanted to say also, but couldn't elaborate that good due my poor managing in English language..

That's never stopped Dell.

At least you don't post nonsense.

[Qiaozhi]

Mental dowsing or not...but, Qiaozhi right now i can "see" some cash money in your pockets...from here! I used your last post to concentrate!
It is misty....but i also "see" you are sitting and typing something ...and YES you have Linux installed on your pc - that's what i am sure about!

Ha,ha,ha! This is not valid example. I made it just for fun and to illustrate what we should not accept here as example if somebody offers here to perform demonstration of mental dowsing...

Yes .... I too am concentrating at my kitchen table, and ..... it's becoming clear ... you are using Windows without any anti-virus software.

This message will self-destruct in 10 seconds, leaving your disk infected with spam and spyware.