IR Lasing Gold

[Theseus]

Other thoughts...

The following excerpted from

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080213091230AAwDLZA

"My father used to tell me stories about buried treasures and precolumbian gold. Supossedly, the buried gold would produce a blue flame that could be seen at night, and the country people and farmers would go out at night tracing this flames in order to find the treasure. Is this scientifically possible?

There is a wealth of folklore built up around buried gold and lost treasure and mines. Gold is inert; it does not have any kind of reaction with soil or gases, or anything like that, so any blue glow or flames associated with it would be secondary, and not affiliated directly with the gold. It may have been a productive technique--digging in the vicinity of a blue flame, but it wasn't the gold itself giving off the glow.
On a side note--the idea of a 'blue flame' and gold may also be associated on a spiritual level, as within alchemy.

It isn't true. I am sure they saw swamp gas and assumed there was treasure there kind of like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

well ask yourself this question, did they ever find the gold. if they didn't then the stories are just stories."

[Esteban]

Once, a man told me that in an old militar encampment during Triple Alliance War (1864-1870) –the main Allied encampment, 55,000 man live in the site–, he saw small flames for all parts. He told me that these flames occurs before rains. Seems logic, because atmospheric pressure is more low and liberates the "other phenomenon pressed"... like septic chambers, you smells odors when pressure is in diminution. OK. The site was plagued of good items, bronze, copper, stirrups cover with silver, buttons, thousands and thousands good items. The many small flames he saw are in concordance with all these old items or not? Who knows?

[Seden]

Fringe technology your ***

I baited you when I wrote that sentence you quoted I'll be honest.

Look, my point is and has been all along, any crackpot can make negative comments-that's easy. Junior High School kids do it the best.
What lacks integrity is the person making the negative comments not actually building the circuit and testing for themselves thoroughly. In industry it's called doing "due diligence", THEN and only THEN do you have the talking rights and not just being a naysayer which is meaningless unless you've had the education and experience of someone like Carl.

Of all the people who contribute to this forum, Esteban appears to hold the record for building and testing circuits(complete with photos and schematics of his work). He may not show us ALL of his work and why should he? The mans worked for something like 30 years exploring various theories,why should he just hand them to us on a plate especially if people are just going to ridicule him?

So let's get back to the Nanotech website aricle I posted,what strikes you as unscientific about it? Give me your scientific thoughts on lasing gold Theseus, Fred and Qiaozhi.

Randy

[Fred]

There is a wealth of folklore built up around buried gold and lost treasure and mines. Gold is inert; it does not have any kind of reaction with soil or gases, or anything like that,

Being inert doesn´t mean much, something inert in a "non-inert " medium still constitues an anomaly

... He may not show us ALL of his work and why should he? The mans worked for something like 30 years exploring various theories,why should he just hand them to us on a plate especially if people are just going to ridicule him?

Precisely because guys in their armchairs are ALSO necessary to devellop a project.No one has all the ideas and knowledge, so (IMO) Esteban posts some information (the less possible, not on a plate) to allow the willing ones to build it or think about it and eventually share what the know or have learnt.


About IR i can´t see how ,even if IR was emitted by gold excited by a laser that would go 50cm deep,could retransmit it again through earth.
But it is easy to try, there is plenty of cheap IR sensitive surveillance cameras to make this test.
I have a good one specially sensitive to IR and very low illumination and a WW2 glass IR filter,i want to try to see through clothes,never tried yet

[Seden]

Depth of Laser

Fred,

Yeah the depth is not important per se for locating a placer gold deposit, so just illuminating the surface is sufficient. I've got an 808nm laser coming so will see if it works for regular placer gold with it's impurities.

Randy

[Theseus]

I baited you when I wrote that sentence you quoted I'll be honest.
Randy

Randy, if you've got time to make postings in an antagonistic manner, just to see what you can stir up; then I think you succeeded. You also succeeded in telling me (and others) that you aren't that serious about investigating the fringe technology you quoted.

Incidentally, you are sadly off base (and mistaken) if you think those who make comments about your fringe technology, must first physically build examples of the junk before passing judgment on it. Some things are simply intuitively obvious to the most casual observers, merely as a result of having prior knowledge and experience. To think otherwise, is akin to saying LRL/MFD contraptions are part of rational science and physics and no one should think otherwise until they've physically built one and learned firsthand that it is a total hoax. That would be lunatic thinking.

If you like playing with fringe technology (and other things that go bump in the night), by all means have at it. And, if you like introducing your fringe technology into an "open forum", feel free to do so and understand that you may not get 100% agreement with your ideas.

Of course if you introduced the idea strictly to see if you could stir up the natives.... I think the term for such activity is "troll".

[Seden]

Let's try this one more time

What part of the article from Nanotechweb is Fringe Science? From your reply I don't think you even took the time to read it or you wouldn't be making such a comment. "Chemists and physicists at Humboldt University and Free University of Berlin could show that gold nanoparticles exhibit a bright luminescence with multiphoton near-infrared excitation".
You're insulting these Scientists. When you make statements like that without proof to back it up, people reading this thread will be on the floor laughing at you,is that what you want?

I didn't start this thread to have anything to do with debate, I just wanted to bring this information to the attention of the Forum hoping to have technical input.

Randy

[Qiaozhi]

What part of the article from Nanotechweb is Fringe Science? From your reply I don't think you even took the time to read it or you wouldn't be making such a comment. "Chemists and physicists at Humboldt University and Free University of Berlin could show that gold nanoparticles exhibit a bright luminescence with multiphoton near-infrared excitation".
You're insulting these Scientists. When you make statements like that without proof to back it up, people reading this thread will be on the floor laughing at you,is that what you want?

I didn't start this thread to have anything to do with debate, I just wanted to bring this information to the attention of the Forum hoping to have technical input.

Randy

You are taking the article completely out of context.

The article states:
"...monodispersed gold nanoparticles can be embedded and stabilized in 350 nm thin silicate-titanate films prepared by a sol-gel spin-coating technique and subsequent annealing at 300 °C or, alternatively, near-infrared (NIR) femtosecond laser irradiation."

This is a laboratory process that shows some potential for biological imaging using NIR and spectroscopy. It has no possible application for treasure hunting. Unless you want to spend the next million years or so meticulously sifting nano-meter by nano-meter through minute soil samples looking for gold nanoparticles.

In addition, the process relies on Raman scattering which, unlike flourescence, is not a resonant effect. This conflicts with the LRL pseudo-science that gold, silver, etc., can be detected by using specific resonant frequencies.

Perhaps you should contact Prof Klaus Rademann and put forward your theory, then we can watch while he rolls around "on the floor laughing at you, is that what you want?".

[Theseus]

I didn't start this thread to have anything to do with debate, I just wanted to bring this information to the attention of the Forum hoping to have technical input.

Randy

And technical input is what you got, from some of us here. Just because your "comprehension and acceptance filter" was set too high to recognize it as such, is not at all the fault of the contributors.

As Qiaozhi has correctly stated, you are taking the article out of context and you are attempting to find a fringe application where NONE was intended by the original author.

I'm the one that is amused (at you), because I see the similarities to a very old attempt that has been promoted many times on forums of this subject matter. That is... Credibility for the LRL/MFD sham is often promoted by saying it is related to (and works just like) Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging (NMRI) or perhaps Electromagnetic Dispersion Spectroscopy (EDS).

Nothing could be more wrong than implying such an association, when clearly no such association exists.

If the shoe fits; wear it.

[J_Player]

Perhaps there is a way...

This seems like a stretch of the imagination to me, but who knows? Esteban reports stories of a man seeing light in the night.

From what scientists and researchers have discovered, buried gold eventually corrodes, leaving a trail of ions that travel upwards in a column toward the surface of the soil. During the last 10-30cm, the ions combine to become bound with the constituents of the soil, and are no longer ions. For gold, the most abundent soil constituent which it can combine with is itself. This means that unless there is some other unlikely element such as tellurium which can form gold telluride, the gold will precipitate a small particle of gold, which may eventually grow into a lattice that forms a microparticle, or even a visible particle. Somewhere along this journey, the precipitating gold will be in the nano-sized particle range. before it reaches this size, it will not have the properties of luminessence. And after it grows bigger, it will also lose the luminessence properties that were found in the laboratory. These bound micro gold particles that reach the surface are eventually moved away from the location of the treasure by means of erosion and natural forces. But they are replenished as long as there is a trail of ions rising from the buried metal.

So where does this leave us? We are looking for a place at the surface where there is a concentration of nano-sized gold particles in enough abundance to show a visible light. This does not seem too likely to me. What about the specific frequency of laser light needed to excite the gold before it will show luminessence? Is it theoretically possible? According to Esteban, it has been observed by someone who told him he saw it.

Best wishes,
J_P

[homefire]

It's know that gold is a good reflector of IR radiation.

That is why they coat the space helmets visor with gold.

Why not just try the camera with a normal IR source.

See if you can pick out Hot Spots in a gravel bare.

A plane old Car head lamp works most well as a IR source.

If you hit them with just enough voltage to see a Red Visible glow on the Filament, You have a kick butt IR source.

I had a cheapo Russian IR Vision set I could see a hundred yard with that set up.

[Esteban]

"High purity gold reflects infrared (heat) energy almost completely, making it ideal for heat and radiation reflection. "

http://gold.yabz.com/facts.htm

In the same way, gold emits is own IR. So, to use IR for detect gold at distance is not a mistery... Maybe is better IR laser.

[Seden]

Gentlemen,Gentlemen please!

The quote done by Qiaozhi does indeed have to do with a couple methods of annealing the gold but that's not all the article puts forward. The point of the article is the discovery that gold does indeed have a photoluminescence propensity hence:
"Excitation of films with the 795 nm fundamental of a Ti:sapphire femtosecond laser produces a strong white luminescence. The analysis of the laser power dependence indicates that the gold nanoparticle emission is induced by the absorption of three NIR laser photons."
and yes here:
"Because of the transparency and reduced cell damage to human and animal tissues in the NIR spectral range, the multiphoton-induced photoluminescence of gold nanoparticles could become a powerful alternative to organic and semiconducting fluorophores in biological imaging."

Ok. "Mutiphoton-Induced Photoluminescence of gold" so it's not just another way to anneal the gold using IR as Qiaozhi quoted from the article.

Theseus, I had to virtually squeeze your head to get you to give me a technical answer even if it was just a quote from Qiaozhi. That's all I was asking as I don't claim to know it all or am I selling something. This post is about sharing information if someone has had practical experience or had studied Spectroscopy. See,that wasn't so painful was it? The dance has just begun between us so let's enjoy it shall we?

Ya'll have a nice day sir,

Randy

[Theseus]

The dance has just begun between us so let's enjoy it shall we?

Ya'll have a nice day sir,

Randy

I'm afraid my card is all filled up. Guess you'll need to find another partner.

[J_Player]

Now that we solved the problem of figuring out that Mutiphoton-Induced Photoluminescence is possible on nano-particles of gold, we have three hurdles to pass before we can make a reasonable scientific connection to the dirt glowing above buried gold.

1. The luminescence was induced by a 795 nm Ti:sapphire femtosecond laser. ie: the gold did not glow on its own, the glowing was induced by a special laser.

2. This glowing was observed on nano-particles within a specific range. Within the luminescent range nano-sized particles, the frequency must be adjusted to cause the luminescencee. But when the gold particle size is outside the luminescent range, it is no longer luminescent. ie: only certain size particle will glow when stimulated by a laser.

3. The correct frequency laser and the correct size nano-particles must be present at the location of a long-time buried gold object. if the correct laser and gold nano-particles are not there, then there will be no glowing.

This means we would go treasure hunting with the correct frequency femtosecond laser. Let's assume we have a portable 795 nm Ti:sapphire femtosecond laser like the one that worked in the laboratory. And we connect it to a 50% duty cycle 1khz supply, and we pulse it on when we want to scan a location to see if there are any glowing spots in the dirt. (It seems like this would be best done at night).

Suppose we go searching in an old field that was once a park. And suppose we find several spots that show a visible glow when we pulse the IR laser on them. So we start digging, and find several gold objects. This would prove that there are nano-particles of gold in the soil in enough abundance to show visible luminescence when the ground was pulsed with a 795 nm Ti:sapphire femtosecond laser. So what's the problem with that?
Nothing.... If the ground glows when you pulse the laser at it.

But what if the ground does not glow?
I am sure many will say the reason is because there is no gold buried there.
But suppose you find the ground does not glow over an area that has placer gold two feet below. And you confirm this by digging the gold.
Why didn't the experiment work?

An answer that comes to mind is the known ions of gold that have been studied above long-time buried gold are found in quantities of parts per billion. Sometimes as much as 10 parts per billion for large amounts of gold that have been buried a very long time, such as are found at mines. Among the gold particles that form from ions in the parts per billion range, Is it possible that only a small percentage of them are the suitable nano-particle size to have luminescence properties when zapped by the correct laser? Would it be in the parts per trillion range?

Perhaps there is just not enough of these nano-particles above a treasure to glow.

But then, If people are seeing the ground glow without even induciing the luminescence, maybe something else is causing the ground to glow.

Best wishes,
J_P