The Aurificusian Hypothesis

[Aurificus]

And, how can you spot such a small anomaly when the source energy supplied has anomalies at and around the treasure site that are hundreds of time larger?

Consider a large, wide, dark, deep, fast flowing river. We wish to find the rock that is just bigger than the others and will snag the bottom of our boat.

We could take numerous measurements of the rivers current at points above and below and all across the stream and hope to find the infintesimal change in Kilo litres/per min caused by the obstruction of the rock.

Or... we could sprinkle lots of tiny leaves on the surface upstream and look for the one that stops or circles in the "eddy" caused by the Rock.


Dont let the big stuff cloud your view of the small stuff
Aurificus

[Aurificus]

STOP PRESS NEW NEWS



AURIFICUS

[J_Player]

Consider a large, wide, dark, deep, fast flowing river. We wish to find the rock that is just bigger than the others and will snag the bottom of our boat.

We could take numerous measurements of the rivers current at points above and below and all across the stream and hope to find the infintesimal change in Kilo litres/per min caused by the obstruction of the rock.

Or... we could sprinkle lots of tiny leaves on the surface upstream and look for the one that stops or circles in the "eddy" caused by the Rock.


Dont let the big stuff cloud your view of the small stuff
Aurificus

This is precisely the problem with the theory you presented. The big stuff is clouding the view of the small stuff that the detector is looking for.

In the analogy you presented, the large rock would represent the degree of variations in the thermal energy supplied by the sun (due to shadows and surface moisture). And what we are looking for is not a large rock, but a very small pebble which is buried amongst the large rocks. ie: The shadows and damp spots in the soil cause large deviations and gradients in the solar energy supplied. The buried metal object represents only a very small fraction of a percent of the thermal gradients seen at the surface above it. In fact, any thermal gradient derived from the presence of the buried metal receives it's energy from the same non-uniform larger gradients above at the surface, after it is conducted downwards as heat. So we are basically starting with a non-uniform energy input to energize the buried metal before trying to locate it.

Since we are looking to sense a very small thermal anomaly where the buried metal object is, the problem becomes one of signal to noise ratio. In other words, what is to stop the large energy anomalies caused from shadows cast on the surface from absorbing the pulsed IR LED energy instead of the faint anomaly from a metal coin buried 10 cm below the surface? After all, the variation of thermal energy caused by the surface shadows and moisture is at least several hundreds of times stronger than the variations in thermal energy caused by a buried metal object.

Then there is still the problem of the divergence of the beam of an IR LED. Esteban did not use a collimator to focus into a narrow beam. He used a plain IR LED with the attached factory lens, which typically has a 40 degree cone of illumination. This suggests that at 10 meters, the IR LED is illuminating a spot of 6 meters diameter. A deviation in the power pulsed to the LED could be caused by absorption anywhere within that 6 meter diameter circle. If the theory presented is correct (an anomaly of thermal gradient is causing the small variation in pulsed IR LED power), then the shaded side of stones, plants, or footprints within this 6-meter circle the ground would have an influence on the LED which is hundreds of times larger than a tiny gradient from a metal object buried below the surface.

Perhaps it is time to look for a different secondary effect of buried metal object phenomenon to explain why the IR LED power would change when pointed at the treasure location?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Hi Aurificus,
The IR thermometers do not measure temperature directly. They measure IR emissions, which are converted to temperatures electronically. Thus, the instrument I used is measuring the IR emitted from whatever surface it is pointed at, within a 10 degree cone from the tip of the sensor. The point is, that the temperature varies over any stretch of landscape which has enough texture to cast a shadow. This surface temperature variation can be as much as 30 degrees Fahrenheit, or even more depending on the sun, air temperature, and wind conditions. This condition exists on nearly all ground that has shadows and that has variations in the soil moisture content. Because this condition exists, then according to your dissertation, the detector "receiver" would require "retuning" whenever you found this change more than a few degrees. (In the location where I conducted the test, this means retuning must be done at least every 8 inches for the undisturbed sand, and every foot or so in the sand that was smoothed to remove the shadows.

But what is confusing is that you are focusing on a changing thermal gradient, using IR to detect it:
To the best of my knowledge, a thermal gradient is a gradient in temperature, is it not? You say the "changing thermal gradient" suits the idea of an IR detection device, natural fit. I am wondering if you are talking about measuring the gradient in temperature or something else. Depending on the wavelength of the IR, you may be illuminating the target area with something more similar to light, or more similar to heat. If you are really talking about a thermal gradient, then I would think it is important to choose a wavelength closer to the heat radiation end of the spectrum. But if not, then I would think it is still meaningful to at least specify what transmitted frequency is responding to the presence of a buried target.

But putting aside the exact frequency of the IR LED, your theory is that the buried metal anomaly anomaly can be detected because it received heat from the sun which was transferred by conduction through the soil. According to your dissertation, the thermal energy can easily be converted to other forms of energy: "Heat is only one form of Energy and interchangable with any other energy so detection of other changing energy is quite possible." the heat supplied by the sun is converted to a different form of energy. And this transformed energy will forma an anomaly at the treasure location, which will absorb a different amount of the IR pulsed at the soil above the buried metal.

If this is correct, then let's look back at what I measured on the ground in the way of temperature (IR emissions actually, which follow closely with the temperature). There was a 30 degree Fahrenheit temperature swing in the undisturbed soil, due to shadows, and an 11 degree swing due to moisture variations below the surface. The question that comes to mind is how will these large natural variations in soil surface temperature allow a buried metal object to receive an un-skewed amount of thermal radiation from the sun to allow the pulsed IR LED to detect the converted energy within the equivalent of a few hundredths of a degree? This seems impossible, especially when the shaded areas change as the sun moves across the sky, and moves the cool spots away from the buried metal, or toward it.

The questions that keep coming to mind are: what energy are you talking about (as in what frequency is the thermal gradient from the sun transformed into that is detected by a pulsed IR LED at the treasure location?)
And, how can you spot such a small anomaly when the source energy supplied has anomalies at and around the treasure site that are hundreds of time larger?

I believe Esteban said he found targets using infrared up to 30 meters. Am I correct Esteban?
Perhaps Esteban can shed some light on the reason to do your sampling between the hours of 10 am and 2 pm. This would help greatly to explain what phenomenon is being detected.

Best wishes,
J_P

25 meters. But is associated with a magnetic loop, seems the "phenomenon" "travel" into this light and secondary system is capable to detect. But was a wire, yes a quality galvanized special wire. A beam of light acts as an antenna.

Regards

[Esteban]

This is precisely the problem with the theory you presented. The big stuff is clouding the view of the small stuff that the detector is looking for.

In the analogy you presented, the large rock would represent the degree of variations in the thermal energy supplied by the sun (due to shadows and surface moisture). And what we are looking for is not a large rock, but a very small pebble which is buried amongst the large rocks. ie: The shadows and damp spots in the soil cause large deviations and gradients in the solar energy supplied. The buried metal object represents only a very small fraction of a percent of the thermal gradients seen at the surface above it. In fact, any thermal gradient derived from the presence of the buried metal receives it's energy from the same non-uniform larger gradients above at the surface, after it is conducted downwards as heat. So we are basically starting with a non-uniform energy input to energize the buried metal before trying to detect the anomaly.

Since we are looking to sense a very small thermal anomaly where the buried metal object is, the problem becomes one of signal to noise ratio. In other words, what is to stop the large energy anomalies caused from shadows cast on the surface from absorbing the pulsed IR LED energy instead of the faint anomaly from a metal coin buried 10 cm below the surface? After all, the variation of thermal energy caused by the surface shadows and moisture is at least several hundreds of times stronger than the variations in thermal energy caused by a buried metal object.

Then there is still the problem of the divergence of the beam of an IR LED. Esteban did not use a collimator to focus into a narrow beam. He used a plain IR LED with the attached factory lens, which typically has a 40 degree cone of illumination. This suggests that at 10 meters, the IR LED is illuminating a spot of 6 meters diameter. A deviation in the signal power pulsed to the LED could be caused by absorption anywhere within that 6 meter diameter circle. If the theory presented is correct (an anomaly of thermal gradient is causing the small variation in pulsed IR LED power), then the shaded side of stones and footprints within this 6-meter circle the ground would have an influence on the LED which is hundreds of times larger than a small gradient from a metal object buried below the surface.

Perhaps it is time to look for a different secondary effect of buried metal object phenomenon to explain why the IR LED power would change when pointed at the treasure location?

Best wishes,
J_P

Don't know if the power would change when the beam is pointed at the item location, but maybe change the voltage in the secondary detector (the receiver or monitor). But this system need the adjustment of receiver very sensitive.

Regards

[Esteban]

Consider a large, wide, dark, deep, fast flowing river. We wish to find the rock that is just bigger than the others and will snag the bottom of our boat.

We could take numerous measurements of the rivers current at points above and below and all across the stream and hope to find the infintesimal change in Kilo litres/per min caused by the obstruction of the rock.

Or... we could sprinkle lots of tiny leaves on the surface upstream and look for the one that stops or circles in the "eddy" caused by the Rock.


Dont let the big stuff cloud your view of the small stuff
Aurificus

Exactly as I described some years, but my example was a brick. Alonso tell me: "In the rain you see the water flow normally by the terrain, but when collide with a brick, the original flow changes, is similar to the detection with LRL pistols". So, is a distortion of natural flow. The natural flow is magnetic field of Earth, and here is produced a distortion in site of the target and around it.

Regards

[J_Player]

Exactly as I described some years, but my example was a brick. Alonso tell me: "In the rain you see the water flow normally by the terrain, but when collide with a brick, the original flow changes, is similar to the detection with LRL pistols". So, is a distortion of natural flow. The natural flow is magnetic field of Earth, and here is produced a distortion in site of the target and around it.

Regards

Hi Esteban,
I have a few questions about the IR LED detectors you built:

1. Can you tell us if the IR LED detectors you built work with long-time buried coins, or do they work equally well with fresh buried coins?

2. What hours of the day or night did you find your best detection using the IR LED detectors you built?
Were there times of the day or night that the IR LED detector does not work adequately?

3. Do you think the IR LED detector is sensing the difference in temperature from a buried metal object, or do you think it is sensing something different, such as might be caused by an anomaly of the magnetic field, or electric field, or maybe disturbances in other energies?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Aurificus]

The natural flow is magnetic field of Earth, and here is produced a distortion in site of the target and around it.

Well,Well .. A varying magnetic field interacting with a changing electromagnetic energy potential.....sounds like something???

SOMETHING... THAT MIGHT PRODUCE A DETECTABLE RESPONSE

[Esteban]

Hi Esteban,
I have a few questions about the IR LED detectors you built:

1. Can you tell us if the IR LED detectors you built work with long-time buried coins, or do they work equally well with fresh buried coins?

2. What hours of the day or night did you find your best detection using the IR LED detectors you built?
Were there times of the day or night that the IR LED detector does not work adequately?

3. Do you think the IR LED detector is sensing the difference in temperature from a buried metal object, or do you think it is sensing something different, such as might be caused by an anomaly of the magnetic field, or electric field, or maybe disturbances in other energies?

Best wishes,
J_P

1. Never I test with fresh items. I have a big patio in when supossed through the years things has been lost. The first time I found a 5.5 compressed air rifle bullet at 2 m. I'm with a friend. We walk and obtain another persistent signal. Was a bronze coin. And similar items. As I start investigating other type of pistols I abandon it. Later I rebuild other and found round copper object and small things, as a 1.5 mm copper wire. All these detection was very good, no random here. The IR and loop was another experiment.

2. I use only at day, never I test at night. But Alonso build with IR and lenses for to use at night, because some kind of pistols has poblem at night, so the problem was "solved" using IR.

3. I think is a mixing of various of all it. I think we can't separate. There are magnetic and electric fields and difference of temperature too.

Regards

[Esteban]

Well,Well .. A varying magnetic field interacting with a changing electromagnetic energy potential.....sounds like something???

SOMETHING... THAT MIGHT PRODUCE A DETECTABLE RESPONSE

Before start searching you adjust the pistol with all gradients of energy around, in the air, magnetic fields, etc. This gradient of energy is all the voltage, include the possible interferences (but no strong). So, pistol detects the difference, this is, the metal buried for long time, wich causes the distortion. But here pistol need to work in the limit of sensibility for to catch the difference. Is not important if this add of substract energy of the pistol. If energy ups in the system, OK, no problem. If energy down, when return at preadjusted point, this "nock" the system and beeps occurs.

Regards

[Esteban]

Mr. Alonso is the inventor

Mr. Alonso is the inventor. To him my GREAT gratefulness and recognition.

[Aurificus]

See Seebeck effect

3. Do you think the IR LED detector is sensing the difference in temperature from a buried metal object, or do you think it is sensing something different, such as might be caused by an anomaly of the magnetic field, or electric field, or maybe disturbances in other energies?

Google: Seebeck effect

Aurificus

[Max]

PULSING IR LED DETECTORS - Theory & Practice

Background : IR remote sensing

Common uses currently include: Satellite weather imaging, crops and land clearing studies, monitoring river, dams & lake levels. etc, etc.

Movement sensors to operate security, lights, alarms, cameras,etc.

For less than $50 you can purchase a quite accurate, IR, remote sensing, digital pyrometer (thermometer), (pay the extra and get the one with the laser pointer).

These detection systems rely on receiving “black body” IR radiation emitted by objects.

ATTENTION: A pulsing LED detector DOES NOT use this method.

What we are attempting to detect is far more subtle and is the type of effect that is considered inconsequential noise in standard EE practice.
In fact, standard theories & practices are designed to dampen, cover-up, ignore or over-power these effects.

The LED emits energy as IR radiation.
When it contacts matter this energy can be transmitted, absorbed or reflected.
Standard theory assumes that the matter involved has a constant temperature and therefore the rate of transmission, absorption or reflection is constant.
In a real world, (the one I’m in, maybe not yours!!) matter is constantly changing
its temperature. The rate of change depends on the introduction or removal of an energy source (radiation, let’s call it ‘heat’) and the composition and physical properties of the object in question and the medium it is in.

i.e. What size is the object?, what is it made of?, what it is buried in?, how deep is it?, is heat from the sun warming it?, is it cooling down?, etc, etc, etc, etc,…….

The zone around a buried object will therfore have a thermal energy gradient, except for brief periods where equilibrium might exist. Depending on conditions the gradient could extend to the air space above a buried object ( phenomenal!)

So what?!!! The emission from an IR LED is tiny and will have a negligible effect on any of “that BS” at any sort of distance!!!!!

True…..but what if a remote energy level change has an effect on the LEDs?

An LED will have a “rise time” from the application of power to its full IR emission level. Energy is required to excite (don’t say heat) a diode each time it is triggered.
The amount of energy needed will depend on how much energy the LED has dissipated whilst switched off. If the pulse is constant the LED’s start-up power requirement will change according to how much energy it is transferring to the environment while it is emitting.

Monitoring these undoubtedly very small voltage and/or current fluctuations might best performed with a sensitive ‘amplitude’ detector or similar that is separated from the power circuit to minimise any effect on it.

In conclusion, the theory is this: The pulsed beam is a ‘detection probe’ or a ‘transmitting antenna’, the zone around the target absorbs or rejects ‘additional’ energy at a greater rate than ‘ambient’ and the response is measured as power fluctuations at the transmitter not in reflected signals from the target.

No magic, No mumbo Jumbo. Just science and physics and not letting “the big stuff over-power the small stuff”. May I have a Patent, please? Plenty granted for a lot less than that!! I’ll share it with Esteban, we’ll be rich and retire and go treasure hunting.

P.S. For practical use, the variables involving real targets are so numerous that results might be “Very Hit & Miss”. When it works, it works, when it doesn’t……..try again, under different conditions……try again…… (more system development and/or control of the variables is required)

P.P.S The concept, however, has a lot of value. This type of sensing of seemingly insignificant, but quite measurable “side effects” can be applied to many different real world problems.

P.P.P.S. My deep RESPECT to Esteban, who politely and patiently shares elements of his years of work on Remote Detection equipment. The good, the bad & the otherwise. Without his input this thread would be little more than sceptics teasing novices & stroking their own and each others……prejudices.

Cheers, Aurificus

Hi,
Congratulations! For the big pile of BS.

I think it doesn't work, and will never work in the real world, maybe yours is different.

Have any idea of what percentage of IR radiation arrives to a deep buried target ???

ZERO. The soil will dump anything your ridiculos 10mW from the led!

The LED you'll not read any measurable variation.

Follow this thought: suppose you have a 23mm diameter/4.15cm^2 area coin buried at half a meter underground... and you're 10meters far from target on the horizontal plane...

OK the half-meter means 50cm of soil above the coin...

The soil will swamp any reading... or you're talking here that a target like a coin cause if the thermal gradient is what you're looking for you must know that heath transfers are related to the MASS of objects ...so considering a deep buried small target (50cm and a coin) you're trying to let people here think that the coin retains or delivers heath to/from the soil in a way that's detectable by a simple IR LED + amplifier ! Isn't it ?

Now... the heath radiation happens from/to coin isotropically, so in all direction from/to coin vs soil , right ?

So... a coin placed at 50cm will radiate or receive heath equally from a volume of 1m^3 soil if we consider soil temperature about flat constant in the 1st meter (a good approximation in most cases during the day).

1m^3=10,000,000 cm^3

Now look at the coin that is e.g. a 23mm diameter one, 1mm thick: you'll get a volume of around 4.15 cm^3 means something 4*10^-7 order to be clear... so the coin's volume is about 4/10,000,000 the volume of soil we are talking about...

About mass... soil mass for 1m^3 vary due to soil composition/density but in organic soil (farm soil in most places) is about roughly 1200kg/m^3 so 1200Kg mass for 1m^3 and for coin, say it's silver... with density of 10490Kg/m^3 , so 10490*0.000000415= 0.00435Kg or 4.35grams

Now look at energy transfer (heath) in ideal conditions between these 2 mass... in the case the silver coin is hotter than soil around it... with a temperature difference of 20°C = 20°K....with wide approximations it's something like this:

The energy release from silver coin is due to Qc= volume_of_coin*volumetric_heat_capacity_for_silver *delta_T(°K)...

so Qc= 4.15*2.44*20= 202.52 joules

... then we suppose the soil that's 20°K lower in temperature will get that heath by conduction mostly (an approximation close to reality) and so the temperature in soil will increase , but what's that increase in °K considering all energy will be transferred with no losses and no dispersions ?

here the energy Qs=volume_of_soil*volumetric_heat_capacity_soil(si lica,water)*delta_T_soil(°K)

Qs=Qc (perfect transfer)

delta_T_soil(°K) = Qs/(volume_of_soil_volumetric_heat_capacity_soil(sili ca,water)) = 202.52/(10,000,000*2.9)= 6.98*10^-6 °K

In other words... if your soil is humid, organic and hi content silica... say it's at 30°C and the 23mm silver coin buried at 50cm reach 50°C, so with gradient of +20°C at coin, and we approximate full heat transfer between coin and soil, you'll get just about 7u°K or 7*10^6 °C variation in the considered 1m^3 soil.

GUYS !? We consider having 20°C gradient at coin soil interface and end up with 7 MICRO CELSIUS variation at soil volume... so at surface.

Can you detect 7*10^-6 °C variations with a LED diode ???

From 10meters away ???

Consider also S/N... 7uCelsius variations will be swamped out by any e.g. wind movement... that will cause the soil to cool down at really faster rate than 7uCelsius!

Consider the evaporation of trapped water in soil... will that cool the surface or not ???

It's a themodynamic-hell for you PYROMETER OR LED... OR WHATEVER!

Is that the new LRL-science-fiction!

I'm sure you didn't realize any of these fairy-tales devices... otherwise YOU MUST KNOW that's impossible detecting something this way.

On the air... of course, things are quite different... but soil it's a well known dumping filler... that's cause e.g. an atomic bomb shelter is usually underground... (not only... there are other reasons too ) the heath is dispersed by soil/water volume... will not work at ground zero just under the bomb maybe... but at few distance the soil will shield from excess heath... not like painting white your room and wear your preferite sunglasses!

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Hi,
Congratulations! For the big pile of BS.

I think it doesn't work, and will never work in the real world, maybe yours is different.

Have any idea of what percentage of IR radiation arrives to a deep buried target ???

ZERO. The soil will dump anything your ridiculos 10mW from the led!

The LED you'll not read any measurable variation.

Follow this thought: suppose you have a 23mm diameter/4.15cm^2 area coin buried at half a meter underground... and you're 10meters far from target on the horizontal plane...

OK the half-meter means 50cm of soil above the coin...

The soil will swamp any reading... or you're talking here that a target like a coin cause if the thermal gradient is what you're looking for you must know that heath transfers are related to the MASS of objects ...so considering a deep buried small target (50cm and a coin) you're trying to let people here think that the coin retains or delivers heath to/from the soil in a way that's detectable by a simple IR LED + amplifier ! Isn't it ?

Now... the heath radiation happens from/to coin isotropically, so in all direction from/to coin vs soil , right ?

So... a coin placed at 50cm will radiate or receive heath equally from a volume of 1m^3 soil if we consider soil temperature about flat constant in the 1st meter (a good approximation in most cases during the day).

1m^3=10,000,000 cm^3

Now look at the coin that is e.g. a 23mm diameter one, 1mm thick: you'll get a volume of around 4.15 cm^3 means something 4*10^-7 order to be clear... so the coin's volume is about 4/10,000,000 the volume of soil we are talking about...

About mass... soil mass for 1m^3 vary due to soil composition/density but in organic soil (farm soil in most places) is about roughly 1200kg/m^3 so 1200Kg mass for 1m^3 and for coin, say it's silver... with density of 10490Kg/m^3 , so 10490*0.000000415= 0.00435Kg or 4.35grams

Now look at energy transfer (heath) in ideal conditions between these 2 mass... in the case the silver coin is hotter than soil around it... with a temperature difference of 20°C = 20°K....with wide approximations it's something like this:

The energy release from silver coin is due to Qc= volume_of_coin*volumetric_heat_capacity_for_silver *delta_T(°K)...

so Qc= 4.15*2.44*20= 202.52 joules

... then we suppose the soil that's 20°K lower in temperature will get that heath by conduction mostly (an approximation close to reality) and so the temperature in soil will increase , but what's that increase in °K considering all energy will be transferred with no losses and no dispersions ?

here the energy Qs=volume_of_soil*volumetric_heat_capacity_soil(si lica,water)*delta_T_soil(°K)

Qs=Qc (perfect transfer)

delta_T_soil(°K) = Qs/(volume_of_soil_volumetric_heat_capacity_soil(sili ca,water)) = 202.52/(10,000,000*2.9)= 6.98*10^-6 °K

In other words... if your soil is humid, organic and hi content silica... say it's at 30°C and the 23mm silver coin buried at 50cm reach 50°C, so with gradient of +20°C at coin, and we approximate full heat transfer between coin and soil, you'll get just about 7u°K or 7*10^6 °C variation in the considered 1m^3 soil.

GUYS !? We consider having 20°C gradient at coin soil interface and end up with 7 MICRO CELSIUS variation at soil volume... so at surface.

Can you detect 7*10^-6 °C variations with a LED diode ???

From 10meters away ???

Consider also S/N... 7uCelsius variations will be swamped out by any e.g. wind movement... that will cause the soil to cool down at really faster rate than 7uCelsius!

Consider the evaporation of trapped water in soil... will that cool the surface or not ???

It's a themodynamic-hell for you PYROMETER OR LED... OR WHATEVER!

Is that the new LRL-science-fiction!

I'm sure you didn't realize any of these fairy-tales devices... otherwise YOU MUST KNOW that's impossible detecting something this way.

On the air... of course, things are quite different... but soil it's a well known dumping filler... that's cause e.g. an atomic bomb shelter is usually underground... (not only... there are other reasons too ) the heath is dispersed by soil/water volume... will not work at ground zero just under the bomb maybe... but at few distance the soil will shield from excess heath... not like painting white your room and wear your preferite sunglasses!

Kind regards,
Max

This is not problem regarding the beam is a kind of antenna. If you can transmit voice, music, etc., through an IR beam, then, you can receive the "phenomenon" or halo or "field".

Regards

[Qiaozhi]

Aurificus and Esteban are putting forward two separate theories.

Aurificus' "hypothesis" (as he calls it) is unworkable in practice, and has already been detroyed by Max.

Esteban has a different idea whereby the beam acts as an antenna that transports the "phenomenon" to the detector

Neither of these theories is scientifically plausible, but Esteban insists that his method works. Perhaps this approach needs further investigation to prove/disprove the idea.