mineoro fg/90

[Fred]

I think the videos should be released here, (i can´t see why not) but together with Geo´s ones.
So All data will be available, and everyone can make his own idea about it-and share it if they want to.

[J_Player]

At this time, I personally don't recall rendering an opinion about the validity or content of video/pics.

J_Player, I don't think nearly as much fuss would be made over seeing the resultant test videos, if that POINT had not been talked about so much prior to the tests taking place; ...right here on this forum.

Now, post testing, your explanation seems to indicate that if I (or others who for various reasons, financial and other) could not attend in person, than we should not expect to be privy to any of the results, via the viewing of the pictures and/or videos. If that fact could have been stated, pretest, then I doubt there would have been all the anticipation generated among those of us who were expecting to see the results, post testing.

Certainly, it is understood (by me at least), that observing the test first-hand would have been the ideal situation, but in lieu of that - I was expecting to see the pics/videos, since it was more or less promised by several pretest postings here.

I stand by my original questions:

1.) What is really on the tapes/pics?
2.) Why must the tapes/pics (and the results) be secreted away?
3.) Would the tapes/pics have been secreted if the test results were an overwhelming success?

Hi Theseus,
You are correct. You did not render an opinion about the validity or content of video/pics. And I agree not nearly as much fuss would be made over seeing the resultant test videos, if that POINT had not been talked about so much prior to the tests taking place; ...right here on this forum.

But you may have misunderstood the meaning of my post. It is not my contention that people who did not attend the demonstration should not be permitted to view the videos/pics. My point is those who complain about the content or validity of the test have no basis to complain if they declined to attend the demonstration and conduct their own tests to their own satisfaction (regardless of the reason why they declined). Keep in mind that Morgan did not specify this would be a test of LRLs, much less a double blind test. He said it would be a demonstration open to forum members to watch and test the LRLs with their own hands. This makes me think it is similar to the kind of demonstration you might expect to see at a metal detector shop, where you can try out the detectors with your own hands to see if you think it works and if it is suitable for your purposes. Yet we see some posts complaining it is not a particular kind of test that the reader had in mind, (and questioning the validity of his demonstrations).

My point was it appears to me that Morgan was hoping for a better reception when it came time to post his videos, and from what I read him posting, the poor reception and negative comments are what caused him to change his mind. My opinion may be incorrect, but it is what I think to be the answer to your questions. To be more specific, here are some details:

1.) What is really on the tapes/pics? Morgan no longer feels interested in showing
This cannot be known unless we see the tapes/pics. Unfortunately, they have not been released in this forum. We have a hint from Geo and Morgan that they show him demonstrating some LRLs working. And posts by others saying it does not show anything in the way of proof.
2.) Why must the tapes/pics (and the results) be secreted away?
Because Morgan changed his mind about allowing them to be released in the Remote sensing forum. I presume this is because Morgan does not want to share his videos/pics with people who do not show that they consider them to be a worthwhile demonstration, after he spent the time and money to maie it happen.
3.) Would the tapes/pics have been secreted if the test results were an overwhelming success?
In my opinion, not posting the tapes/pics had nothing to do with the test results. My feeling is they are being witheld only because Morgan and Geo did not see the respect they expected. I believe they would post what they observed regardless of the outcome, provided they found a respcectful and appreciative audience. I believe this because Geo would never falsify what he observes, and he already stated he would report his observations regardless of what was seen. I find it hard to believe that Morgan would hide results if they are not an overwhelming success either.

These are only my opinions based on what I read in this forum. I may be wrong. From what I can see, there are only a few people who influenced Morgan's decision about making his videos public. This is unfortunate for the others who did not criticize his demonstration, or expect it to be a test conducted to their standards instead of a demonstration. Maybe Morgan will reconsider making these videos available for the benefit of the majority of the readers who are politely waiting to see them, so they can know what his demonstration did show.

As we can see in Qiaozhi's post above, it is taking on tones of "Watergate". when to me it appears to be only an issue of a few posts that upset Morgan and Geo.

I still congratulate Morgan and Geo for taking the time and effort to conduct this demonstration, regardless of what criticism they may find. I would like to see the videos here. I think Morgan and Geo did an great job in their demonstrations, well worth seeing.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Theseus]

Hi Theseus,
You are correct. You did not render an opinion about the validity or content of video/pics. And I agree not nearly as much fuss would be made over seeing the resultant test videos, if that POINT had not been talked about so much prior to the tests taking place; ...right here on this forum.

<< some copy snipped >>

These are only my opinions based on what I read in this forum. I may be wrong. From what I can see, there are only a few people who influenced Morgan's decision about making his videos public. This is unfortunate for the others who did not criticize his demonstration, or expect it to be a test conducted to their standards instead of a demonstration. Maybe Morgan will reconsider making these videos available for the benefit of the majority of the readers who are politely waiting to see them, so they can know what his demonstration did show.

Best wishes,
J_P

Yes, it is indeed unfortunate for those of us who did not criticize his demonstration.

One point I would hasten to illustrate here. I think it is a little late to try and draw a clear distinction between the terms demonstration and test, if that is what you are now suggesting.

By your own pen; you used the terms rather interchangeably in your own posting:

On August 29 2009, Morgan began his live LRL demonstration to show any forum members who wish to see his LRLs performing in the field. He demonstrated several Mineoro models, a prototype pistol detector made by Alonos, a clone of the Alonso pistol that Morgan made, and several other LRLs he had in his collection. While the demonstration is open to all forum members, only Geo showed up to see the demonstrations and test the LRLs. Morgan also recruited a local skeptic to watch as well.

These demonstrations and tests are not done yet. They will continue a couple more days with videos and photos taken before they are done. Then we will see some reports and videos that can be accessed from links in this forum to see what they filmed during the demonstration and testing.

I really don't think there is any reason to now attempt a delineation between the terms demonstration and test. It is a moot point.

What I do think is important, is the assumption I and others made, and is in line with your own statement: "Then we will see some reports and videos that can be accessed from links in this forum to see what they filmed during the demonstration and testing."

[Max]

I'm authority, but you are the champion here, our boss. I decline it. We (Hung and me) are humble!

???

Maybe the PaloAlto touched your few residual neurons ?

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

I think the videos should be released here, (i can´t see why not) but together with Geo´s ones.
So All data will be available, and everyone can make his own idea about it-and share it if they want to.

Hi,
I think the same, I see no reason to hide them to the public. I also think that having Geo's stuff too is even more positive.

From my point of view it's a good idea the "premiere" stuff... with selected audience cause here on public RS there's the common ground that even very hard critics and massive jokes can take place (I'm an expert of that... btw).

In closed forum this bad behaviour is strongly reduced and people, both skeptics and belivers, are more focused on topic, on e.g. what's on the videos.

Here is a risk posting too early stuff... cause people could start wild jokes and default critics that don't help focus on what's inside these.

But I'm about sure they will be released soon also here, for anyone to see.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Yes, it is indeed unfortunate for those of us who did not criticize his demonstration.

One point I would hasten to illustrate here. I think it is a little late to try and draw a clear distinction between the terms demonstration and test, if that is what you are now suggesting.

By your own pen; you used the terms rather interchangeably in your own posting:

I really don't think there is any reason to now attempt a delineation between the terms demonstration and test. It is a moot point.

What I do think is important, is the assumption I and others made, and is in line with your own statement: "Then we will see some reports and videos that can be accessed from links in this forum to see what they filmed during the demonstration and testing."

Hi Theseus,
Yes, I did say that. It is what Morgan and Geo planned, and what I posted. I had no clue Morgan would change his mind at the last minute, or else I would not have said videos would be posted for all to see. But he did change his mind, so what I believed and posted did not occur. Possibly he will post his videos in the future. It was Morgan's decision to change his mind about making these videos public, not mine. So I can see why some people are hoping he will reconsider and post the videos for all to see. If it were my choice, I would definitely post the videos.

Maybe someday I will post videos of my own here showing LRL demonstrations. I could care less what people think, post and conclude about what they see. If they don't agree with my demonstration methods, conclusions or opinions, or want to make prejudiced comments before the videos are shown, it is ok by me. But for now we are dealing with Morgan who has decided he does not appreciate the comments he received just before he was to post his videos.

As far as it being a little late to try and draw a clear distinction between the terms demonstration and test, I doubt this is the case. As I recall, I have been saying it is a demonstration all along, open to all forum members. And the only testing I referred to was that Morgan and the attendees would be able to test them out to see if they work or not. I can never recall saying there would be any kind of scientific testing or double blind type. I thought everyone understood that. While I didn't make a point of it, I assumed that any attendees would be allowed to make any reasonable testing of the detectors to satisfy themselves to whether they are working or not, similar to how you might test out some metal detectors at a detector shop. I could forsee that any testing would be determined by the people who attended the demonstrations, so I purposely did not describe any specific preset format, only that the attendees at the demonstration would be able to test them. If you didn't understand it this way, then I am sorry I didn't get my message across to you clearly.

Also, I should mention, I have no connection to any LRL industry interests, nor am I affiliated with any hard-core skeptic groups or LRL lover groups. I maintain an independent stance so I can express my opinions without being predisposed to support any particular group. Unknown to most skeptics, I have always maintained that gold corrodes, sending ions in the soil since my first posts in Geotech many years ago. You can find my arguments with Carl-NC about this in 2006. But it is also true that I never witnessed any machine live today demonstrating an LRL working, to detect long-time buried gold, and I am not inclined to be convinced any machine can succeed until I see it working live in front of me where I can test it to my satisfaction and convince myself it works or does not work. As far as I am concerned, these are Santa Clause stories until I see something live in front of me that convinces me there is something more than fairy tales happening.

So, I couldn't go to Morgan's demonstration/tests either, but I could do the next best thing... I could watch videos of it with him and other forum members showing what I would see if I was there. This is the reason I made promotional posts for the Morgan demonstration/testing event. I wanted to see videos of his live demonstrations/testing, and I wanted others to be able to see them too. This is the first time anyone on earth made a public demonstration of LRLs working live today for any forum members who want to see. It never happened before, and is truly a remarkable event.

I think Morgan's videos are very worthwhile for people to see what he filmed. Of course these can become controversial, but the value is not for arguing purposes, but to see what he and Geo filmed. Forget the politics. Just see and observe, learn what you can. Then after seeing it, form whatever conclusions you like. You will be a better educated person after having the experience of seeing some of the best LRL films ever made in any forum -- (that is, if Morgan decides to change his mind and allow the videos to be posted here). .

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding of what I posted.
Best wishes,
J_P

ps.
If Morgan never decides to post his demonstration videos here, then Maybe someday I will host an event for people to demonstrate their LRLs working live for forum members to see and test with their own hands. I can guarantee I will post the films showing what you would see at the event, and I won't care what kind of response posts I see, so nothing will stop me from posting videos for all the curious to see.

[Morgan]

The LRL videos

Hi Theseus,
Yes, I did say that. It is what Morgan and Geo planned, and what I posted. I had no clue Morgan would change his mind at the last minute, or else I would not have said videos would be posted for all to see. But he did change his mind, so what I believed and posted did not occur. Possibly he will post his videos in the future. It was Morgan's decision to change his mind about making these videos public, not mine. So I can see why some people are hoping he will reconsider and post the videos for all to see. If it were my choice, I would definitely post the videos.

Maybe someday I will post videos of my own here showing LRL demonstrations. I could care less what people think, post and conclude about what they see. If they don't agree with my demonstration methods, conclusions or opinions, or want to make prejudiced comments before the videos are shown, it is ok by me. But for now we are dealing with Morgan who has decided he does not appreciate the comments he received just before he was to post his videos.

As far as it being a little late to try and draw a clear distinction between the terms demonstration and test, I doubt this is the case. As I recall, I have been saying it is a demonstration all along, open to all forum members. And the only testing I referred to was that Morgan and the attendees would be able to test them out to see if they work or not. I can never recall saying there would be any kind of scientific testing or double blind type. I thought everyone understood that. While I didn't make a point of it, I assumed that any attendees would be allowed to make any reasonable testing of the detectors to satisfy themselves to whether they are working or not, similar to how you might test out some metal detectors at a detector shop. I could forsee that any testing would be determined by the people who attended the demonstrations, so I purposely did not describe any specific preset format, only that the attendees at the demonstration would be able to test them. If you didn't understand it this way, then I am sorry I didn't get my message across to you clearly.

Also, I should mention, I have no connection to any LRL industry interests, nor am I affiliated with any hard-core skeptic groups or LRL lover groups. I maintain an independent stance so I can express my opinions without being predisposed to support any particular group. Unknown to most skeptics, I have always maintained that gold corrodes, sending ions in the soil from since my first post in Geotech many years ago. But it is also true that I never witnessed any machine live today demonstrating an LRL working, to detect any long-time buried gold, and I am not inclined to be convinced any machine can succeed until I see it working live in front of me where I can test it to my satisfaction to convince myself it works or does not work. As far as I am concerned, they are Santa Clause stories until I see something live in front of me that convinces me there is something more than fairy tales happening.

Well, I couldn't go to Morgan's demonstration/tests either, but I could do the next best thing... I could watch videos of it with him and other forum members showing what I would can be seen if I was there. This is the reason I made promotional posts for the Morgan demonstration/testing event. I wanted to see his live demonstrations/testing, and I wanted others to be able to see it too. This is the first time anyone on earth made a public demonstration of LRLs working live today for any forum members who want to see. It never happened before, and is truly a remarkable event.

I think Morgan's videos are very worthwhile for people to see what he filmed. Of course these can become controversial, but the value is not for arguing purposes, but to see what he and Geo filmed, and forget the politics. Just see and observe, learn what you can. Then after seeing it, form whatever conclusions you like. You will be a better educated person after having the experience of seeing some of the best LRL films ever made in any forum -- (If Morgan decides to change his mind and allow the videos to be posted here). .

I hope this clears up nay misunderstanding of what I posted.
Best wishes,
J_P

If Morgan never decides to post his demonstration videos, then Maybe someday I will host an event for people to demonstrate their LRLs working live for forum members to see and test with their own hands. I can guarantee I won't care what kind of response posts I see, so nothing will stop me from posting videos for all the curious to see.

Hi

For me no problem to put public this LRL videos.
I not use any kind of magic
My mind is free,my presence here is not to deceive the forum members,all the tests show only that PHENOMENON is REAL.

Regards

[J_Player]

Hi

For me no problem to put public this LRL videos.
I not use any kind of magic
My mind is free,my presence here is not to deceive the forum members,all the tests show only that PHENOMENON is REAL.

Regards

Hi Morgan,
I know you have no motive to decieve anyone. You only want to show what you discovered for the Alonso PD and other LRLs. You have made some truly remarkable videos that should be seen by all the curious people who want to know what you and Geo saw. I congratulate you for the effort you put into this event which I have never seen happen anywhere on earth before. Many thanks to you and Geo for your expense and time devoted to this effort. I will look forward to seeing your videos in this forum as soon as they can shown for all to see.



Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

I suggest also the debate from there to be reposted here. I dont see a reason why not to repost here?
Also i not see reason for all that muss about videos.
Those are made purposelly to be posted here, so why those are not already here!?
My remarks on PD demonstration offended Morgan. Why? I am not obligated to like what i saw on videos. I am not obligated to say something i dont really mean. I see to much fishy moments and lacks on those videos and therefore i am ready to say that in public.
And for the end; videos presents pure demonstration - not testing.
Wait and see....
Regards!

[Theseus]

I think I understand your postings, J_P.

In regards to....

J_Player said; "Unknown to most skeptics, I have always maintained that gold corrodes, sending ions in the soil since my first posts in Geotech many years ago."

I am also of the opinion that noble metals enter into a kind of transfer with less noble metals, in a suitable electrolyte (perhaps like moist soil). The transfer is probably quite minute in strength and could involve ions, cations, etc. I do not, however, subscribe to the idea these charged particles somehow leave the confines of the electrolyte (soil) and congregate as a cloud or field above or adjacent to a deposit of noble metal. Hence, that leaves me extremely skeptical of any LRL device based on the detection of free floating ions.

Thus, my interest in seeing the videos from the Geo/Morgan test/demo.

[Fred]

About Morgan´s videos:
LRL has been discussed here for YEARS.
And for the FIRST TIME we have someone who spend the time and accept to post videos, with no comercial interest.
I must applaude this.

[ivconic]

I think I understand your postings, J_P.

In regards to....

J_Player said; "Unknown to most skeptics, I have always maintained that gold corrodes, sending ions in the soil since my first posts in Geotech many years ago."

I am also of the opinion that noble metals enter into a kind of transfer with less noble metals, in a suitable electrolyte (perhaps like moist soil). The transfer is probably quite minute in strength and could involve ions, cations, etc. I do not, however, subscribe to the idea these charged particles somehow leave the confines of the electrolyte (soil) and congregate as a cloud or field above or adjacent to a deposit of noble metal. Hence, that leaves me extremely skeptical of any LRL device based on the detection of free floating ions.

Thus, my interest in seeing the videos from the Geo/Morgan test/demo.

At least that is easy to check....with any ordinary ion detector.
Dont waste your time - already checked! No ion clouds in such conditions, at all! Bogus theory!

[Fred]

At least that is easy to check....with any ordinary ion detector.
Dont waste your time - already checked! No ion clouds in such conditions, at all! Bogus theory!

I think we all agree with that :
" I do not, however, subscribe to the idea these charged particles somehow leave the confines of the electrolyte (soil)..."

[J_Player]

I think I understand your postings, J_P.

In regards to....

J_Player said; "Unknown to most skeptics, I have always maintained that gold corrodes, sending ions in the soil since my first posts in Geotech many years ago."

I am also of the opinion that noble metals enter into a kind of transfer with less noble metals, in a suitable electrolyte (perhaps like moist soil). The transfer is probably quite minute in strength and could involve ions, cations, etc. I do not, however, subscribe to the idea these charged particles somehow leave the confines of the electrolyte (soil) and congregate as a cloud or field above or adjacent to a deposit of noble metal. Hence, that leaves me extremely skeptical of any LRL device based on the detection of free floating ions.

Thus, my interest in seeing the videos from the Geo/Morgan test/demo.

Hahahaaaaaa...
Cloud of ions hovering conveniently in the air above treasure so any ion detector will locate buried metal? Anybody who believes this must be retarded. Forget that it has been proved repeatedly with drift tubes and other ion detectors that these don't exist --- common sense tells us that the slightest wind would blow any alleged "gold ion cloud" away from the treasure area.

I am impressed that Alonso and Damasio concluded there is a column of ions above long-time buried metals, because this has been confirmed by countless scientifically conducted tests. But I think they formed a wrong conclusion when they published that the column of gold ions continues 7.2 feet above the ground.

My speculation is they used instruments to measure electrical charge fields (or other fields) in the air, and found somewhat consistent readings when their instruments were pointed in a direction up to 7.2 feet above a buried treasure. I have no idea what they were actually measuring, but I can't believe it was a cloud of gold ions. There can be many secondary geophysical effects above buried metals that might be measurable with suitable instruments. Maybe they measured something and erroneously concluded it was the same gold ions they knew were in the soil. The question that remains in my mind is: If they did not detect gold ions, then what did they find that can be detected 7.2 feet above a long time buried metal object?

The most obvious answer that comes to mind is a complex chain of interdependent mechanisms which would cause a large anomaly in the atmospheric charge gradient above long time buried metals. But this answer depends on a lot of hypothetical conditions to be met, which have never been tested. So my answer is I don't know what they detected, only that they reported it continues 7.2 feet above the ground where a buried metal object is buried.

This is part of the reason why I like to see videos and live demonstrations of LRLs working. If there is an LRL that can be shown to work consistently, then it can be used as a test instrument to explore the strange findings posted on the Mineoro website, and will maybe uncover the mystery of what this 7.2 feet in the air detection is all about. Of course, maybe it will be found that there is nothing to be detected 7.2 feet above buried metal...

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

I think we all agree with that :
" I do not, however, subscribe to the idea these charged particles somehow leave the confines of the electrolyte (soil)..."

Of course not!
Scientists have made tests which show that metal ions can leave buried metal particles and rise in the soil until they reach 10-30 cm below the surface. At this depth, they become bound with other elements in the soil to become compounds which are no longer ions. Then these metal compounds stay where they are, or are eroded away. (Or they may be excavated away by someone digging for a treasure).

Best wishes,
J_P