In my system, in the radio...

[Esteban]

Magic of course

Also the round of the Earth was magic for long time, but not for a few...

[Esteban]

...what causes an off-resonance metal detector to signal when it is in the vicinity and range of a buried metal but not near the ground?

Not what you think.

More what you think, but supported by radio receiver, 2 detectors in one!

[Esteban]

You are asking why we don't build an FM demodulator to see if we can find a phase shift from an IR LED, and use this demodulator to prove whether Esteban received a phase shift in the signal he received in his FM broadcast receiver. An FM demodulator is a good circuit to use for demodulating a variation in frequency in a signal. In an FM broadcast receiver the demodulator is demodulating RF signals in the 100 MHZ region. Not IR light signals. Furthermore, an FM demodulator demodulates fluctuations in frequency, not phase shifts. If we were to build a circuit that demodulates IR light as you suggest, then we would not be testing to see whether Esteban's FM broadcast receiver RF is picking up a phase shift in the 100 MHZ RF region, as he claims. We would be testing to see if the frequency of changes in the circuitry of a 400 HZ square wave that interrupts power to an IR LED.

This sounds like another attempt to avoid the real proof of demonstrating whether Esteban has published misinformation or not. It is not necessary to build a demodulator circuit to test Esteban's claims. He made only two claims that he refuses to make a simple test to prove:

1. He detected the phase shift
2. The acoustic microphone detecting the metal vibrating under a chopped IR light source he posted is exactly the same as what he did more than 20 years ago with his FM radio

Why should any skeptic build a special 400 hz demodulator circuit when it does not test whether these claims are true? Isn't the real test to simply shine a 400 Hz pulsed IR led over the place on the ground where there is buried metal and check the signal received at an FM broadcast receiver to see if there is a phase shift in either the RF or AF section? Isn't that the real test to see if there is a phase shift as Esteban claims he heard from his pocket radio receiver?

And to check if shining an IR LED causes an acoustic vibration that can be heard with a microphone, wouldn't we put a piece of metal in a clear container that has a microphone in it, then cover it with dirt so it is buried while we shine the IR LED above the buried target to see if we hear a sound from the microphone through an audio amp?

The reason why most skeptics here do not make these tests is because no skeptic has ever been able to build a circuit that Esteban claims works, due to the fact he keeps his circuits secret. He will not tell the component values and detail needed to make an exact copy of his IR detector so another independent tester can build it and test it to see if it works as he claims or not. In the only case I can think of where Esteban gave a complete circuit, everyone who built it found that it does not work.

Esteban continues to insist the schematic he posted to build the "Zahori" long range detector works after everyone who built it says is does not work. Even non-skeptics say it does not work, because some missing circuit sections must be added before it can be made to work. So Esteban has established himself as a person who distributes misinformation about how LRLs work as well as expecting people to believe him without allowing others to duplicate his test apparatus to see for themselves whether it works or not. And based on our experience of the one exception when we did build the LRL design he posted, I believe he would tell us all of our failed attempts to duplicate his observations of a phase shift or hear buried metal vibrating from sweeping an IR LED over it are wrong because it works just fine for him, just like he claims the Zahori detector works just fine for him. Even when we built it and found it does not.

But, you know all this very well. You come here asking people to build circuits that do not prove whether we are getting more misinformation from Esteban... for what purpose? Aren't you already convinced there is a phase shift based on Esteban's claim that he refuses to prove? Aren't you already convinced an IR swept over the ground where metal is buried will cause it to vibrate to make a sound you can hear with a microphone at the metal?

Why do you want skeptics to attempt to build a circuit that does not prove these claims are true? Is it your intent use the false test to help spread misinformation?

Best wishes,
J_P

Wasting much "ink". Regarding Zahori, the people build not under my sugerences, many people uses the keys, potentiometers, etc., and this causes confusions. The problem is that many argue unnecessarily and do not work. I don't use microphone, but I can use in other system, no for infrared. Many people build, for example, the Delta Pulse, the Tesoro, etc., and doesn't work for them! If work, work very bad! I can't make miracles, or yes? Misinformation: I never said that the IR make vibrate the buried item (but can be possible). I said that the buried items vibrates in specific signatures (maybe very constant or not, remember that alloys can be different than pure metal).

[J_Player]

Wasting much "ink". Regarding Zahori, the people build not under my sugerences, many people uses the keys, potentiometers, etc., and this causes confusions. The problem is that many argue unnecessarily and do not work. I don't use microphone, but I can use in other system, no for infrared. Many people build, for example, the Delta Pulse, the Tesoro, etc., and doesn't work for them! If work, work very bad! I can't make miracles, or yes? Misinformation: I never said that the IR make vibrate the buried item (but can be possible). I said that the buried items vibrates in specific signatures (maybe very constant or not, remember that alloys can be different than pure metal).

Hi Esteban,
What you claimed in this thread has nothing to do with the Zahori, other than there are secret circuits involved.

The claims you make here are:
1.You detected the phase shift
2. The acoustic microphone detecting metal vibrating under a chopped IR light source is exactly the same as what you did more than 20 years ago with an FM radio

You are making false claims. They are simple to prove.
All you need is a microphone and an audio amp. But you refuse to show proof.
You expect us to accept substitute tests that do not prove whether your claims are true.

You were wrong, and you posted misinformation. Simple as that.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Hi Esteban,
What you claimed in this thread has nothing to do with the Zahori, other than there are secret circuits involved.

The claims you make here are:
1.You detected the phase shift
2. The acoustic microphone detecting metal vibrating under a chopped IR light source is exactly the same as what you did more than 20 years ago with an FM radio

You are making false claims. They are simple to prove.
All you need is a microphone and an audio amp. But you refuse to show proof.
You expect us to accept substitute tests that do not prove whether your claims are true.

You were wrong, and you posted misinformation. Simple as that.

Best wishes,
J_P

Because you name Zahori...:

"In the only exception I can think of where Esteban gave a complete circuit, the people who built it found that it does not work. Esteban continues to insist the schematic he posted to build the "Zahori" long range detector works after people who built it say is does not work. Even non-skeptics say it does not work, because a secret missing circuit section must be added before it can be made to work. Even after the repeated failure reports from those who built the Zahori, Esteban told us we were wrong, and it works without modifications."

The both are spectroscopy, one by microphone and in my system via changes in the audio of the receiver. But the both is via the incisive IR light. My misinformation is a very valuable info. EXTREMELY! I asure you!

[J_Player]

...The both are spectroscopy, one by microphone and in my system via changes in the audio of the receiver. But the both is via the incisive IR light. My misinformation is a very valuable info. EXTREMELY! I asure you!

Then why can't you prove this is true with a microphone?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Then why can't you prove this is true with a microphone?

Best wishes,
J_P

The writer of the scientific paper must prove it. I refer my experiments. I'll re-starts it, because in the past I use simple methods, for example, don't use variable duty cycle for the IR led. Also today I have IR leds with incorporated lenses wich light travel 100 m or more.

[J_Player]

The writer of the scientific paper must prove it. I refer my experiments. I'll re-starts it, because in the past I use simple methods, for example, don't use variable duty cycle for the IR led. Also today I have IR leds with incorporated lenses wich light travel 100 m or more.

What!!!?

You are trying to switch the test again?

You claimed "Exactly as I made with a FM radio since more than 20 years ago!"
...without using 100m LEDS or variable duty cycle circuits!

Isn't it possible there are no sounds to be heard from a microphone when you use the simple IR LED you claimed causes acoustic vibration sounds like your diagram shows?


Sweeping the IR LED you used does not cause buried metal to vibrate to make an audio sound in a microphone.
Acoustic vibration cannot not heard from a microphone when done "Exactly as you made"
The microphone sound can only be heard when you shine a chopped IR light onto the target...
not when the target is buried where the IR radiation cannot reach it.

I think you were wrong.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Astrodetect]

Hi Jplayer and others
I am in no way trying to give out misinformation to anybody,but I highly respect Esteban and his experiences in LR metal detection. As I understand it we do not know many things that he does because we have not experimented with these systems.
But if you attack Esteban with accusations instead of giving respect for his help here, then why should he give out information??????
Esteban keep up the good work...

[J_Player]

Hi Jplayer and others
I am in no way trying to give out misinformation to anybody,but I highly respect Esteban and his experiences in LR metal detection. As I understand it we do not know many things that he does because we have not experimented with these systems.
But if you attack Esteban with accusations instead of giving respect for his help here, then why should he give out information??????
Esteban keep up the good work...

Hi Astrodetect,

I also consider Esteban to be a great experimenter and innovator with experimental methods to locate metals. He deserves all the respect that comes with his years of experience and dedication to these studies.

My accusations are not intended to show disrespect, but to point out that he is using flawed logic to arrive at conclusions based on speculative thoughts rather than data that can be proven to be true. And he is publishing his speculations as if they were facts. There are no facts to support the two claims he made, and there will not be any facts until the speculations are verified to be true or not. If we look into the facts concerning metals vibrating under a chopped IR source, we find that Alaxender Graham Bell discovered thin metal disks emit a sound you can hear when place under sunlight that is interrupted rapidly, and this discovery was later developed into IR and UV PAS methods we see today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoacoustic_spectroscopy

Sure, I would wonder if PAS is related to what Esteban observed on his FM receiver, until I realized the principle is not the same when the path of the light is blocked. Then I would look for other reasons why the sound is changing in the FM receiver.

But when we see a post stating "Exactly as I made with a FM radio since more than 20 years ago!", it causes people to learn false data in the Geotech forums. Many readers visit this forum to learn the best of knowledge from experts who know what they are talking about, because they don't understand the science behind it, or don't have time to check the sources. Isn't believing false premises the point where a person stops looking at science and starts believing in pseudo-science?

In this case Esteban is wrong. Unless readers have another opinion to read that shows them why they shouldn't believe it, they may even waste time and money on equipment that is claimed to "hear acoustical sounds from buried metal".

Carl was wise when he placed a rule for this forum stating "Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged". His purpose was to put some kind of control so people who read his forum will be able to see both sides of any debatable topic. In this case it allows readers to see an alternative to the notion that shining an IR LED on the dirt will make buried metals begin to vibrate and make sounds you can hear.

I have great respect for the years of dedication and experimenting Esteban has done. And I like to read his posts showing his latest experiments. I only point out he is posting his speculations as if they are facts, when they are not. And that this sloppy chain of logic is a sure way to be posting false information.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Also the round of the Earth was magic for long time, but not for a few...

...Until they where proved to be wrong.

Esteban did you realise that all your experiments are random-beeping devices? Always tuned to the edge of instability.

[Theseus]

...Until they where proved to be wrong.

Esteban did you realise that all your experiments are random-beeping devices? Always tuned to the edge of instability.

I think several of us have made that same point in previous postings.

Any time high sensitivity amplifiers, BFO oscillators or circuits of any kind are tuned to the very edge of instability; and then these same circuits are moved around in various contortions, and in proximity to sought after targets, there will always be resultant subtle changes that will touch off the circuit towards beeping (or not beeping).

Trying to purpose theories of operation or prove ideas from ANY experiment involving these types of circuits is fool-hearty at best, and in general will categorically result in the experimenter merely chasing their tail. In other words, no clear result or conclusion can ever be sustained.

This type of experimentation is really not unlike holding an ordinary dowsing rod at the "ready" position, which is essentially a very precarious balancing routine between reacting to gravity and not reacting to gravity. The slightest little twitch or movement from the operator's hand, and the rod will swing in response to the ideomotor input, and indicate a direction or "lock" in congress with the operator's own intuition, or wish.

[Esteban]

What!!!?

You are trying to switch the test again?

You claimed "Exactly as I made with a FM radio since more than 20 years ago!"
...without using 100m LEDS or variable duty cycle circuits!

Isn't it possible there are no sounds to be heard from a microphone when you use the simple IR LED you claimed causes acoustic vibration sounds like your diagram shows?


Sweeping the IR LED you used does not cause buried metal to vibrate to make an audio sound in a microphone.
Acoustic vibration cannot not heard from a microphone when done "Exactly as you made"
The microphone sound can only be heard when you shine a chopped IR light onto the target...
not when the target is buried where the IR radiation cannot reach it.

I think you were wrong.

Best wishes,
J_P

In the past, I don't use duty cycle control, don't use powerfull leds (or leds with lenses). Today I wish to use more complete parafernalia.

And I wish to be more clear, idiom can be a problem: I don't use microphone, but, of course, in the audio (in radio) is the detection. I'm not wrong, sorry to contradict you... Exactly is to use the audio variation for to detect the buried metal. I don't said that I make vibrate the matter with IR (but maybe is possible, don't know). But the IR detect the phenomenon causes by metal buried many years. If you can't found literature about it, I'm a person who post here literature about it... maybe in bad English. Take it or leave.

[J_Player]

In the past, I don't use duty cycle control, don't use powerfull leds (or leds with lenses). Today I wish to use more complete parafernalia.

And I wish to be more clear, idiom can be a problem: I don't use microphone, but, of course, in the audio (in radio) is the detection. I'm not wrong, sorry to contradict you...

What you posted here was wrong.
You posted that the IR LED and FM receiver you used more than 20 years ago is exactly the same as the acoustic microphone listening to sounds coming from a metal target vibrating. Your followup posts confirmed you were referring to your conclusion that the buried metal is vibrating because of the IR LED you were shining at the dirt where the metal was buried.

Of course you want to use different equipment than you said was exactly the same. If you use exactly the same equipment, it will prove there is no sound coming from a microphone placed at the buried metal! You cannot prove the buried metal is vibrating to make an acoustic sound with an FM broadcast receiver. You need a microphone to prove it is vibrating. You know that, but now you are trying to change the test so there will be no evidence seen that proves you were wrong!

You also said there was a phase shift. There was not! You cannot prove that by changing to different equipment. Only with the equipment you said was exactly the same more than 20 years ago. Are you looking for a chance to build a circuit that produces phase shift hidden in your new design?

You cannot prove it exactly as you did more than 20 years ago because it is not true. You were wrong. Simple as that.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

What you posted here was wrong.
You posted that the IR LED and FM receiver you used more than 20 years ago is exactly the same as the acoustic microphone listening to sounds coming from a metal target vibrating.

Of course you want to use different equipment than you said was exactly the same. If you use exactly the same equipment, it will prove there is no sound coming from a microphone placed at the buried metal!

You also said there was a phase shift. There was not! You cannot prove that by changing to different equipment. Only with the equipment you said was exactly the same more than 20 years ago. Are you looking for a chance to build a circuit that produces phase shift hidden in your new design?

You cannot prove it exactly as you did more than 20 years ago because it is not true. You were wrong. Simple as that.

Best wishes,
J_P

OK, I'm wrong... but I obtain very good results...