In my system, in the radio...

[J_Player]

OK, I'm wrong... but I obtain very good results...

Yes,
The results you reported are very good!

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

...Until they where proved to be wrong.

Esteban did you realise that all your experiments are random-beeping devices? Always tuned to the edge of instability.

Do you see the video with red absorptive pistol in action? Do you see random, even if I put on soil or move violently...? With dedication and the use of other system I achieve great stability with sensibility.

[Theseus]

....But the IR detect the phenomenon causes by metal buried many years.....

Now you are back to claiming the IR (beam?) is detecting the phenomenon.

Wouldn't it be prudent to accurately identify and define this all encompassing and wonderful phenomenon; BEFORE you go about building detectors and receivers and reporting glorious results?

Without a more clear understanding of the phenomenon, you and the ones you are attempting to entice to follow in your footsteps, are destined to continually chase an illusion without any hope of reaching a clear conclusion or collaboration from your peers. What a waste of time (and I suppose money).

[Qiaozhi]

I don't think Esteban is claiming that the IR beam excites the soil in any way. From his description I think he believes the beam acts like a probe, and the PHENOMENON somehow modulates the beam, transporting the signal back to the detector. The idea appears to be similar to a BFO, but in the infra-red.

Whether this represents a viable method for treasure hunting is another question, but that seems to be the theory.

[J_Player]

I don't think Esteban is claiming that the IR beam excites the soil in any way. From his description I think he believes the beam acts like a probe, and the PHENOMENON somehow modulates the beam, transporting the signal back to the detector. The idea appears to be similar to a BFO, but in the infra-red.

Whether this represents a viable method for treasure hunting is another question, but that seems to be the theory.

Hi Qiaozhi,
That's an interesting concept. How does the FM broadcast receiver fit into the IR beam modulation?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Now you are back to claiming the IR (beam?) is detecting the phenomenon.

Wouldn't it be prudent to accurately identify and define this all encompassing and wonderful phenomenon; BEFORE you go about building detectors and receivers and reporting glorious results?

Without a more clear understanding of the phenomenon, you and the ones you are attempting to entice to follow in your footsteps, are destined to continually chase an illusion without any hope of reaching a clear conclusion or collaboration from your peers. What a waste of time (and I suppose money).

Is not a new "claim". Years ago I post about that the IR detect the "phenomenon" created by bronze, copper, gold, silver, nickel coins and alloys of these. A small bullet air rifle 5.5 mm is only detectable at short range and with few beeps. I don't waste money in it. A Chinese radio here cost US$ 2 and other thinks the same. I waste some time and money, but obtain the results even if I don't know the real causes of the "phenomenon". Is not an illusion, is a fact as the light of the Sun. Why glorious results? I learn it of other man, so the "glory" is for him, not for me. Just I report experiments done... Everybody waste a X quantity of money in experiments. For me is not a waste of time and money.

[Esteban]

I don't think Esteban is claiming that the IR beam excites the soil in any way. From his description I think he believes the beam acts like a probe, and the PHENOMENON somehow modulates the beam, transporting the signal back to the detector. The idea appears to be similar to a BFO, but in the infra-red.

Whether this represents a viable method for treasure hunting is another question, but that seems to be the theory.

Yes, is a TX and RX. And maybe acts as a BFO too.

[Theseus]

Is not a new "claim". Years ago I post about that the IR detect the "phenomenon" created by bronze, copper, gold, silver, nickel coins and alloys of these. A small bullet air rifle 5.5 mm is only detectable at short range and with few beeps. I don't waste money in it. A Chinese radio here cost US$ 2 and other thinks the same. I waste some time and money, but obtain the results even if I don't know the real causes of the "phenomenon". Is not an illusion, is a fact as the light of the Sun. Why glorious results? I learn it of other man, so the "glory" is for him, not for me. Just I report experiments done... Everybody waste a X quantity of money in experiments. For me is not a waste of time and money.

Me thinks you missed the point!

It does not matter if you waste $2 or $20,000 on experiments and equipment. If you have not identified the parameters and characteristics of your phenomenon, then any results you might report are of no real use or importance to anyone but yourself.

If in fact your phenomenon could be experienced by more than just yourself (in validated experiments), would it not have a better chance of being developed into a viable technology?

What exactly are your reasons for posting claimed results, with devices and contraptions that only you can boast results from?

[hung]

Is not a new "claim". Years ago I post about that the IR detect the "phenomenon" created by bronze, copper, gold, silver, nickel coins and alloys of these. A small bullet air rifle 5.5 mm is only detectable at short range and with few beeps. I don't waste money in it. A Chinese radio here cost US$ 2 and other thinks the same. I waste some time and money, but obtain the results even if I don't know the real causes of the "phenomenon". Is not an illusion, is a fact as the light of the Sun. Why glorious results? I learn it of other man, so the "glory" is for him, not for me. Just I report experiments done... Everybody waste a X quantity of money in experiments. For me is not a waste of time and money.

Hey Esteban, your song and dance teasing tactic driving the mambo boys here crazy into working LRL desperation is fascinating...
I do admire your patience.


And since we are all in this same 'signal line' ... Hey, I would like to wish you, the mambo boys, and all here at the Remote Sensing forum a Merry, wonderful Xmas and naturally a great new year.

May peace guide men, may fraternity be among us not only this time of year but along our whole lives and may we don't forget that we are in this planet to help our brothers, feed the poor and confort the best we can the ones who suffer.

Merry Xmas to you and everybody.
PS. Hope the toroid get to your address before new year's time.

[J_Player]

Me thinks you missed the point

It does not matter if you waste $2 or $20,000 on experiments and equipment. If you have not identified the parameters and characteristics of your phenomenon, then any results you might report are of no real use or importance to anyone but yourself.
If in fact your phenomenon could be experienced by more than just yourself (in validated experiments), would it not have a better chance of being developed into a viable technology?

What exactly are your reasons for posting claimed results, with devices and contraptions that only you can boast results from?

Hi Theseus,

According to Esteban we have missed his point, not the other way around.

To start with, Esteban already stated his reason for posting his claimed results: "Just I wish to explain that many things made of other in the past, today is "discovered", this is, re-discovered with implementation of modern equipment".

He is referring, of course to how his method of hearing a change in the sound of an FM radio when he shined his IR LED beam at the dirt is the same as the IR PAS method to hear metals vibrate with a microphone he posted . ...Only he used an FM pocket radio to hear the metal vibrate instead of a microphone.

Did Esteban get it right?
Is this a case where Esteban found a new way to implement the PAS principle?

Esteban never demonsrated he found an alternate method to detect vibrating metals. This is only a speculative conclusion he states as being a fact instead of a speculation. Same as he speculates it is phase shift he sensed rather than checking to see if it is a fact. Let's look at what he observed, not what he speculated:
His observation was "the sound changed in the FM receiver" when he scanned his IR beam over an area where metal is buried a long time.

How does this demonstrate the metal is making mechanical vibrations, to allow him to hear it vibrate on an FM receiver? I think If he is hearing a change in the sound on an FM radio, the cause lies elsewhere... not from the metal beginning to vibrate when he shines the IR LED its direction. Shining an IR LED at the dirt above buried metal does not cause it to make audible mechanical vibrations that create a phase shift to the signal received on an FM radio. If this were truly an implementation of the PAS effect, then anyone could shine a 400 hz square wave powered IR LED over a buried coin and microphone to hear it vibrating.

So we see the concept Esteban posts is not correct. He did not discover the PAS principles he posted, using an FM radio instead of a microphone 20 years ago. He only speculates he rediscovered it with his FM radio, which can be shown to be an erroneous speculation by using an IR LED and a microphone to check a buried coin.


But your question is about the use and importance of his experiments. Esteban says he is not looking for glory: "Just I wish to explain that many things made of other in the past, today is "discovered", this is, re-discovered with implementation of modern equipment".

So Esteban's motive is not glory, only to explain that he is re-implementing past technology with modern equipment. It is interesting he does not provide some simple circuitry we can try to hear for ourselves the sound of the buried metal vibrating to make the FM radio sounds change. Since he is not here to harvest glory, then checking these simple devices would not be a concern if nobody could get them to demonstrate the PAS principle working in his detectors.

I guess if nobody is given an opportunity to check to see how this stuff really works, the reports we hear can only serve to direct glory to Esteban from the people who believe is speculations are facts.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Do you see the video with red absorptive pistol in action? Do you see random, even if I put on soil or move violently...? With dedication and the use of other system I achieve great stability with sensibility.

what video ? and what was detected ??

[Seden]

Are we all THAT lazy?!!

C'mon guy's this isn't rocket science that we can't get off our easy chairs and duplicate this simple test. This is what bothers me about this and other threads. Going on and on everyone theorizing whether this circuit or that works without bothering to test it for ourselves and THEN we would have the right to say it doesn't work.
I will step up to the plate with my 820nm 10mw laser (oh my I'm not using a standard red led-doesn't change anything folks) modulate it with a 400hz square wave and get back to the group.

I too thank Esteban for his patience although I don't know why he bothers with people who refuse to put out the effort to replicate what he presents,I sure wouldn't-screw it.

Randy

[J_Player]

C'mon guy's this isn't rocket science that we can't get off our easy chairs and duplicate this simple test. This is what bothers me about this and other threads. Going on and on everyone theorizing whether this circuit or that works without bothering to test it for ourselves and THEN we would have the right to say it doesn't work.
I will step up to the plate with my 820nm 10mw laser (oh my I'm not using a standard red led-doesn't change anything folks) modulate it with a 400hz square wave and get back to the group.

I too thank Esteban for his patience although I don't know why he bothers with people who refuse to put out the effort to replicate what he presents,I sure wouldn't-screw it.

Randy

Hi Seden,
None of us can replicate what Esteban presents, because the IR LED circuit Esteban used is a secret. Any replication we make can be said to be using the wrong IR LED, or wrong pulsing circuit, or wrong configuration if we don't observe the buried metal is vibrating and causing a phase shift as Esteban claims it does. (Remember the Zahori tests where Esteban claims skeptics failed because they did not use the exact same circuit as he used? ...added pot adjustments invalidated it!)

Of course you will be able to show that a chopped IR laser beam directed at the surface of a metal plate causes it to vibrate as is done in ordinary PAS tests. You will be able to prove this with a microphone. I know you won't "screw it". And you will also show what happens when you bury the plate under a few inches of dirt and shine the IR laser at an angle like Esteban claims causes the response.

You will provide good proof to show whether the photoacoustic effect is causing buried metal to vibrate as it does for metal that has chopped IR striking directly on it above the surface. And you will show us any phase shift too, right?

Thank you for taking the time for this testing,
J_P

[Seden]

Loose the photoacoustic effect for now

J_Player,

For now drop the obsession with the photoacoustic effect. Actually yes I will share my results with the group as you have been doing with the RangerTell so to answer your question the reply would be 'Damn straight Skippy!'.

Look J_Player you've been a pretty fair in your comments up until recently. Maybe you're getting burnt out on all this which I don't blame you. If you notice there are large gaps in time when you don't see my posting and this is why. This particular experiment of Estebans requires little effort on either of our parts so I don't mind as I have my own projects that I'm working on as the rest of the group does. I just get so tired of the bantering back and forth of pure theory without anyone bothering to test it for themselves. You are familiar with the old saying about opinions. It reminds me of when I used to work at the Hughes Aircraft Missile research Centre,you'd get these authoritative arrogant know it all's who would love to claim to know better than anyone else and enjoyed correcting their fellow co-worker in front of others-I'm sick of it.

It get's down to put up or shut up in the end-otherwise it's a chasing of the wind for people who have nothing better to do. Yeah it's easy,just keep the soldering iron off and type. This is said in general not to you J_Player as I have nothing against you.

Randy

By the way group, please take note that I sign my first name so please USE it when you reply.

[J_Player]

J_Player,

For now drop the obsession with the photoacoustic effect. Actually yes I will share my results with the group as you have been doing with the RangerTell so to answer your question the reply would be 'Damn straight Skippy!'.

Look J_Player you've been a pretty fair in your comments up until recently. Maybe you're getting burnt out on all this which I don't blame you. If you notice there are large gaps in time when you don't see my posting and this is why. This particular experiment of Estebans requires little effort on either of our parts so I don't mind as I have my own projects that I'm working on as the rest of the group does. I just get so tired of the bantering back and forth of pure theory without anyone bothering to test it for themselves. You are familiar with the old saying about opinions. It reminds me of when I used to work at the Hughes Aircraft Missile research Centre,you'd get these authoritative arrogant know it all's who would love to claim to know better than anyone else and enjoyed correcting their fellow co-worker in front of others-I'm sick of it.

It get's down to put up or shut up in the end-otherwise it's a chasing of the wind for people who have nothing better to do. Yeah it's easy,just keep the soldering iron off and type. This is said in general not to you J_Player as I have nothing against you.

Randy

By the way group, please take note that I sign my first name so please USE it when you reply.

Hi Randy,

Why should I drop the question of a photoacoustic effect?
This is my only argument... that there is no photoacoustic effect causing a signal.

I have no argument that Esteban observed a change in the sound on his FM radio, or that it happened in areas where there was buried metals. My point is that it cannot be caused by a photoacoustic effect -- and any assersions to say it is are misinformation.

Conducting tests can be very simple as you say, but not when using the circuitry that Esteban used. We can check his assertions only if he tells us what simple circuits to build to hear the sound for ourselves. Any other substitute tests don't really check his claim: "exactly the same as he did more than 20 years ago". Using different equipment than he used produces tainted tests, as Esteban says the modified Zahori tests did.

If this is so easy to replicate, then it is even easier for Esteban to replicate. He already has the exact equipment that he claims produced the photoacustic responses. He has to build nothing... only to take a microphone to a buried sample and check whether it is making a sound. There is no chance it will be the "built the wrong way".

Hopefully, you don't see this as an unfair request. I have also been involved in testing for years, and I am well aware of the pitfalls of making modifications when testing a simple theory, as well as the pitfalls of publishing speculative thoughts as if they are facts.

I have the highest respect for the experimentation and dedication Esteban has put into metal locating research.
My only argument is with publishing speculations as facts. So let your test determine if the speculation is correct or not about buried metals responding to photoacoustic effects.

Best wishes,
J_P