Simple question

[ivconic]

Simple question for all LRL enthusiasts;

when you deal with so called Long Range Locating, dowsing or whatever -
what kind of signal exactly you are dealing with?
What are the features of such "signal"?

If you want science to solve the problem of LRL and offer exact apparatus/device which will operate accurately and bring you good results - first you must know exact parameters and features of signal you would like to detect and process.

So,
again, what kind of signal you are searching for?
What are the features of such signal?
...

Until you clear up these questions - you will not get any sane results, trust me!
Until you define exact signal features and parameters of what you will "receive" with LRL device - you will wander as goose in a fog and waste all your life time, energy and money.

Simply as that.
...
So, instead more polluting these forums with complete nonsenses - stop for a moment, put your finger on your brow and think hard!

You must admit that it looks very stupid and backward what you are doing here all the time!
And what is that what are you doing all the time?
I will tell you!
You people are spreading blur theories, making tens of blur devices and apparatuses, evolving some new and completely idiotic "science" , suggesting some new "techniques" , designing some new schematics...etc...etc..
And all the time you truly do not know what are you talking about !?
You are ready to debate, to make some device, to perform many field tests - yet; all the time you are completely ignorant about crucial things which are very necessary if you want to do something at all:
signal, dimension, features, tendencies.... ??
...
You are looking very funny and mostly stupid doing like that! Don't you realize this?
There are people on this forum who spent most of their lives trying to achieve something and up to today they achieved NOTHING!
I know a man from here who made 10 tons of various wild coils, ferrite setups, pcb's ... and up to today he achieved NOTHING.
After 20-30 years of dealing with same problem - even now at this moment he is not able to explain a bit of such "signal" features?
Even today he don't know what he was "studied" all those years!?
Isn't that sad?
...
Ok, just try to explain the "signal" which is subject in LRL matters?
At least try to explain it to yourselves if not to us here in public.
...

Now you know how we others are looking at you!



All... and i mean ALL of materials what are posted on RS threads are complete junk!
Complete crap, rubbish, trash.
Sorry, but it is unbeatable FACT!

First who answer my question about "signal" will persuade me to completely change my attitude upon this.
Until than......

[ivconic]

No answers on my simple question?
As i thought.
Nobody from LRL'st and dowsers actually do not know the answer!
And that is the thing which is most sad but also illustrative.
As i see; we will see hundreds more "projects" on these pages in future, and by the rule, those all will be presented exactly by people who can not find answer on my very simple question...

[Mike(Mont)]

Nothing wrong with asking a question, just all the Andy Rooney-type garbage that makes you look so biased. Let me say I see no advantage to producing a scientific-like study. I've been practicing daily for many years and I don't need any "proof". If you want proof then go and get it yourself. Get a frequency generator and some L-rods or better yet get a system with an electronic receiver if you hope it to be scientific. But even then it is unlikely. There are just too many variables not the least of which is the emotional state of the user.

I am told the signal line from Molecular Frequency Discriminators (MFD) is magnetic. That is, the essence of the target's field is communicated across this something like the string on a tin can and string telephone used by children. The signal line acts like an antenna. It is a concentration of the lines of force. If you have studied ground radio you know it is conduction and induction. Absolutely no doubt in my mind this is where the MFD concept originated.

Getting back to L-rods. Some people can feel the signal line in their feet, through their shoes. I've heard dogs feel it in their feet, also. What is it that gives the buzz many people feel when on the signal line or near the target (or even pointing the rod at the target)? I have said it feels very much like when you hit your hand with a hammer only without the pain, there is a buzz that is your body sending an electrical charge to the injured area. I read a book on meditation and some shrink claims it's all a hallucination. That's a good cop-out, hide the elephant under the carpet. Typically the palms of the hands feel it the most and there are many acupuncture receiver points there.

All the early MFD systems used electronic receivers. The L-rods were substituted because they are cheap and fast.

Which brings up the topic about why skeptics cannot use a locator. My theory is they have been hypnotized, but it certainly also has to do with the indoctrination they received at an early age from parents, etc. Their subconscious runs programs like the "I don't like green eggs and ham, Sam I am." I was watching a TV series titled "Brain Games" the other day. A guy had hypnotized a woman so she thought there was no number "4". He had her count his ten fingers and she skipped the number four and ended up counting eleven fingers. He spelled out the word "f-o-u-r" and asked her to pronounce it. "Foo--are" she said. He asked her if she had ever heard of that word and she said it sounded somewhat familiar. Did James Randi start this hypnosis thing against dowsing/locating? I have to believe he popularized it. I guees I shouldn't say I think you skeptics are stupid. You are just gullible to believe someone without one shread of experience on the subject. Well, that is stupid.

[Mike(Mont)]

To be fair, I should say I think anyone who takes one of the "tests" (like randi or carl's) is also gullible. Eight out of ten sounds innocent, but it's not. Just finding one out of one target in a relatively small search area is beyond random chance and for each successive trial the odds are multiplied. That's like winning a small lotto in the hundred's of thousands. And the constant repetition is an effective way to confuse the person. These guys know this. I think it's a way for someone to get free lessons and nothing more other than to ridicule the person. That's why I would demand a fee of $2500 (same price as lessons from one LRL manufacturer). If I lose I don't care what they say about me.

[hung]

Nothing wrong with asking a question, just all the Andy Rooney-type garbage that makes you look so biased. Let me say I see no advantage to producing a scientific-like study. I've been practicing daily for many years and I don't need any "proof". If you want proof then go and get it yourself. Get a frequency generator and some L-rods or better yet get a system with an electronic receiver if you hope it to be scientific. But even then it is unlikely. There are just too many variables not the least of which is the emotional state of the user.

I am told the signal line from Molecular Frequency Discriminators (MFD) is magnetic. That is, the essence of the target's field is communicated across this something like the string on a tin can and string telephone used by children. The signal line acts like an antenna. It is a concentration of the lines of force. If you have studied ground radio you know it is conduction and induction. Absolutely no doubt in my mind this is where the MFD concept originated.

Getting back to L-rods. Some people can feel the signal line in their feet, through their shoes. I've heard dogs feel it in their feet, also. What is it that gives the buzz many people feel when on the signal line or near the target (or even pointing the rod at the target)? I have said it feels very much like when you hit your hand with a hammer only without the pain, there is a buzz that is your body sending an electrical charge to the injured area. I read a book on meditation and some shrink claims it's all a hallucination. That's a good cop-out, hide the elephant under the carpet. Typically the palms of the hands feel it the most and there are many acupuncture receiver points there.

All the early MFD systems used electronic receivers. The L-rods were substituted because they are cheap and fast.

Which brings up the topic about why skeptics cannot use a locator. My theory is they have been hypnotized, but it certainly also has to do with the indoctrination they received at an early age from parents, etc. Their subconscious runs programs like the "I don't like green eggs and ham, Sam I am." I was watching a TV series titled "Brain Games" the other day. A guy had hypnotized a woman so she thought there was no number "4". He had her count his ten fingers and she skipped the number four and ended up counting eleven fingers. He spelled out the word "f-o-u-r" and asked her to pronounce it. "Foo--are" she said. He asked her if she had ever heard of that word and she said it sounded somewhat familiar. Did James Randi start this hypnosis thing against dowsing/locating? I have to believe he popularized it. I guees I shouldn't say I think you skeptics are stupid. You are just gullible to believe someone without one shread of experience on the subject. Well, that is stupid.

Good post Mike. Tough exact scientific details are missing, it gives a good general explanation on the subject.
I will only add that the rods act as an effective clean receiving antenna unlike an ordinary electronic apparatus which would be seriously affected by noise.
And also that magnetism manifests itself in many variation forms including light.

I no longer get myself involved in such discussions in forums as it turns into tiresome arguing with the called skeptics. And I will not do it here either.
The anwers are out there.
It's up to one go get it and use it to its understanding. This is what I did regarding my LRL technology.

If you still did not read it, some months ago I posted in TNET a thread about magnetism and its implications. It's called 'When Ordinary Science Fails to Explain'.
I think you should read it.

Regards.

[ivconic]

Cool, at least you tried to give more closer perspective!
Sure, your way of understanding the LRL "things" is pretty common and related to common sense.
However; you still do not know what kind of signal is there to be detected?
You said it is complex... so what?
Do i need to name you all the types of indeed complex signals that are in use in todays technology? I think i don't, because you already know most of those.
So, if there is already proven technology to generate and later receive and analyze such complex signals - than i see no troubles to do the same with LRL signals too.
Just define it here with all it's features - and we will make perfect device to detect it and process it any way you wish.
Just define it...
Just define it...
Explain it...
Give all data and features...
Give starting point...
What is it? AC current? RF current? Wave? PWM? AM? FM?
What?
That was the point of my question!
All of you people are very ready to debate, argue and sometimes offend - but in essence neither one of you do not know NEITHER ONE usable info about LRL signal nature!
Pity!
Hung is the champion here, champion of debates! Nobody can "overtalk" him here!
Yet... not even him ever offered nothing "material" that maybe help to find the answer on my question...
So, do not focus on "injurious" side of my attitude and my question - but do focus on finding the exact answer!
Cheers!

[hung]

I did not need you to find my answers, so why would you need me to find yours?

[ivconic]

I did not need you to find my answers, so why would you need me to find yours?

Because i am not LRL proponent, i am "skeptic"... remember?
But forget me, i am not important, what is very important is:

1) This is public forum,
2) You (all of you people) do come here and make claims,
3) You (all of you people) started first to mention such thing and ask for solutions,
4) You (all of you people) are the ones who started all the debates here,
5) Once you appear and claim such claims - you simply MUST backup and support those with facts, otherwise don't be offended with our suspicions and our attitude,

I was not the first who started, without your appearance at first - i would never ever even think about something like LRL!
Once you started with claims, it is very logical and expectable you to face with a lot of questions.
I am not asking you so much - just one simple question...
Is it so tough to answer?
I bet it is, simply because right answer is something you will not accept ever!

[J_Player]

...Let me say I see no advantage to producing a scientific-like study. I've been practicing daily for many years and I don't need any "proof". If you want proof then go and get it yourself. Get a frequency generator and some L-rods or better yet get a system with an electronic receiver if you hope it to be scientific. But even then it is unlikely. There are just too many variables not the least of which is the emotional state of the user.

I am told the signal line from Molecular Frequency Discriminators (MFD) is magnetic. That is, the essence of the target's field is communicated across this something like the string on a tin can and string telephone used by children. The signal line acts like an antenna. It is a concentration of the lines of force. If you have studied ground radio you know it is conduction and induction. Absolutely no doubt in my mind this is where the MFD concept originated.

...I guees I shouldn't say I think you skeptics are stupid. You are just gullible to believe someone without one shread of experience on the subject. Well, that is stupid.

Hi Mike,

I have looked for some proof as you suggested with both dowsing rods and with a swiveling LRL to see what signals are present.
I used very sensitive instruments to measure actual signals in the air much smaller and broader spectrum than any radio you can buy will tune.
I measured both magnetic signals and electric field signals. I was able to observe tiny signals well below 1 Hz, and into the GHz band.
Guess what I found?
I found noise in the air.
This was mostly RF from nearby power circuits that were switching, from broadcasts, and from local computers and electronics.
When I set up LRLs that were guaranteed to establish a signal line from a rod or antenna to a gold sample I was not able to locate this signal line.

I guess this is evidence that whatever "magnetic" signal line is so much weaker than the noise in the air that it cannot be measured or detected with magnetic or electric sensing instruments.
I also read where some LRL users say the signal line circuit is completed by traveling in the ground from the buried treasure to the feet of the dowser or LRL user. So I made some tests using ground probes to check for unusual signals in the line between them.
Guess what I found?
I found more noise.
Even the noise is hard to find unless you set your instruments to very sensitive settings and take special precautions for grounding and shielding so you don't pick up stray noise that is not being measured from the ground probe.
The appearance is no matter where you go to conduct these measurements, you find the same exact noise signals whether you remove the treasure sample or not, and regardless of who is holding the dowsing rods.
The LRL signals is a whole different story.
I did measure signals coming from the LRL, but they were not measurable beyond 6 inches maximum (this particular model did not have a powered adjustable frequency generator attached, but a pocket calculator for generating a signal).
The bottom line is that very sensitive electronic instruments were not able to locate anywhere a signal line between the dowser or LRL and a piece of gold at any frequency between 1/4 Hz and into the low GHz range. Not in three dimensional space, and not down six inches into the ground
Not a magnetic signal or an electric signal or a signal that we call RF.

I would think I would see at least a millivolt if this signal was strong enough to cause a rod to swing, or an antenna to swivel.
But there was nothing there.
The noise signals I measured did not change in the least when an assistant removed the gold sample from the location 30 feet away.

The evidence I measured with electronic instruments makes it hard for me to believe that there is a signal line composed of a magnetic frequency.
And we know that if there was such a signal moving through the air as a frequency, it would propagate in transverse waves, not longitudinal waves as we find with the mechanical waves traveling through a string between tin cans.
Now, I begin to wonder who told you that the signal line is magnetic? Certainly not a scientist who has experience with magnetics.
It sounds like something a person who is ignorant of the properties of magnetic waves and fields would say.

You say you see no advantage to producing a scientific-like study. I've been practicing daily for many years and I don't need any "proof".
Of course not if the evidence we find by actually taking measurements proves your theory is wrong!

Does the evidence make people wonder how your practicing every day with dowsing rods/LRLs caused you to conlcude there are magnetic waves traveling in a signal line that can't be measured?
Does it make people wonder if you expound these un-founded theories of magnetism to convice other people who also don't know the nature of magnetic waves?

You finish your symposium on dowsing/MFD theory by saying skeptics are gullible.
I have already seen the evidence that your theory is wrong.
But I have not seen evidence that you can in fact successfully locate hidden things with your dowsing or LRLs.
If you really believe you can find things with your dowsing rods and LRLs, this is fine with me.
But I will never believe you can do it until I see a convincing demonstration where you repeatedly recover things that you don't know the location of.
If you believe this defines me to be gullible, then feel free to believe as you wish.

Judging from your description of how dowsing/MFD works, your version seems to work as the result of mental conditions rather than than physical conditions.


Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Well said JPlayer, because your experiments correlates with most things we all did in the past, when examining this LRL thing at the beginning.
I am sorry to say; but our results also correlates!
But in your nice post you said one crucial thing:

"...It sounds like something a person who is ignorant of the properties of magnetics would say..."

Exactly!

That's the fact and that's the main problem here on this forum!

I would not limit that claim only on properties of magnetics - i would amplify it as: properties of any other possible feature too!

Exactly that's why i started this topic and asked such very simple question about features and properties of LRL "signal".

We can not build a rocket without knowing more essential things!
C'mon, let's first define the LRL "signal" and once we do that - the rest would be piece of cake!
It is not shame because i as skeptic am ignorant on these matters - but
it is huge shame because major LRL proponents actually are not capable even to define essential thing ...
as "signal" itself , which they want to receive and "process" !
Huge shame!

[Mike(Mont)]

Sorry but I've got most of you skeptics on virtual ignore.

When you start talking about how L-rods are able to detect, the whole subject is beyond any skeptic's comprehension. They refuse to accept even the most basic principles like the etheric body of humans. Even though it has been used for thousands of years, most refuse to admit acupuncture is real but even the medical doctors in the USA have finally admitted there is something there (and they want a piece of the pie$$$$$). It's a waste of my time to even discuss it here.

Oh yea, at least Andy Rooney admits he is biased.

[Mike(Mont)]

One more thing about test odds. If you have a an area slightly bigger than twenty feet by twenty feet the odds of getting within eighteen inches are about fifty to one. That means not only is a one out of one attempts beyond random chance, so is one out of two, one out of three, even one out of four.

[ivconic]

Sorry but I've got most of you skeptics on virtual ignore.

When you start talking about how L-rods are able to detect, the whole subject is beyond any skeptic's comprehension. They refuse to accept even the most basic principles like the etheric body of humans. Even though it has been used for thousands of years, most refuse to admit acupuncture is real but even the medical doctors in the USA have finally admitted there is something there (and they want a piece of the pie$$$$$). It's a waste of my time to even discuss it here.

Oh yea, at least Andy Rooney admits he is biased.

Obviously you are not ignoring , because i see your presence most often here on similar topics.
Which is not bad at all. I like to see you people here, because your opinions and experiences sometimes can have some value in debunking the things here.
I only do not understand why you people always take kind a hostile attitude upon us skeptics?
Because our suspicions and questions are not malicious but honest and caused by wish to know and learn more.
So what's wrong in that?
Here on this topic you already showed emotions and started with offend? Why?
I don't see nothing bad in my simple question?
What's so bad?
What's so injurious?
What's so provocative?
Question is more than simple:
what is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

As LRL expert - you should know the proper answers?

[ivconic]

My question is so uncomfortable, seems everybody really trying to avoid commenting it!?



People you may pollute Geotech forum further with more new nonsense topics if you want,
but this topic is something what puts the END of any further sanity of your debates and claims.
Simply because question i asked here is the one that must be answered if you want to continue!
Otherwise all your efforts are for nothing, completely absurd and trivial.
From now on i will constantly refresh this topic with a new post and that's how i will keep it on the top of RS threads so you can not easily put it away and forget.
It will stay here and serve as reminder.
By doing this i am not harming no forum rules at all, therefore administrators will not have slightest reason to do anything against that.
...

So;
what kind of signal is supposed to be that famous LRL "signal"?
What are it's properties and features?

[ivconic]

BTW i am not the only one here to be interested in answer...