lrl

[WM6]

Put f=100 kHz and let's see, what wave length wl is:
wl = (300 000 000 m/s) / (100 000 /s) = 3000 m.

Yes Aziz, but this not mean that long wave lenght are not reflective from small targets.

All wave lenght are pretty same reflective from small metall target (on same field strenght). The main difference is in its dispersivity on reflection (depend on angle of incidence). Short wave lenght are very little dispersive from same metalic surface in comparition of long wavelenght.

So it was possible to beat down 10m invisible aircraft with 100m (3MHz) wave lenght radar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_radar

[Fred]

Also there may be a "halo" effect wich size is unknown.

[Aziz]

There is a free antenna simulating software available. It's called 4nec2 ( http://home.ict.nl/~arivoors/Home.htm ). You can use the free NEC2 engines (modules).

Just make a simple VLF TX antenna over a ground plane (ground) and look at the radiation pattern. Compare this radiation pattern with a gold coin placed somewhere (not much far away to see more difference).

That would be a good lecture lesson I think. But I suppose, it's beyond the scope of LRL believers.

Don't spread bull$hit please. We have too much bull$hit in the world.

Aziz

[Aziz]

Also there may be a "halo" effect wich size is unknown.

BULL$HIT!

[WM6]

BULL$HIT!

Aziz, gold is the biggest BULL$HIT! in the world.

[Max]

Look at the wave length of a 30 kHz or 100 kHz EM wave and compare it with a gold coin or gold ring dimension.

Wave length wl = c/f [m],
c = speed of light [m/s]
f = frequency of EM wave [1/s]

Put f=100 kHz and let's see, what wave length wl is:
wl = (300 000 000 m/s) / (100 000 /s) = 3000 m.

Oh $hit, our gold ring is a small particle now!!!!
Oh $hit!

Aziz

Hi
yes, long waves are not really reflected by small metallic masses, not dubt about but that doesn't mean their presence couldn't cause some alteration in propagation of such waves e.g. in the soil, even not considering the presence of an "halo" effect due to the target and we cannot take into account cause nobody really knows if there is or how to model.

It's not that easy to liquidate the topic... as an example I can say that e.g. 30 GHz microwaves propagation (10mm wavelength) is strongly affected by particulate in fog... but I don't see any fog particle anything near 10mm in diameter but maybe 1000 times less!

it's the overall effect that we are interested in, we are not talking of a standard solid "reflector" here, cause it's obvious can't work for such small stuff and so long wavelength; but maybe the effect of the metallic mass in soil is "larger" than the mass dimensions itself... think e.g. not only at "halo" but at earth currents that may develop and interfere with signal propagation, or think e.g. at eventual absorbance of RF by nanoparticles of the dispersed metal in soil e.g. in the case of copper or silver...

so, probably all LRL topic is BS cause it's related to scum activities and people without a good understanding of physics, but maybe is good considering the whole scenario before liquidating as BS the rf propagation for small stuff topic...


regards
Max

[Max]

Aziz, gold is the biggest BULL$HIT! in the world.

are you communist maybe ?

regards
Max

[mesy64]

You ask for schematic of casette recorder you use too?

Yes, dear friend. Cassette plan or any plan for further assessment of other practical use can be made . 'm Waiting for your help

[J_Player]

Hi guys,

go and read the antenna basics before making any speculations and assumptions.

And consider the following fact:

A similar comparison to the astronomy:
Your detector is detecting only to micro wave and infra red spectrum. But you want to detect small particles. The emission (TX) isn't absorbed by the small particles, they "ride" with the EM waves. The small particles aren't visible to your detector.

Transfer this to the frequency spectrum VLF.
All the small targets can't be detected really. They don't either absorb nor reflect the TX emissions. They are completely invisible to the very long EM waves.

To understand it better, look at the reflector part of directional antenna basics.
When does a reflector reflects EM waves?

Radios & LRL's aren't metal detectors!
All this LRL stuff is bull$hit. It is what it is: bull$hit.
Enough bull$hit guys.

Aziz

Hi Asis,

In order to understand how these VLF circuits can detect you must first take a look at the near-field propagation for loop antennas.
The mechanics are a bit different than far-field propagation.
In your argument you make an assumption that is not true.
These transmitters and receivers are not beeping at small particles.
They are beeping at large volumes of soil.
It is not possible for a VLF to detect a coin for example. But it is very possible to detect a larger anomaly in the chemical/electrical properties of the soil.
Of course, even when we move to the higher VLF frequencies, we still have a hard time to detect a large anomaly in the soil, so we don't expect the usual geologist's 10-20 KHz frequencies to be the most suitable for this application.
In fact we see most VLF experimenters using transmitters in the 60-120 KHz range who report they are finding some sort of results from more than a meter distance.
Keep in mind these frequencies are not used for imaging. They are only claiming they observe beeping when pointing the direction of ground with a long-time buried metal object.

I am very familiar with antenna basics and with near field propagation from a VLF loop. What most people don't understand is these transmitters and receivers are not detecting any small object. They are detecting anomalies that come from much larger volumes of soil which have changed electrically as a result of chemical actions around the buried object. It is well documented that even gold dissolves into the soil in small amounts, due to chemical actions of soil constituents. But this also applies to copper, aluminum, iron, silver, lead, zinc, and any other metals that are found buried. We can expect the copper and silver which is usually alloyed in a buried gold object to be polluting the local area of soil more than the concentration of gold dissolved. However I do not put this forth as a theory. There are hundreds of scientist and lab technicians all over the world who have already measured the chemical changes I talk about. By measuring these anomalies in the soil, technicians have been consistently locating gold ores and other metals that have been long-time buried below the anomalies for decades. You can read more about this here:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=55850&postcount=10

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=56059&postcount=33

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=56124&postcount=41

I do not even claim that this large volume of altered ground is what the VLF detectors are detecting.
I speculate this is related to the reports of beeping from 2 meters distance or more.
I actually suspect there is more involved than simply beeping at some electrically altered ground.
Near field VLF wave propagation is also influenced by some related electrical events that are taking place on the surface where we find soil with anomalies in the electrical properties.

I don't think any simple VLF survey equipment as used by a geologist will adequately detect these soil anomalies I am talking about.
I believe it takes a specially modified version moved to a higher frequency and adapted for directional surveying and a few other details before they begin to become detectable.
But this is only my thinking.
At this point nobody has offered a complete theory how any of this could work or not work. So it is only a bunch of talk.

Except for one thing...
If VLF is not capable of detecting as I speculate, then what is causing Morgan's VLF detector to beep 2 meters distance from the buried gold medal which has been buried a long time in his test garden?
I watched the video like everyone else, when he had an un-convinced electronic engineer as witness who became convinced after trying it himself.

The way I see it we can either say it does not work and is bs, or we can wonder what caused the beeping.
I have heard enough reports of VLF detecting at more than 2 meters distance to convince me it is worth investigating a little more before deciding a VLF machine cannot produce beeps from a few meters distance.

It can't be that hard to put a scope on the detector stage of a VLF locator to see what is changing in the signal when you point it toward some buried metal.
Maybe it is easier to holler BS and pretend it is not possible for the ground to be altered around buried metals and cause some beeping.


Best wishes,
J_P

[Aziz]

Looks like the LRL rats have a bull$hit explanation V2.0

Stop talking bull$hit now!

Aziz

[J_Player]

Looks like the LRL rats have a bull$hit explanation V2.0

Stop talking bull$hit now!

Aziz

Hi Asis,
You make another mistake.
I have not given an explanation at all.
I simply showed what was wrong with your argument.
I showed how you ignored some chemical/electrical events which happen in the ground around metals which have been buried a long time.
And I showed that there is an overwhelming body of evidence that buried metals are routinely detected by technicians measuring these anomalies.

I did not prove that VLF detects small particles, in fact I stated it cannot.
But I did ask a question that you did not answer.
And I ask it again...

If VLF is not capable of detecting as I speculate, then what is causing Morgan's VLF detector to beep 2 meters distance from the buried gold medal which has been buried a long time in his test garden?

I have heard other people give answers to this question. What is yours?

Best wishes,
J_P

[MIJ]

J P

A brilliant post especially for anyone like me who didn’t understand how VLF works.

Also the links all about Gold in the ground and what happens to it.

Have you actually made and tested a VLF unit?

Great info thanks.

[WM6]

are you communist maybe ?

regards
Max

No, prisonist in wrong galaxy.

[WM6]

Yes, dear friend. Cassette plan or any plan for further assessment of other practical use can be made . 'm Waiting for your help

No problem, mesy, send me your cassette player and I will make you schematic.

[Geo]

Hi Asis,
You make another mistake.
I have not given an explanation at all.
I simply showed what was wrong with your argument.
I showed how you ignored some chemical/electrical events which happen in the ground around metals which have been buried a long time.
And I showed that there is an overwhelming body of evidence that buried metals are routinely detected by technicians measuring these anomalies.

I did not prove that VLF detects small particles, in fact I stated it cannot.
But I did ask a question that you did not answer.
And I ask it again...

If VLF is not capable of detecting as I speculate, then what is causing Morgan's VLF detector to beep 2 meters distance from the buried gold medal which has been buried a long time in his test garden?

I have heard other people give answers to this question. What is yours?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J_P.
Don't you know the answer???
A hiden telecontrol

Regards

Btw... very good post.....