Your feedback wanted on dowsing.

[hung]

I have never seen anyone find gold using a LRL like the Mineoro. If they work then I know nothing about it. My understanding is that they work exactly as well as dowsing. But I may be wrong.

Come to Brazil and I can introduce you to a bunch of them who just don't have the time (also don't want) to stick around in forums. Always busy in the field.

You really don't know anything about them. Mineoro dectetors are TOTALLY electronic. No dowsing involved.

[Dell Winders]

And for the phenomenum of Radiesthesia For me it exist , I know a very good dowser who discover water very deep 80-200 meters with accuracy in difficult soil where water is difficult to find with traditional geophysical instruments ....he say me for water is easy for him but for something without movement he do not have result ( metal treasure etc...) ...it is physical a flux of water generate a flux of something this something detected by the dowser....

According to science, water is a strong concentrator of the earth's magnetic "field" and will follow even slightly moving water.

Iron is another chemical element that the earth's magnetic field concentrates around quite strong making it's "field" detectable and measurable.

"Physical Dowsing" detects the stronger emenating "fields" at the surface of the earth which are layered over weaker "fields", over weaker "fields" etc, etc.

Discrimination of the "field" concentrated around a chemical element, can be accompolished with the mind via "Mental Dowsing", or with the use of frequency, and/or electronics. Dell

[J_Player]

Hung says: "You really don't know anything about them".

You are right. I admit it. I don't know anything about them except I have never seen anyone find gold using a LRL like the Mineoro.
This is why I would spend my money on a high-end PI detector that I know works instead.

Hung also says: "Mineoro dectetors are TOTALLY electronic. No dowsing involved".

There are real TOTALLY electronic LRL detectors located in satellites that send back information telling where real underground ore deposits are to geologists. If the Mineoro detectors are TOTALLY electronic, then they should work just as well whether you hold the machine in your hand, or if you mount it on the back of a tractor, or in a plane and watch the electronics tell you where the treasures are. If they are TOTALLY electronic, then you should be able to adjust the controls and send it of in a remotely piloted vehicle to search a large area of land for all the hidden treasures. I never heard of anybody having any success with a Mineoro type LRL mounted in a remotely piloted vehicle to locate treasures. But I have heard a lot about true electronic locators that find ore deposits and oil by using Gamma spectroscopy methods. In fact mining and oil companies pay big money to have surveys done using these machines. I am sure they will pay the same big money to anyone who brings a Mineoro detector and shows them where there are large mineral deposits that they didn't know about as well. Are the LRL people in Brazil so rich from the treasures they found that they don't have time to pick up an extra $50,000 or more for a couple week's work showing a mining company where to find a large deposit of copper or gold?

Second: Regardless of what principle the LRLs work on, I still have not seen anyone find gold using a LRL like the Mineoro. Maybe somebody has, but I just haven't seen them. I live in a well known area where there are abandoned gold mines and silver mines nearby. I even found a few small nuggets in these areas. There is still some gold there, because nobody really worked these areas much after the 1900s. There may even be burried treasures and church ornaments left behind by the Jesuit priests who were told to return to Spain, thinking they would return in a couple of years to dig up their caches. If your LRLs work then you should certainly find more than the few small nuggets I found.

Yes, I know nothing about these machines, and I will continue to know nothing until somebody shows me some results. Then I will be able to honestly post here in the forum about the treasures that I saw the LRLs find. But that hasn't happened yet.

Here is an open invitation to anyone who has a LRL that works: Come on over and I will show you where the old gold mines and silver mines are. Then you will have the chance to dig in the same place where the Jesuit priests got their gold and silver to make church ornaments. Click on my profile and send me an email so we can make arrangements.

[Elie]

He taught me about the nature of matter and how gold and other elements came to be formed from the stage of a nebula to the solid materials under the surface of the earth. He told me from the point of view of a German astrophysicist what characteristics we can expect to find in the minerals under the earth. He went into some detail about radioisotopes and sub-atomic particles and energies. From there he explained how his long range locating machine worked. The explanation I posted in the forum is a simplified version of what his LRL machines measured. They did detect the presence of gamma radiation, but they did a lot more. His detectors were fitted with small computers that performed the function of gamma spectroscopy in conjunction with the sensor to identify what elements the probe was picking up. This was at a time before desktop computers were common. Most of the sampling circuitry was analog, with a digital section that did the computing. He also taught me the difference between what his machine was measuring and what dowsers are sensing when they "locate anomolies" in the ground. According to Dr. Bickel, the dowsers are not (in his opinion) sensing gamma radiation directly, but the effects it has on a number of naturally occurring fields that can be sensed on the surface of the earth. He explained the effects of underground streams in masking other anomolies below them, and how many of these naturally occuring fields are concentrated around the edges of an underground stream or other anomaly. He also explained that these naturally occuring fields are greatly influenced by physical objects aboove the ground (buildings, cars, etc.) as well as space energies (sunspots, ionosphere, cosmic radiation activities, etc.)

From what he taught me I concluded there is no simple science to dowsing, and if a person wanted to have a good grasp on how it works, then he would be well advised to learn more about the geophysics involved. For those who are not scientifically inclined, I would suggest that if they are sensitive to these fiields, they can still become quite sucessful at dowsing as long as they keep in mind that their results are not always repeatable, and subject to variations in the fields around them. Also I would caution that when they get a reaction in their dowsing instrument, they have no real way to know what exactly is causing that reaction until they excavate and find out for themselves. Perhaps it is not even something from below the ground.

The electronic machine that Dr. Bickel built was not subject to the natural fields at the surface of the earth nearly so much as a dowser is, because his machine was measuring gamma waves, not the fields they traveled through. Dr. Bickel was also a dowser, but he did not use any LRL dowsing machines. He preferred a simple pair of L rods he made from wire and 2 dowels.

If you want to know more of what Dr. Bickel taught me, you can read "The Divining Hand". It is a dated book, but the theories and explanations in that book are in fairly good agreement with what Dr. Bickel told me.

Another post after a night with no sleep...
I asked what Dr. Bickel taught you because you stated that he was a dowser. Even if his machine is as good as you claim, it does not mean that we have to accept his ideas about related matters. Someone might invent or discover something very important, and then come up with a crazy idea related to it. Francis Crick, one of the discoverers of DNA, thought that it was brought to Earth by aliens. And so with Dr. Bickel's idea that dowsing actually worked, using the same principle as his machine.

[J_Player]

You are saying: "And so with Dr. Bickel's idea that dowsing actually worked, using the same principle as his machine." ??

Did you actually read my post? Neither I nor Dr. Bickel ever said dowsing worked on the same principle as his machine that detected mineral deposits. If you go back and carefully read, you will see where I explained that he "taught me the difference between what his machine was measuring and what dowsers are sensing". Dr. Bickel told me in no uncertain terms that his machines had nothing to do with dowsing.

You will also find another post at the top of this page where I explain the workings of his machine in a little more detail. His machines are not capable of measuring any near-earth fields, only light. By processing the signal recieved by very tiny, dim flashes of light, the identity of the material under the probe can be determined. How does that sound in any way similar to the principles of dowsing?

You are right. You do not have to accept his ideas obout these related matters. You do not have to accept the explanation that his machines are measuring photons flashing in a crystal, or even accept that these devices exist in satellites. You are free to accept whatever theories you like the best.

[Carl-NC]

According to science, water is a strong concentrator of the earth's magnetic "field" and will follow even slightly moving water.

No, water it diamagnetic. It is not a "strong concentrator" of magnetic fields.

- Carl

[hung]

If the Mineoro detectors are TOTALLY electronic, then they should work just as well whether you hold the machine in your hand, or if you mount it on the back of a tractor, or in a plane and watch the electronics tell you where the treasures are.

That's correct. But...

If they are TOTALLY electronic, then you should be able to adjust the controls and send it of in a remotely piloted vehicle to search a large area of land for all the hidden treasures. I never heard of anybody having any success with a Mineoro type LRL mounted in a remotely piloted vehicle to locate treasures.

They were made for human use. There are occasions in which the ionic field ot target is weak and you have to adjust the knobs accordingly, besides, what's the point of sending the PDC 210 for instance attached to a plane??!

In fact mining and oil companies pay big money to have surveys done using these machines. I am sure they will pay the same big money to anyone who brings a Mineoro detector and shows them where there are large mineral deposits that they didn't know about as well. Are the LRL people in Brazil so rich from the treasures they found that they don't have time to pick up an extra $50,000 or more for a couple week's work showing a mining company where to find a large deposit of copper or gold?

If those are the values people in US are paying, I'll tell my friend who's got a job like this here and owns a PDC 210 right away. He only get 500 bucks daily for telling the contractors were the gold veins are.. Thanks a lot for this info.

Here is an open invitation to anyone who has a LRL that works: Come on over and I will show you where the old gold mines and silver mines are. Then you will have the chance to dig in the same place where the Jesuit priests got their gold and silver to make church ornaments. Click on my profile and send me an email so we can make arrangements.

JPLAYER, I for myself would love to. But we got so many gold here in Brazil still to be recovered. Thanks for the invitation anyway.

[hung]

No, water it diamagnetic. It is not a "strong concentrator" of magnetic fields.

Yes, water is indeed a magnetic field 'concentrator'. Check electrogravitic laws regarding the earth and you'll find this confirmation among others such as gravity being resonant.

[Carl-NC]

Yes, water is indeed a magnetic field 'concentrator'. Check electrogravitic laws regarding the earth....

Any references to this?

[hung]

Unfortunately the references I have are on books and reports.
You however will find plenty of this on 'magnetohydrodynamics'. About ten years ago I had a research team who studied deeply and acomplished projects on magnetohydrodynamics.
Here are a couple of links which I found quickly as I don't have the time now. One coincidentally is Dell's explanation.
Have fun.

http://www.nmsr.org/magnetic.htm

http://www.omnitron.net/success.htm

[Dell Winders]

Did you actually read my post? Neither I nor Dr. Bickel ever said dowsing worked on the same principle as his machine that detected mineral deposits. If you go back and carefully read, you will see where I explained that he "taught me the difference between what his machine was measuring and what dowsers are sensing". Dr. Bickel told me in no uncertain terms that his machines had nothing to do with dowsing.

For several years I had the opportunity to work with the operator of an instrument that appears very similar to Dr. Bickel's, instrument, and it was refered to as a Gamma Scan. I have been told a later version actually displays shadowy images of it's distant targets.

You are correct in saying it does not work very well at close range, or detect the "field" of small targets unless they are clustered in a large group of small targets such as concentrations of Gold particles.

The Gold in the Denver, Co mint was one of the test targets used in determining the remote Sensing ability of the Gamma Scan, to detect that amount from an aircraft, up to 350 miles away, and navigate the aircraft according to the Gamma Scan's, point of reference.

Much as the same with Frequency Discrimination (MFD) it is geographicly difficult to isolate and pinpoint the exact location of targets on the ground that are detected from high speed aircraft. To help in this determination, we would bury 25-30 pounds of low grade Uranium ore in the vicinity of the airborne location and wait 20-30 days and redo the scan. By detecting the concentrated "field" of the Uranium ore and it's relation to the airborne Gold location, we could isolate and pinpoint the Gold location.

This discussion started about the Meta-Physical art of Mental Dowsing, has once again evolved to the skeptic cult interpretation of Long Range Locators.
From years of being attacked for my support and practice of both methods as aids for Treasure hunting, I don't think the closed mind set of self proclaimed skeptics will ever be open to truth , or facts that are a challenge to the intelligence of their belief system.

[Carl-NC]

Unfortunately the references I have are on books and reports.
You however will find plenty of this on 'magnetohydrodynamics'. About ten years ago I had a research team who studied deeply and acomplished projects on magnetohydrodynamics.
Here are a couple of links which I found quickly as I don't have the time now. One coincidentally is Dell's explanation.
Have fun.

http://www.nmsr.org/magnetic.htm

http://www.omnitron.net/success.htm

Magnetohydrodynamics requires a conductive fluid, such as seawater, and really has nothing to do with whether water is a magnetic field concentrator.

Your two links were interesting though... one from Dell who initiated the claim, so I wouldn't count his web page as supporting evidence, especially when that same page has so many other gross errors of fact... and one from a group who thoroughly debunked the claims of magnetic water treatment, and includes a statement that supports my position: "unless it's made conductive and is moving really fast in a strong magnetic field, water has very little magnetic response."

There is a simple experiment to determine whether water is a magnetic field concentrator... simply wind an open-core inductor, and see if the value of the inductance changes when water is inserted as the core material. It does not.

- Carl

[Elie]

You are saying: "And so with Dr. Bickel's idea that dowsing actually worked, using the same principle as his machine." ??

Did you actually read my post? Neither I nor Dr. Bickel ever said dowsing worked on the same principle as his machine that detected mineral deposits. If you go back and carefully read, you will see where I explained that he "taught me the difference between what his machine was measuring and what dowsers are sensing". Dr. Bickel told me in no uncertain terms that his machines had nothing to do with dowsing.

You will also find another post at the top of this page where I explain the workings of his machine in a little more detail. His machines are not capable of measuring any near-earth fields, only light. By processing the signal recieved by very tiny, dim flashes of light, the identity of the material under the probe can be determined. How does that sound in any way similar to the principles of dowsing?

You are right. You do not have to accept his ideas obout these related matters. You do not have to accept the explanation that his machines are measuring photons flashing in a crystal, or even accept that these devices exist in satellites. You are free to accept whatever theories you like the best.

"This book also has a chapter about a German rocket scientist who built an electronic machine that works on the same principle that dowsers use. When I contacted the inventor of this machine, he demonstrated it, and he also showed me his own dowsing rods..."

[Elie]

No, water it diamagnetic. It is not a "strong concentrator" of magnetic fields.

- Carl

I am now glad that I was too tired to reply to Dell's post before, because I just came up with a great scientific discovery. Water cures arthritis! Just put it on your body! Everyone knows that it is a "proven scientific fact" that magnets cure arthritis (hence those stupid magnetic bracelets, etc.). Also, as Dell has informed us, "According to science, water is a strong concentrator of the earth's magnetic 'field'..." Therefore, simply take water, put it on your body, and it will cure what ails you! Am I a genius, or what?

[Carl-NC]

"This book also has a chapter about a German rocket scientist who built an electronic machine that works on the same principle that dowsers use. When I contacted the inventor of this machine, he demonstrated it, and he also showed me his own dowsing rods..."

Without re-reading everything that has been discussed on this, it appears that the device in question works on scientific principles, that being the detection of gamma radiation. I believe that it was assumed the principle of operation of his device was the same as dowsing, i.e., dowsers also detect radiation. I don't think there was an intention to imply the device utilyzed dowsing rods.

Even dowsers can invent useful non-dowsing devices!

- Carl