Free energy - HHO

[Fred]

Hi,
the problem was never having large currents at coils... one can also give 100A pulses (short) to the coil using solid state devices (and not only), but the problem is indeed the power needed to run such kind of MD...
Max

Hi Max,
One could use Lithium Polymer batteries,they are cheap now and can supply up to 35 time their amperange, you can easily find them at small size with 2700mah,wich means continuous current of almost 100A.
Of course wont long last, but what is the mean current of a powerfull PI?

[J_Player]

the problem was never having large currents at coils... one can also give 100A pulses (short) to the coil using solid state devices (and not only), but the problem is indeed the power needed to run such kind of MD...

Hi Max,
Maybe this could work on large coils used to find big treasures or meteorites. These large coils are sometimes towed by a vehicle with an engine, and could easily carry a lot of spare marine batteries or a generator to run the circuit. The problem is still that the added current in the coil does not make a a difference in depth equal to the increase in current. So the gains in depth are only a small percent of the added current. Maybe this is worthwhile for people who want the last degree of performance.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,
One could use Lithium Polymer batteries,they are cheap now and can supply up to 35 time their amperange, you can easily find them at small size with 2700mah,wich means continuous current of almost 100A.
Of course wont long last, but what is the mean current of a powerfull PI?

Hi,
most powerful PIs I remember are from Eric Foster designs... and have typically around 450-500ma consumption on hand-held kind... like deepstar things.

But here we are talking of well higher power... I think 2700mah batteries are not enough, maybe 100Ah is more realistic if wanna e.g. at least 8 hours of sure running on single battery pack... considering 10% duty cycle at tx pulse vs period.

But much depends on what really will be params like frequency... cause at higher frequency the duty-cycle is normally fairly higher (that's the case of Eric Foster's design of above... running around 3000Hz).

So things can be worse... and battery will last few hours in that case...

but carring a 100Ah battery for several hours...is not for everyone I think... maybe we need swarzy

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Max,
Maybe this could work on large coils used to find big treasures or meteorites. These large coils are sometimes towed by a vehicle with an engine, and could easily carry a lot of spare marine batteries or a generator to run the circuit. The problem is still that the added current in the coil does not make a a difference in depth equal to the increase in current. So the gains in depth are only a small percent of the added current. Maybe this is worthwhile for people who want the last degree of performance.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
yes, I agree.... it could be very useful for meteorite search , both in deserts and e.g. antartic regions... along with a good magnetometer with fast reading... the vehicle could carry everything... including THs so the problem doesn't exist in that case.

The increase in performance is 2x depth (roughly) for a 64x increase in transmitted EM pulse... so it's real battery drain I think... but could be usueful in such situations where e.g. a meteorite could be also at 20meters or more under sand or ice...

Also, I know of a very big nugget found in south california using a 4wd vehicle + suspended metal detector coil.... so would be a nice idea for people who wanna use for that purpose. Same apply to Australian folks.

But for handheld will be a real pain trying to encapsulate all such power in some battery of reasonable weight... I see no way it could be really made.

Kind regards,
Max

[peroon]

Hi,
most powerful PIs I remember are from Eric Foster designs... and have typically around 450-500ma consumption on hand-held kind... like deepstar things.

But here we are talking of well higher power... I think 2700mah batteries are not enough, maybe 100Ah is more realistic if wanna e.g. at least 8 hours of sure running on single battery pack... considering 10% duty cycle at tx pulse vs period.

But much depends on what really will be params like frequency... cause at higher frequency the duty-cycle is normally fairly higher (that's the case of Eric Foster's design of above... running around 3000Hz).

So things can be worse... and battery will last few hours in that case...

but carring a 100Ah battery for several hours...is not for everyone I think... maybe we need swarzy

Kind regards,
Max

Now i also know how to name new PI - "Conan the Barbarian!"

"...we need swarzy..." - Schwartznshnitzll the Arny!

[J_Player]

The increase in performance is 2x depth (roughly) for a 64x increase in transmitted EM pulse...

Hmmm...
Maybe a 500A pulse running through a 5mm wire thickness on the coil...
probably would not burn up the coil if the pulse was short.
I wonder if air cooling would work?
But then look at the depth you could get... maybe 15x?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Hmmm...
Maybe a 500A pulse running through a 5mm wire thickness on the coil...
probably would not burn up the coil if the pulse was short.
I wonder if air cooling would work?
But then look at the depth you could get... maybe 15x?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hope the EMP will not destroy every electronic device in a 200m radius

[Max]

Hmmm...
Maybe a 500A pulse running through a 5mm wire thickness on the coil...
probably would not burn up the coil if the pulse was short.
I wonder if air cooling would work?
But then look at the depth you could get... maybe 15x?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hmmmm..... can use liquid nytrogen I think... and so better if the coil will become then a superconducting thing!

No losses, no heat... nice...

That way we have (virtually) no energy waste from thermal effects and just whole energy become EM pulse... cool!

But I think will cost really much to cool that stuff using liquid nytrogen or similar things... expecially the coil housing must be made using special materials... but why not, I think it's possible.

If you sum that with the fact e.g. polar expeditions for meteorite searches cost millions of dollars... I think the MD cost will not be a real issue.

I think also 100A pulsed is possible at reasonable price with air cooling and very thick coil (the weight is not an issue).

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hope the EMP will not destroy every electronic device in a 200m radius

Hmmmm....

you can use shielding materials... I think 500A produced pulse is not so hi indeed as EMP.

A simple method to know if you can cook electronics stuff is near a welding station: some uses low voltage and very hi-current in the order of also 500A.

In TIG soldering that's not so common but it's not impossible finding welding/soldering stuff that works in the 500A range on continuos current.

That's method used e.g. to solder parts of aircrafts and similar hi-value vehicles (TIG is very expensive and not justified for everyday soldering) of expecially hard-to-solder alloys like Aluminium-based stuff (but not only).

Now... these stuff are in many places in the world... New York, Tokio etc and I never heard of an EMP that destroyed anything cause of that EMP during operations, when current falls down from 500A to zero.

Other and easier way to se EMP is not a problem...

Many car/truck batteries have peak power of hundred Amperes. I personally own some rated 700-800A peak!

Now the test is about easy (but need to be brave enough) ...find a working cellphone you can risk... then put it over the battery.... then find a fence-like thick iron/metallic wire ...say 3-4mm diameter and 1 meter long....
now (after protecting yourself with thick gloves, safety glasses, possibly mask, adequate cloths, protective screen etc etc ) TRY TO SHORT THE BATTERY WITH THE 1M WIRE !

The wire will become red-hot and melt... and at melting circuit will break and you'll got several hundreds amperes for the EMP... on sigle turn...

Then... (if survive to the sparks and acid boiling/explosion of battery) you could check the phone for damages...

Indeed happened to me as side effect of a small car repair attempt... and a thick cable litterally vaporized that way!

A large EMP was produced BUT still my phone that was just aside the battery is up and running!

Now... that's for 1turn... so say it was something more than 500A/turn EMP... if not convinced by that try with insulated wire... wind 20-30 turns of small diameter... say half-meter and try... you'll get higher magnetic field collapse but I'm sure the cellphone will survive too!

The really dangerous EMP are thousand or millions times these funky experiments and are generated only at fast-nuclear-reactions... cause of the tremendous energy release of fission/fusion of nuclear fuel in a nuke-weapon that happens in milliseconds.

One such EMP from russian "toy" (tsar) fired in the Artic blocked entire world radio communications... for about 6hours... but that was in that cold-war years... when US and Soviets tested BIG stuff in the atmosphere...or seawater, before the official ban of such kind of experiments.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

In TIG soldering that's not so common but it's not impossible finding welding/soldering stuff that works in the 500A range on continuos current.

Sure .. that is done all the time. The older TIG welders used a transformer that converted 220VAC to about 40VAC. The current from the secondary was sent through a saturable core reactor. This is kind of like an adjustable choke. By passing DC through the control coil, you can saturate the core, so it will not allow more current to pass from the main AC coil that passes the 40V welding power. The welder power control adjusts the saturable core reactor control coil to set the maximum current that can pass at the welding tip on the TIG welder.

More modern TIG welders use very large thyristors to control the current. Instead of weighing 800 Lbs, they can be carried by hand, and are the size of maybe two large PC boxes. In either the old version or newer TIG welders, there are many air cooled cables that carry the current to the tip. These air cooled TIG welders are usually up to about 175 amps. They have a 40 % duty cycle or less before the cables get too hot. Most serious TIG welders have water cooling. The #8 cable is inside a hose that has a continuous flow of water through it to carry away heat from the conductor. This water is usually recirculated in a 10 gallon tank, or can be discharged to a drain.

But here is an idea for getting your 500 amp pulse to the search coil.
This method will only work for a PI detector that is towed with a vehicle that contains the power and circuitry on the vehicle:

There are high power thyristors and SCRs used in large power controllers. Some can carry over 200 A at 220VAC. Start by mounting a large electric generator on the back of your 4-wheel drive truck. Then put the power circuitry alongside the generator. We will use a 220 VAC mains from the generator and rectify it to 220VDC, then send it to a huge capacitor bank. The capacitors must be very large. The kind used for Tesla coils, lasers, etc. So the capacitors have a large capacity, and a large supply to feed them.

Next, connect your SCR or thyristor circuitry to create the pulses from the 220 v charged capacitors. These pulses will be sent to a transformer with a secondary of 12 v. Now since we are sending DC to the transformer, we do not expect an output except from the leading and trailing edge of the pulse. So, the idea is to keep the pulse short... in the range of the time needed for the secondary to finish producing a full voltage spike, then terminate the pulse, andd watch the returned eddy currents from treasure after. The coil can be a 5mm solid copper wire passed through a 6mm teflon tube. I think a 30cm dia coil with about 4-5 turns could beworkable for air cooling. (this will be a small treasure finding machine... The 3 meter dia coil is for true LRL usage).

Now let's see... at 220V and 200 A passing from the capacitor to the 12 v transformer primary, we have up to 44KW of power moving in the coil for a very short time. But more important, the current can be up to 3666 amps, depending on the resistance of the coil and any resistor added. But regardless of how much added current, I bet you see some real deep treasures.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Sure .. that is done all the time. The older TIG welders used a transformer that converted 220VAC to about 40VAC. The current from the secondary was sent through a saturable core reactor. This is kind of like an adjustable choke. By passing DC through the control coil, you can saturate the core, so it will not allow more current to pass from the main AC coil that passes the 40V welding power. The welder power control adjusts the saturable core reactor control coil to set the maximum current that can pass at the welding tip on the TIG welder.

More modern TIG welders use very large thyristors to control the current. Instead of weighing 800 Lbs, they can be carried by hand, and are the size of maybe two large PC boxes. In either the old version or newer TIG welders, there are many air cooled cables that carry the current to the tip. These air cooled TIG welders are usually up to about 175 amps. They have a 40 % duty cycle or less before the cables get too hot. Most serious TIG welders have water cooling. The #8 cable is inside a hose that has a continuous flow of water through it to carry away heat from the conductor. This water is usually recirculated in a 10 gallon tank, or can be discharged to a drain.

But here is an idea for getting your 500 amp pulse to the search coil.
This method will only work for a PI detector that is towed with a vehicle that contains the power and circuitry on the vehicle:

There are high power thyristors and SCRs used in large power controllers. Some can carry over 200 A at 220VAC. Start by mounting a large electric generator on the back of your 4-wheel drive truck. Then put the power circuitry alongside the generator. We will use a 220 VAC mains from the generator and rectify it to 220VDC, then send it to a huge capacitor bank. The capacitors must be very large. The kind used for Tesla coils, lasers, etc. So the capacitors have a large capacity, and a large supply to feed them.

Next, connect your SCR or thyristor circuitry to create the pulses from the 220 v charged capacitors. These pulses will be sent to a transformer with a secondary of 12 v. Now since we are sending DC to the transformer, we do not expect an output except from the leading and trailing edge of the pulse. So, the idea is to keep the pulse short... in the range of the time needed for the secondary to finish producing a full voltage spike, then terminate the pulse, andd watch the returned eddy currents from treasure after. The coil can be a 5mm solid copper wire passed through a 6mm teflon tube. I think a 30cm dia coil with about 4-5 turns could beworkable for air cooling. (this will be a small treasure finding machine... The 3 meter dia coil is for true LRL usage).

Now let's see... at 220V and 200 A passing from the capacitor to the 12 v transformer primary, we have up to 44KW of power moving in the coil for a very short time. But more important, the current can be up to 3666 amps, depending on the resistance of the coil and any resistor added. But regardless of how much added current, I bet you see some real deep treasures.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
yes indeed... I think people never made such kind of MDs cause of power problems and weight issues... that requires a vehicle and cannot be good for handheld or any other man-carried thing.

The fact we haven't already such kind of stuff around is also related to magnetometers that are widely used in THing for decades now... but limited to the ferrous stuff locating.

But many THunters need iron and iron-alloys detection more than other stuff... like happens in ship-wreck search... where mandatory setup is in most of the cases having both a side scan sonar and a very sensitive and fast magnetometer... then , when wreck is located, they use rov or at small depth people go with waterproof MDs etc ... or simply cut the wreck and recover the valuable things on the expedition ship.... like happened about a gold bars payload inside a wreck some years ago.

But... what about big natural gold nuggets ? Or large treasures mostly made of noble metals (gold/silver etc not iron) ?

I think older methods have no usefulness with big, deep e.g. gold stuff...
cause magnetometer will no see that stuff... and conventional MDs have too limited range for some places.

I remember that I read many times of gold nuggets found in Australia at considerable depth... several at meters underground during excavation for roads/tunnels and similar stuff: no MD of what we know can detect such stuff in meters of Australian hi-mineralized soil.

Same apply to some middle-east and central-asian treasure locations.... rooms at 10meters and more depth!

Same for some US nuggets, very rare and very BIG... but covered by meters or tens meters of sand!

So... the idea, though not exactly an MD for everyone... or everyday search have good applications in the right place I think.

The capacitor bank idea is employed in some older german designs... and that's a good idea indeed cause in such hi power delivery at coil it's easy charge a capacitor bank to mantain energy levels between pulses... more easy than , instead, try to make a bank of mosfets to share the current and so the heat generated...

maybe someone will made one of these monsters in the next future... who knows!

Kind regards,
Max

[Tinkerer]

Hi,
yes indeed... I think people never made such kind of MDs cause of power problems and weight issues... that requires a vehicle and cannot be good for handheld or any other man-carried thing.

The fact we haven't already such kind of stuff around is also related to magnetometers that are widely used in THing for decades now... but limited to the ferrous stuff locating.

But many THunters need iron and iron-alloys detection more than other stuff... like happens in ship-wreck search... where mandatory setup is in most of the cases having both a side scan sonar and a very sensitive and fast magnetometer... then , when wreck is located, they use rov or at small depth people go with waterproof MDs etc ... or simply cut the wreck and recover the valuable things on the expedition ship.... like happened about a gold bars payload inside a wreck some years ago.

But... what about big natural gold nuggets ? Or large treasures mostly made of noble metals (gold/silver etc not iron) ?

I think older methods have no usefulness with big, deep e.g. gold stuff...
cause magnetometer will no see that stuff... and conventional MDs have too limited range for some places.

I remember that I read many times of gold nuggets found in Australia at considerable depth... several at meters underground during excavation for roads/tunnels and similar stuff: no MD of what we know can detect such stuff in meters of Australian hi-mineralized soil.

Same apply to some middle-east and central-asian treasure locations.... rooms at 10meters and more depth!

Same for some US nuggets, very rare and very BIG... but covered by meters or tens meters of sand!

So... the idea, though not exactly an MD for everyone... or everyday search have good applications in the right place I think.

The capacitor bank idea is employed in some older german designs... and that's a good idea indeed cause in such hi power delivery at coil it's easy charge a capacitor bank to mantain energy levels between pulses... more easy than , instead, try to make a bank of mosfets to share the current and so the heat generated...

maybe someone will made one of these monsters in the next future... who knows!

Kind regards,
Max

Hi,

very high current in the coil also means extreme high Flyback voltage. Insulation problems become dominant.

Max, I have a question: You have mentioned in the past that fired clay shards are a problem when detecting with a PI. The ferrous content in fired clay indeed responds to the strong PI pulse.
I have been working on a discriminating PI design for some time now. There are still some problems with certain FE targets that give about the same resistive response as reactive response and are therefore not well discriminated. But, MOST of the FE response is eliminated. The sensitivity to all FE is minimal, (see http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15441) the sensitivity to non magnetic metals is greatly enhanced.

Would such a PI detector, that has a good depth penetration be useful in the areas that you mentioned?

All the best

Tinkerer

[Max]

Hi,

very high current in the coil also means extreme high Flyback voltage. Insulation problems become dominant.

Max, I have a question: You have mentioned in the past that fired clay shards are a problem when detecting with a PI. The ferrous content in fired clay indeed responds to the strong PI pulse.
I have been working on a discriminating PI design for some time now. There are still some problems with certain FE targets that give about the same resistive response as reactive response and are therefore not well discriminated. But, MOST of the FE response is eliminated. The sensitivity to all FE is minimal, (see http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15441) the sensitivity to non magnetic metals is greatly enhanced.

Would such a PI detector, that has a good depth penetration be useful in the areas that you mentioned?

All the best

Tinkerer

Hi,
indeed was real pain... more the power ...more the troubles...

the concept I already know before making e.g. GSIV clone... but when tested that on such sites it become really apparent the device couldn't be productively employed in such scenario , if not in the depth variation... with a big coil suspended far from soil.

I discussed with Alexis the problem and realized that , indeed, the real possible use was just that, depth version, coil far from soil.

If your new PI is capable of discriminating fired clay, pottery and other ceramics ...well it's worth for sure in such kind places.

That's cause using VLFs some deep targets are undetected at their depth and use of conventional, old PIs is simply impossible with small coils near soil (like for coinshooting and other small stuff search).

I hope you'll go ahead with that project... will be very nice hear of complete immunity to ceramics and pottery with hi-iron-oxides content.

Kind regards,
Max

[Tinkerer]

Hi,
indeed was real pain... more the power ...more the troubles...

the concept I already know before making e.g. GSIV clone... but when tested that on such sites it become really apparent the device couldn't be productively employed in such scenario , if not in the depth variation... with a big coil suspended far from soil.

I discussed with Alexis the problem and realized that , indeed, the real possible use was just that, depth version, coil far from soil.

If your new PI is capable of discriminating fired clay, pottery and other ceramics ...well it's worth for sure in such kind places.

That's cause using VLFs some deep targets are undetected at their depth and use of conventional, old PIs is simply impossible with small coils near soil (like for coinshooting and other small stuff search).

I hope you'll go ahead with that project... will be very nice hear of complete immunity to ceramics and pottery with hi-iron-oxides content.

Kind regards,
Max

Thanks for the feedback. The TINKERERS project is moving ahead slowly but surely. We hope to have a simplified version, V1 out soon so that others can test the idea of a PI with FE discrimination.
Any help is welcome.

Tinkerer