Is bee smarter than human?

[ivconic]

Hi J_P,

I know there is a difference between candidates and democracy , IMO it is precisely in that difference that resides the problem: as long as you are a candidate, you are willing to obtain power thus you cannot be a good president (or whatever)
I know it is utopia but maybe it could work like this: the leaders of each departments could be sorted between a sample of population of different ages,(higher % of new people if we want evolution ) and between each group decisions would be voted.
Similar in a way to obligatory military service of ~1 year that was active in many European countries.
Of course when i talked education i didn´t mean high grade,( i don´t really believe in education either), but just a minimum level that will allow the "chosen" to comply their task. (reading and righting correctly for example )

And about bees i don´t see many places in the world where they can work without a beekeeper stealing their honey... they are all counted...

That is descent but won't work.
As long as we have large powerfull (private) companies we will have to obey their will.
Obama for example; educated, good, very descent, human, with nice intentions. Once he became president he simply must "play" as "they" want.
Why? Simply because "they" hold the money (power).
Once he start to play against their interests he will end up like JFK.
Hopefuly this will never happen!
But point is that as long as politic is dependable on money - that long we will have same situation.
Politic is bussines. Bussines is politic. To own large and succesfull company you must be politician 100%. Those 2 are inseparable in todays occurences.
........

"And about bees i don´t see many places in the world where they can work without a beekeeper stealing their honey... they are all counted.."

Oh don't worry, they can! It is just a matter of ruined natural conditions at some areas. In areas where nature still exist, bees can work and live much better and much easier without beekeepers!

P.S.
I live is such area - untouched nature. While walking through the forests, mountains, fields (with my detector) i oftenly meet wild bees. Plenty of those!

[J_Player]

Dont worry J_P I am posting off topic too.

If you fear of a revolution, be on her side and you get a monument in bronze. For your monument will have the government confiscate all bronze and copper coin findings. So started counter revolution. Do you understand?

Not really.
I have no fear of revolutions or counter revolutions. I am answering Ivconic's questions from the viewpoint of of a person who knows the history that led to changes in the way democracy is implemented. I listed revolution as one possible solution among many, but fear of revolution is not really what we are talking about. Ivconic is talking about what is a good way to remove corruption from government. Democracy, in particular.

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Hi J_P,

I know there is a difference between candidates and democracy , IMO it is precisely in that difference that resides the problem: as long as you are a candidate, you are willing to obtain power thus you cannot be a good president (or whatever)
I know it is utopia but maybe it could work like this: the leaders of each departments could be sorted between a sample of population of different ages,(higher % of new people if we want evolution ) and between each group decisions would be voted.
Similar in a way to obligatory military service of ~1 year that was active in many European countries.
Of course when i talked education i didn´t mean high grade,( i don´t really believe in education either), but just a minimum level that will allow the "chosen" to comply their task. (reading and righting correctly for example )

And about bees i don´t see many places in the world where they can work without a beekeeper stealing their honey... they are all counted...

Hi Fred,

The idea of having leaders to represent different groups is similar to the congress and senators representing different states. But your suggestion is they are no longer elected, and changed more often. I guess this is in hopes they will not be owned by political parties or business interests. It would be nice if everyone could read and write correctly -- not just politicians. Maybe this is the purpose of requiring basic school attendence in most countries.

Interesting about bees. Last year I was involved on a construction project where we had some concrete forms stacked up at one side of a large plot of land. These forms were 4 ft x 8 ft and were like a shallow box or tray that was 4 inches thickness so when you stack them you have a series of 4 inch hollow air spaces. Each one had a number of holes the size of your finger in the edges. One day we noticed some bees coming out of the holes. Nobody paid much attention or cared. But after a few months there were a lot of bees coming out. It finally got to a point that you could not walk near those forms, or a swarm of bees would chase you away. Eventually we sent somebody with a bee suit to take a tractor to unstack the forms. What we found is one of the hollow spaces was completely full of honeycombs, and two others were more than half full. There was enough honey combs that could fill maybe a 55 gallon drum. Nobody was stealing their honey, but they found a convenient home. They were removed because nobody wanted to work at that construction site with bees chasing them away.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

"...or a swarm of bees would chase you away..."


Oooh! I had simillar experiences many times! Once i fall over Troy X3 shaft and broke it on half!
Wild bees are more agressive than "domestic" ones.
That's why i don't worry about bees, they can manage very well without human help!
...
But their organisation is splendid! Perfect society! I reffered title of this thread exactly to that. Man can learn much from those.

[Fred]

Hi,
First of all my reference to bees was an analogy with us, we are the bees ruled by the "beekeepers". Our honey is the money we can keep, taxes are adjusted so we need to work hard enough and don´t have too much time to think, except to watch TV so we can watch adverts.and most important to profit to the beekeepers.
when you take the honey from a (real) hive, you cannot take it all and must let part of it for the bees to survive ...

[/color][/i]

That is descent but won't work.
As long as we have large powerfull (private) companies we will have to obey their will.

This is why by making a group o average citizens over a period of , say, 1 year, (as a civic duty), we could avoid that.Even if some could get influenced, they are not alone and the effect would be averaged.

Hi Fred,
... But your suggestion is they are no longer elected, and changed more often. I guess this is in hopes they will not be owned by political parties or business interests.
J_P

-Not changed all at a time, but progressively substituted on a rolling basis.
-Yes, not owned , and the most important in my point o view not serving teir own interests. I think this is (unfortunately) the reason for many politicians to candidate .
Resuming, anyone as long as they are not volunteers. If they are, by definition they will suck.

[J_Player]

Hi,
First of all my reference to bees was an analogy with us, we are the bees ruled by the "beekeepers". Our honey is the money we can keep, taxes are adjusted so we need to work hard enough and don´t have too much time to think, except to watch TV so we can watch adverts.and most important to profit to the beekeepers.
when you take the honey from a (real) hive, you cannot take it all and must let part of it for the bees to survive ...


This is why by making a group o average citizens over a period of , say, 1 year, (as a civic duty), we could avoid that.Even if some could get influenced, they are not alone and the effect would be averaged.



-Not changed all at a time, but progressively substituted on a rolling basis.
-Yes, not owned , and the most important in my point o view not serving teir own interests. I think this is (unfortunately) the reason for many politicians to candidate .
Resuming, anyone as long as they are not volunteers. If they are, by definition they will suck.

Interesting idea.

Just think of those bees. They all have the same idea. And they all work to take care of the hive. Can you imagine what would happen if one bee got the idea to hoard extra honey for himself? I doubt he would survive long when the other bees saw what he was doing. Maybe this is where people are not the same. Humans prize thier ability to have different interests and points of views. It requires discipline to conform to laws and rules of our own volition. And people tend to want laws to be favorable for their interests. So we devise ways to make a government that allows the most people to have their interests served such as voting. But the bees have no need to vote, or need for representatives, because they all want the same thing.

But what about the civic duty you suggest to become a representative of a group? As an individual who is representing others, suppose you don't agree with what your group wants. What is to stop you from adding some of your own ideas to what your group asks for? Maybe the records are kept public, so you can't cheat. And then, suppose your group has no opinion of what they want. For example, a group from a religious order that declines political opinions. Or maybe you are representing a group that are mostly criminals who want you to vote for some corrupt policies. Somehow you will need to turn in a vote as a representative, even if you don't agree with what you are doing, or don't even know what your group wants. Maybe you are right, that these are a few cases that will be averaged out in the larger numbers.

But how much simpler for bees. No representatives, no voting, and all have the same idea.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Interesting idea.

Just think of those bees. They all have the same idea. And they all work to take care of the hive. Can you imagine what would happen if one bee got the idea to hoard extra honey for himself? I doubt he would survive long when the other bees saw what he was doing.

I understand your point, but try to stop paying taxes and see what happens...
And i am not even sure if there is or no individualism of some sort in a hive.

But what about the civic duty you suggest to become a representative of a group?

My idea is not an individual to be representative of a group, it is the whole group that takes decision by submitting them and voting .
As the individials are chosen randomly , there is almost no chance of finding a group with the same religious (for example) convictions.and even if there was, it would change soon, as in a group of 12 one person would change each month.
And by the way, there politic by itself would no longer exist.
[/quote]

But how much simpler for bees. No representatives, no voting, and all have the same idea.
Best wishes,
J_P

In a hive when the queen dies the workers quickly modify the food given to a few larva, as long as the size of their alveolus .Just by doing this they will transform would-be regular workers in queens, and the firsts queen to be born, if healthy, will be kept, and all others killed.

[J_Player]

I understand your point, but try to stop paying taxes and see what happens...
And i am not even sure if there is or no individualism of some sort in a hive.


My idea is not an individual to be representative of a group, it is the whole group that takes decision by submitting them and voting .
As the individials are chosen randomly , there is almost no chance of finding a group with the same religious (for example) convictions.and even if there was, it would change soon, as in a group of 12 one person would change each month.
And by the way, there politic by itself would no longer exist.


In a hive when the queen dies the workers quickly modify the food given to a few larva, as long as the size of their alveolus .Just by doing this they will transform would-be regular workers in queens, and the firsts queen to be born, if healthy, will be kept, and all others killed.

Ok, I see.

You are suggesting that a person is selected to vote for awhile, and whatever he votes will be counted for a larger number of similar people from his predefined group to be all the same votes as he made. Then after some time passes, they will switch to a new person from his same group to make the sample vote.

It sounds similar to sampling methods used in laboratories to determine the composition of a substance by taking random samples from within the substance.

In your example, all people in every group will eventually have their vote counted, but not all at once like current election methods.
Their votes will be staggered so only one member of a group is counted at any one time.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Ok, I see.

You are suggesting that a person is selected to vote for awhile, and whatever he votes will be counted for a larger number of similar people from his predefined group to be all the same votes as he made. Then after some time passes, they will switch to a new person from his same group to make the sample vote.
J_P

I wish i could express myself better
In the group ( which responsibility is similar to the charge of a minister in a government), everyone will vote .
Members of the group will change at regular intervals, depending of the number of members of course.
the main ideas of this whole thing are that :
-The group is constituted of any one of any class of society.
-The individuals are randomly designed.

[J_Player]

I wish i could express myself better
In the group ( which responsibility is similar to the charge of a minister in a government), everyone will vote .
Members of the group will change at regular intervals, depending of the number of members of course.
the main ideas of this whole thing are that :
-The group is constituted of any one of any class of society.
-The individuals are randomly designed.

Ok I think I got it now

Of course, some people may wonder why everyone does not have the right to have their vote counted when a legislative decision is to be made. Logically it would seem that if we polled every person each time there was something to vote on, then we would end up with the average of what most people wanted. But I can see a lot of ways that wouldn't always work.

If you want to test how well any particular government accomplishes the objective of doing what most people want, just start asking citizens if they think their country is doing what most want done and see what the majority tell you. I was surprised to find that their answers are not always what theoretical logic would suggest you should expect. The way you proposed may actually be found to work very well.

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Hey, as long as we're in the off-topic forum, then I guess it's ok to make an off topic post to the posts we see here. So here goes:

Have you seen the Remote Sensing forum thread about the OKM Bionic 01?

They are arguing about whether it detected a shovel or gold with lots of proofs involving videos and Mineoros, along with trying to prove Esteban's pistols are the same as ordinary VLF RX. But they waste all their time with all these arguments and stories.

All they need to do is to move up to the geophysics section and click on OKM to find it works with magnetometers arranged as a gradiometer with a learning circuit connected. They will see the photo of exactly what they are paying for, and what makes it beep. No need to try to prove what a video shows. Of course it does not work to scan horizontally... the magnetic north pole destroys the stored heading of the pistol's gradiometer. I lost all interest to prove whether it detects the shovel or not, now that I know what powers it. Also, I think Ivconic is right... not necessary to pay the price of a new Mercedes Benz. $150 plus maybe $200 more for some very nice PIC and program to connect complete with display, leds laser pointer and star wars plastic pistol.

Funny how people from geophysics field don't tell stories about amazing "phenomenon".

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

I am surprised, i thought it was only a level, after all it´s more sophisticated

[J_Player]

I am surprised, i thought it was only a level, after all it´s more sophisticated

Sure...
For 10,000 euros, you get two tiny magnetometers that don't work as good as the one you can build from the free plans. But that's not all... you get the pistol complete with advanced beeps generator and laser!

So what are you waiting for?




Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

Thank you guy for bees and systems debate.

There are simple ethic and moral criteria to prove sistem suit to human been or not:

System that allowed some people acquired to itself so much wealth, that can be used to buy even the freedom of other people, is the criminal system.

Capitalism mean end of human freedom and end of democracy.

Capitalism is the criminal system par excellence.

[joecoin]

Thank you guy for bees and systems debate.

There are simple ethic and moral criteria to prove sistem suit to human been or not:

System that allowed some people acquired to itself so much wealth, that can be used to buy even the freedom of other people, is the criminal system.

Capitalism mean end of human freedom and end of democracy.

Capitalism is the criminal system par excellence.

Capitalism rewards those who are not lazy.