Is bee smarter than human?

[J_Player]

Thank you guy for bees and systems debate.

There are simple ethic and moral criteria to prove sistem suit to human been or not:

System that allowed some people acquired to itself so much wealth, that can be used to buy even the freedom of other people, is the criminal system.

Capitalism mean end of human freedom and end of democracy.

Capitalism is the criminal system par excellence.

This may be true. At least it appears to be true in today's world of global corporate power.

The idea of capitalism begins with the idea that a person should be able to get ahead financially if he produces more than others. This idea begins as an idea to solve the condition where people don't bother to put out a good performance because they know they will be rewarded the same whether they are productive or not. But if we want to reward the people who are more productive by allowing them more profit, then we want capitolism in the basic sense.

As some people continue to profit, and their companies become large enough, they can become a strong economic force on local levels, or even gobally. There have been controls put in place to prevent single companies from becoming so powerful that they destroy all competition from other companies. These controls are not perfect, but they usually serve to allow for other competitors. But what about the controls for their influence in politics? Of course there are controls, but are they working?

When people complain the common people can't get the kind of government they want, it sounds like democracy is not working, regardless of what you call the government. And if the problem is traced to corporate influence in the government, then maybe corporate influence is the area to address.

Maybe the problem is in the motives of capitalism and democracy.
The motive of capitalism is the profit motive, while the motive of democracy is to serve the common people. We could say it is a difference of two different classes: large conglomerate class against the common person class. But the problem is the common person also wants the basic motive of capitalism. He wants to know he can get ahead of he produces better than others. As long as this condition exists, capitalism will never be completely gone.

If you look at the example of the bees, none of them have the profit motive. They all have the service motive and nothing else. Everything they do is for the benefit of the hive. There is no chance they will create any institution that stops them from doing what they want to do. In order for something to upset the order they want, it requires an influence from the outside.... like the bee-keeper. He is only able to take their honey because they are not smart enough to understand that they were robbed. They simply see the reserves are deficient and they need to fill them up again.

The realities of life don't allow people to work with only the service motive. They can provide service only to the extent that they will be compensated enough to at least survive. So the profit motive (capitalism) is a built in part of survival at a human level. Capitalism as a motive is here whether we like it or not. Maybe the motives of capitalism are not what is at fault, but the business practices of the companies that are meddling in politics, and social engineering.

In any case, it looks like (to me) that the problem is one of ethics, not the motive to profit. That kind of problem is usually addressed by making and enforcing laws.

Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

In any case, it looks like (to me) that the problem is one of ethics, not the motive to profit. That kind of problem is usually addressed by making and enforcing laws.


J_P

Yes, "by making and enforcing laws."

Because if I came out of simple ethic and moral criteria to prove sistem suit to human been or not and say:

System that allowed some people acquired to itself so much wealth, that can be used to buy even the freedom of other people, is the criminal system.

this not mean that I am against competition, private property, profit and controlled free market. No, these are systemic instruments, that make system work. The problem is who and how to manage this system instruments.

We have country governments and even, say so, world governments (UN). Country and world authorities have to manage systemic instruments in such a way that could not be possible that someone is enriched to the extent that they can buy, not only someone work, but also the freedom and beliefs of other people.

There can not be real democracy if freedom and beliefs of people are goods for sale. This can only mean a negation of democracy.

Capital is no more satisfied with the purchases only of our work, now he wants to buy our human essence, freedom and belief, since that is the only way to make perfect slaves of us.

Country governments, which we are voting for, by all means help capital to this end, rather than restrict it and protect voters human dignity. Yes, as you say, "by making and enforcing laws."


This is the essence of present criminal neo-liberal world capitalist system.

[J_Player]

Yes, "by making and enforcing laws."

Because if I came out of simple ethic and moral criteria to prove sistem suit to human been or not and say:

System that allowed some people acquired to itself so much wealth, that can be used to buy even the freedom of other people, is the criminal system.

this not mean that I am against competition, private property, profit and controlled free market. No, these are systemic instruments, that make system work. The problem is who and how to manage this system instruments.

We have country governments and even, say so, world governments (UN). Country and world authorities have to manage systemic instruments in such a way that could not be possible that someone is enriched to the extent that they can buy, not only someone work, but also the freedom and beliefs of other people.

There can not be real democracy if freedom and beliefs of people are goods for sale. This can only mean a negation of democracy.

Capital is no more satisfied with the purchases only of our work, now he wants to buy our human essence, freedom and belief, since that is the only way to make perfect slaves of us.

Country governments, which we are voting for, by all means help capital to this end, rather than restrict it and protect voters human dignity. Yes, as you say, "by making and enforcing laws."


This is the essence of present criminal neo-liberal world capitalist system.

The problem is still ethics.
You cannot blame capitalism for people who have bad ethics.
Capitalism is the motive to profit, not the decision to destroy the rights of others.

Capitalism does not have bad ethics.
The people who operate companies to take away peoples rights have bad ethics.
Capitalism is not the enemy, unethical people are.

You stop unethical people by enforcing laws.

Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

You stop unethical people by enforcing laws.

J_P

People are so much corrupt and unethical as the system allows, not more - not less.

What system allow such a situation? Capitalism.

Capitalism not only destroy human ethic, they destroy human life too, they destroy health care systems, they destroy Social Welfare system, they destroy Pension Insurance systems, they destroy humanity, and at the end they destroy himself, I hope.

Making law and enforcing law are only part of capitalst crime sistem and giuded and controled by this crime sistem and can not be changed without change system alone.

System can be changed anly by us all togheter.


Here, each converted: what will win and what will be lost.

Changes will occur when the majority will have nothing to lose.


Therefore remains only password: far worse - much better.

[J_Player]

People are so much corrupt and unethical as the system allows, not more - not less.

What system allow such a situation? Capitalism.

Capitalism not only destroy human ethic, they destroy human life too, they destroy health care systems, they destroy Social Welfare system, they destroy Pension Insurance systems, they destroy humanity, and at the end they destroy himself, I hope.

.....
Changes will occur when the majority will have nothing to lose.

Any system can allow such a situation.
Capitalism can
Communism can
Democracy can
Representative government can
Dictatorship can
Socialist systems can.
Kingdoms can
Any kind of system can.

Any system can be run by people who don't have the ethical standards to stop them from taking away their citizens wealth or any number of other bad policies.
Those systems are not the problem.
Poor ethics are the problem.
The quality of government depends on the ethics of the people who operate the government.


When people have nothing to lose, we see revolution.
Has this happened in capitalist systems? I think so.
Has it happened in communist systems? I think so.
Has it happened in democracies? I think so.
Has it happened in representative governments? I think so.
Has it happened in a dictatorship? I think so.
Has it happened in socialist systems? I think so.
Has it happened in a kingdom? i think so.

Why would it happen in all these different systems?
Could it be somebody running those systems did something unethical that resulted in the citizens becoming so unhappy that they decided to revolt?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Yes it is obvious to me that the weakness of any ideology is the human beings applying it.
Call it capitalism or communism or whatever, as long as some individuals can find a way to profit, they will.
Communism is a good ideology but it will never work because of human nature.Capitalism too but it is unfair for the same reason.
When Joe said it rewards those who are not lazy,maybe we could also say it rewards those who are greedy.
I don´t think following an ideology can lead somewhere, life is too complex for that.

[J_Player]

Communism is a good ideology but it will never work because of human nature.

Actually communism already has worked well for certain conditions. For example, it did work well in tribal conditions where a small group of people could benefit from sharing their work to survive in a wilderness. This also worked in some isolated areas of the colonies during the USA pioneer times. On larger scales in more highly developed civilisations, I saw problems with abuse in the system. Maybe this is because it was not used in the same condition as a small group where everyone knew each other and could easily see if there was any abuse obvious or hidden.

The seeds for abuse of communism or any other system are built into the integrity of the people who run the system. Any system can be just as bad as another depending on how it is applied. Today, the only thing significant that changed from systems in the past is we have more technology and more people. It is the technology that allow more people to be supported in the same amount of space as fewer numbers from the past.

But while we spent some centuries making some great advances in technology, we did little to advance in the moral standards that were attained at the beginning of civilisation. If our moral standards had advanced, then we would not need to make laws to stop people from abusing political systems or economic systems.

This is why I think our technology has become more advanced than our ability to govern ourselves.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

All of you have good points. I simply can not disagree.
Main problem is in human mind. What we need is evolution of human mind. Any society based on social equality is good, yet it also can turn bad because of reasons you mentioned in your posts, those related to human mind.
I was born in Yugoslavia, multiethnical, multinational, multireligion and Socialist country. Life was very good than. Criminal rate very very low, living standards high, each man had a job and could descently live from salary.
Than what happened? Tough to say in one sentence. Many bad things happened togather, parallel. First it was appearance of corruption, than inflation and last was national and religic antagonism between people.
And in just few years country busted and took a part, country which was built up for 50 years. Now we have 6 smaller countries, poor banana republics. Nothing solved. Everything is much worse than it was. No more Socialism. Worse kind of musty Capitalism is now here in all 6 republics.
No one from those 6 republics can not say that today is better. People realized that in last 10-15 years, but it is too late to turn all back. Late and impossible. Rough and rude Capitalism came here. No jobs. People are starve. Crimial rate very high! Everything busted. Damn politicians are replacing in circles. Each "new" pigface is from the old team. No changes at all.
...
Yugoslavia was very dangerous example for the western world , for the Capitalism. Because any middle class american could come here and see that ordinary people are living much better than in USA. It was like that before 1990. So as any middle class from UK, Germany, France, Spain..etc..etc..
So Yugoslavia was very dangerous example for the western (Capitalistic) societies. Because western propaganda claimed for decades Socialism (and Comunism) as worse possible constitution, which actually it was not at all.
It was more rich and more human than others. I was born in such society and i lived for 20 and more years in it, so i cleary remember how it was.
So...dangerous example, why? Because middle class in western societies could rise, stand up and ask for simillar changes. That was a big threat for western capitalistic (and pretty reactionary) society.
Something must be done than! What? CIA,MI6 and few other had infiltrated hundreds of agents here and started special war, long before 1990/91.
How to bust multinational and multireligional comunity? Simply! Insist on differences! Tell to Crats that Serbs are bad. Tell to Serbs that Croats are bad. Tell to bosnian Muslims that Serbs and Croats are bad. Tell to ortodox that catolic is bad. Tell to catolic that ortodox is bad. Tell to Muslim that christians (catolics and ortodox) are very bad! Warmongering all arround, between everybody against everybody!
And that kind of situation lasted from 1982/3. up to 1991. Than exploded!
Conquer and rule = succesful formula!
We locals (Serbs, Croats, Muslims and Slovenians) were stupid enough to bite that decoy very hard!
Rest...i guess you all know.
And Yugoslavia was destroyed. Socialism busted. Every western middle class citizen now can be sure that it was bad and unsuccesfull system.
Not only that, now NATO has few bases here, few nuclear stations. They can do whatever they want. They are now closer to "dangerous" Russia.
They can defend "democracy" now much better, from Russia and China.
And we...locals...we lost everything (partially thanks to our stupidity).
Each country with NATO bases on its teritory should know one very important fact (keeped as top secret); that each NATO base is cover for nuclear stations with missiles pointed to Russia and Asia. Some of NATO bases are serving as storages for dangerous nuclear waste.
This was kept as ultimate top secret. Even majority of NATO officers are not awared of that. Especially nonamerican NATO members.
Secret was at the moment disclosed in Italy a while ago. Than everything was stifled very fast. Some officials were removed very fast and dissapeared.
Like nothing happened.
People from countries which host NATO bases are living in tough Capitalistic conditions. They do not have time to use brains and think. They must struggle each day to survive. "Chicken memory" developed at majority of those people. Living from today until tomorrow. So nobody is really paying much of attention about real (and horrible) situation.

[ivconic]

One thing is to live in some western society and to listen and watch very good prepared propaganda, each day - and quite another thing is to live in country out of that system (like i do) and to see facts from very different perspective. Especially if man is old enough (like i am) to remember very good what happened during last 30 years.
So..
we must talk,talk and talk. We must introduce us to each other much better. Because, now, we all are in same "pot". Nobody is safe today. It is not american vs serbian anymore. Now is we against "them". We - ordinary, descent peopple from arround the world against "them" - capitalists that holds all the power. Because we are sharing (or will share in closest future) the very same destiny.

[ivconic]

"Same destiny" is mexican flue. "Same destiny" is horrible earthquake on Haiti. "Same destiny" are floods in north Europe. "Same destiny" would be eventual war against Iran. Capitalistic (run for money) way of dealing totally destroyed planet Earth. "They" have more chance to survive than us. Because they are holding power and they decide who will live and who will die in future.
No matter; American, Serb or Iranian...if man is middle class or poor - he will bust the same.

[WM6]

I don´t think following an ideology can lead somewhere, life is too complex for that.

Humanism have to be our ideology, because only humanity lead to better society, to real freedom, to real democracy.

But humanism is a negation of wanton capitalism.

Is there another alternative?

[ivconic]

"...I don´t think following an ideology can lead somewhere, life is too complex for that...."

That is very dangerous point of view. Could easilly slip into anarchi!
...
But wait for a moment; first we must define term "ideology", for use among us.

If you by "ideology" mean "marxism", "leninnism", "satanism", "ocultism", "nazi socialism", "scientology-ism", "sai bubba-ism" and simillar ideologies - than i AGREE with you 1000%.

But if you by "ideology" mean "Socialism" ...than i can not agree with you.
Because Socialism is not ideology, it is real human constitution based firstly on social equality. Comunism (not the one we know from hollywood movies) is one step further from Socialism. Also should not be ideology. Yet...Comunism left in our minds as just that - sick ideology. Why? Simply because those who claimed to be Comunists actually were not! Stalin claimed to be comunist..while real truth was that he was worst dictator in history. Killed 20 000 000 people during his reign. That was not Comunism. Human mind was not developed enough for Comunism. Ha! It is obvious that it is not developed yet neither for Socialism. Long way to that.

So...we must agree about term "ideology" first, to void any confusion.

Religion could be ideology too. But i would rather skip to mix religion with other ideologies.

Regards!

[ivconic]

Another (funny) example;
metal detectors subjects (electronics) are a kind of ideology - my ideology. I go to sleep and in the morning wake up with same thoughts - metal detectors. Last ...let's say 10 years (although i am in this for over the 20 years) i am thinking only on metal detectors. I subjected each element of my life to that ideology. Nothing else exist for me. 25 hours per day i am in toughts on that subject. So...you may say that is also kind of ideology? Right? Than i will agree with you on that.
So..as you see; many things can be understood as "ideology".

[ivconic]

"...But if you by "ideology" mean "Socialism" ...than i can not agree with you.
Because Socialism is not ideology, it is real human constitution based firstly on social equality...."

Although not constituted as "Socialistic" there are few countries today just a step away from real Socialism. Sweden, Finland, Norway...which else? Japan was pretty close once...China also was pretty close at some moment...
Although not constituted as "Socialistic" those conuntries have very strong and very advanced elements of real Socialism. We may say those went far away already.

[ivconic]

There is interesting anecdote closelly related to this subject!!
Happened in Finland!
One car driver crossed red light. 100 meters away policeman stopped him and penalized that driver with 1 000 000 euros penalty!???
2 hours later another driver also crossed red light. Again policeman stopped him and penalized that driver with 500 euros penalty!??

Second driver was middle class working man, driving 8000 euros car.
First driver ..... ahahahahah....
first driver was stockholder, partner in NOKIA, driving 400 000 euros car!
Ain't that REAL SOCIALISM? I think it is!