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#1
07-26-2007, 12:40 AM
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Maybe you missed something. If you look at my post above, you will find that there are companies who use chemical analysis to locate areas of the ground containing metal ions leached from metal or ores deep below. This technique is used by a number of gold mining and oil exploration companies. What Franco is referencing is the fact they found surface soil containing metal ions that can be used to pinpoint a target deep below in the ground. Unless all these companies are lying about what they found, we can expect to find a trail of metal ions rising vertically in the soil above a long-time buried metal object or ore. These ions have a very short lifetime once they reach the surface, so by locating soil with metal ions at the surface, you have a convenient pin-pointer for a buried target. The problems in locating these targets from long distance are: 1. Build an instrument that can detect extremely small amounts of metal ions in the soil of a field that may be contaminated with many other signals to interfere with the sensing instrument. (Interfering signals include all kinds of electrical noise from the atmosphere, man-made and natural, as well as tiny current flows and fields in the ground). 2. After constructing this instrument to locate the metal ions in the soil at distance, find a method to get the instrument to identify what metal ions you have located in the soil. 3. An optional feature of a working LRL would be to find a method to determine the depth of the buried target. There may be some reasonable method to accomplish this, because according to the reports, there is a trail of ions from the buried object to the surface of the soil that rises pretty much vertically. Perhaps there are physical properties of this ion-impregnated soil column that can be measured to determine its height. My question to you is: After reading the reports, do you think there are metal ions in the surface soil like they say? And, do you know of some reasons why it would not be possible to develop an electronic instrument to locate this weak concentration of metal ions at long range (over 20 feet)? Best wishes, J_P 
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#2
07-26-2007, 06:48 AM
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" After reading the reports, do you think there are metal ions in the surface soil like they say? And, do you know of some reasons why it would not be possible to develop an electronic instrument to locate this weak concentration of metal ions at long range (over 20 feet)? " 1. think is possible that metal ions are on surface soil...why not. Matrix-metal interactions could generate ionic-pairs, really small amounts. Also bacteria or other "simple" lifeform that stay in the matrix... I agree on that point. 2. electronic lrl ??? I think is possible e.g. put a sharp tip in the soil, for some cm depth... and getting some data due to some accurate sensor... like some airborn-ion-sniffers do... I saw one time an object like this in a scientific reportage on Mars (or Venus?) exploring by some kind of robot (soviet union space program) that used 2 different methods to analize elements in planet soil: - using a sharp tip tool, inserting it in soil... then some kind of reactions take place to give electrical signals to onboard computer - using a kind of pipe... (very interesting!) second method was different, pipe have at top a pulse laser... (something like 1Mw burst, really powerful)... work like this: - robot put pipe on the soil exercing a big pressure - when end of pipe was inserted in soil a laser burst was triggered - laser pulse energize and "vaporize" some superficial soil particles, thus generating (also) airborn-ions - then internal analyzer ("ion sniffer") trap ions and count them - then data was sent to onboard computer for transmission to Earth So , I think that big problem... as always stated here is that you need to test soil directly (like oil companies do) or use an airborn-ion generator (of some kind) to get ions from soil... to get LRL work, cause there isn't any real , natural ,good and predictable self-generation of airborn ions. This is the hard problem. You have only two way : - or a "passive" device that analize soil directly (like lab would do but electronically... seems hard to do, require some kind of chemical binding... specific compounds...) - or an "active" device that make airborn ions from matrix to be sniffed by sensor (electronically too and easier, but with the use of an airborn ion generator) Seems possible both way... but require lot of technology!  Best regards, Max
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#3
07-26-2007, 10:49 PM
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#4
07-27-2007, 03:18 AM
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Real science or Pseudocience?
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See the MMI Technology website here: http://www.mmigeochem.com/frwelcome.htm See nearly 300,000 web pages showing gold ions being found in surface soil with MMI techniques here: http://www.google.com/search?q=mmi+g...&start=10&sa=N In addition to the MMI technology, There are over a million reports on microbes that convert gold to ions, and other microbes that convert gold ions to gold metal in the soil. These include much larger concentrations of gold ions, enough to precipitate gold nuggets. See these reports showing how microbes convert gold to ions, and other microbes that convert gold ions to gold metal in the soil: Microbes manufacture gold nuggets: http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html Electron micrographs of microbes moving gold associated with Au(III) reduction: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf Microbes convert dissolved gold into solid metallic gold: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...0_goldbug.html http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0802103513.htm Report says scientists have ascertained the microbe’s process converts approximately 1% of exposed gold per year. http://sandersresearch.com/index.php...1&Ite mid=102 http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20...15_283189.html You will find over a million reports on microbes that eat and ionize gold and other metals if you google for "gold microbe": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...be&btnG=Search I can understand your comments that it would be extremely difficult to use electronic methods to locate ions in the soil at long distances, but I wonder about your comments concerning gold ions in the soil: We have heard your comment suggesting we must suspend our belief to speculate these gold ions exist in the soil. Does this mean we should not believe any of these 1 million + reports where scientists show us their measurements and electron micrographs of microbes with gold ions in the soil? Should we believe the pictures below are not really metallic gold formed from microbes precipitating metallic gold from gold ions in the soil? Best wishes, J_P
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#5
07-28-2007, 12:24 AM
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The sort of gold ions you are describing are most likely the soluble form of gold encountered in mining, whereas the Mineoro videos specifically show instances where single coins are being recovered. So how many gold ions do you think exist in the soil above a single coin? Since the coin is not made from soluble gold, I would expect the answer to be a very round number. Whether gold ions are lurking under the soil in a few parts per billion or not, does not prove that LRLs are a viable method for gold detection.
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#6
07-28-2007, 01:19 AM
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Yes and No Qiaozhi
Qiaozhi,
True the ions are difficult to detect but any metallic gold can become soluble if the surrounding soil has the right combination of natural chemicals (oxides or acids). Now all's we have to do is find someone on this forum who is more clever than all the PHD's involved in Spectography. Randy
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#7
07-28-2007, 07:50 AM
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I understand your point about that gold ions may exist in miniscule quantities. This is exactly what the researchers have discovered. My question is about your reference to "soluble form of gold". What sort of "soluble form of gold" are you referring to? There are over a million web pages that reference metallic gold that leaches into the soil as gold ions. This metallic gold they document is usually alloyed with small amounts of silver and copper and other trace minerals, and is the same gold as you find in nuggets, and similar to jewelry alloys. I really don't see a large difference between an 18k gold ring that was buried 200 years ago and a gold nugget that has been in the soil for a million years. At least not if they are in the same soil with similar soil chemistry working on them. According to these reports on microbes converting metallic gold to gold ions, and reports of other microbes converting gold ions to metallic gold, the only soluble form of gold in the process appears when microbes secrete cyanide and other organic acids and sulfur complexes that can bind the gold ions which were originally brought into solution by microbes. These researchers have declared that microbes and local chemicals reagents in the soil are responsible for ionizing and dissolving metallic gold, and ultimately causing gold ions to appear at the surface soil. They do not make reference to soluble primary gold deposits, they refer to metallic gold alloyed with small amounts of other metals. Please explain your alternate "most likely the soluble form of gold encountered in mining" that is responsible for finding trace amounts of gold ions in the surface soil. When you say this is the most likely form, does this alternate "soluble form of gold" exist in sufficient amounts to comprise a large percentage of the ions that are being measured by the MMI process to locate buried metallic gold deposits? Best wishes, J_P
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#8
07-28-2007, 10:10 PM
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IMHO I think this thread is veering way off course. Just stop for a moment and think about gold ions. This is simply an atom of gold with one or electrons missing (positively charged) or one or more electrons added (negatively charged). Gold is a highly dense material and therefore relatively heavy. How many gold ions do you think are actually floating around in the atmosphere just waiting to be sucked into a Mineoro detector? I would hazard a guess that it's a very very small number. Now let's assume that a gold coin that fell from someone's pocket 50 year's ago is now happily languishing just below the top soil. Do you honestly believe, that if you were to recover this coin, it would show the slightest oxidation relative to the day it was lost? Of course not. So what mechanism could possibly be used to detect this coin from say 50m away? It is simply ludicrous to think that an LRL based on the Mineoro principles would detect anything apart from random electromagnetic noise. Adding to this the concept of target discrimination from such a distance is pure fantasy.
The links that were posted as evidence of gold ions being released from longtime buried gold, in fact have very little specific references to gold. Only MMI Geochemistry are claiming to have a technique for locating gold by analysing a sample of the surface soil. Of course the technique is highly secret and not patented. Apparently the mobile ions gravitate to the surface where they are loosely attached to soil particles. So (according to the MMI theory) the ions are trapped in the surface soil. Which hardly supports the Mineoro concept that these heavy ions leave the surface and float off into the atmosphere. In fact they quote "For example a Cu, Pb, Zn base metal deposit will emit (release) Cu, Pb and Zn ions.". Hmmmm.... no gold then?? 
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