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By the way, display is good to can isolate different signal. For example some signal is starting from south, goes to west. Next to him other signal or compass effect is starting from west and goes to north. With display you can exactly see where signal starts, where is his peak and after that is getting weaker. Next to him is starting other signal or compass effect and voltage again goes up, so I think display is good visual help.
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Yes this change increases the gain, it can happen that with the original values do not have the compass effect and therefore the gain is insufficient.Originally posted by abdou2014 View PostComment
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I agree that the display has the maximum sensitivity but it takes a lot of skill to distinguish good signals from the compass effect. According to my experience it is best to adjust the gain so that it does not have the compass effect, so we are sure that every signal is only due to buried metal and the lesser sensitivity is reduced only to a smaller distance of revelation, for example if a silver coin is revealed at 5m with the display and at 4m without the display this does not affect the performance as in the second case the search speed is higher without having to look at the display continuously.Originally posted by kaligula View PostComment
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I had the compass effect with the original values , this is not the essential, you said ( 4m without the display ) explain me with which indicator ?
Thank you !Comment
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Originally posted by abdou2014 View Post
for display I mean analog indication (analog voltmeter) or led bar opposite to 1 led or 3 led of my original design. I think that with 3 leds you already have a full indication.
Of course if your lrl is sensitive to the compass effect it means that the gain is enough.Comment
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Explain what is the compass effect, how does it manifest it?Comment
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I don't know what to say. Today I was at terrain and test the Franco Italy lrl and pdk a13. Pdk is not registring nothing. Franco Italy lrl at north is registering compass effect. At west there were big transmition line, and is registering and them. At place where is supposed to has buried big target is not registering nothing
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But what if on appearance of phenomenon signal voltage goes down. Few times I
though that something is wrong with my battery connector because the display is going off at 4,2 volts at the point of supposed targetComment
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"supposed target" it is not the best test, you have to bury for example silver objects in a land free from metals, best first pass with the metal detector. After 1 month or more the phenomenon is noticeable.Originally posted by kaligula View PostComment
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Thank you Mr.Carl-NC for registering me on longrangelocators.com.
Hello Mr.FrancoItaly and all.
I was reading this FrancoItaly's thread from the first page and i have decided to try my luck.
I wish to replicate Mr.FrancoItaly's long range locator based on HEF4046 pll ic.
Please, Mr.FrancoItaly send me your pcb for pll 4046 lrl.
A am asking this simply because nobody succeed to make accurate 4046 pcb which work including Mr.Geo from Greece, which also has failed to tune his 4046 pll. I repeat Mr.FrancoItaly's words that "at output of preamplifier stage in that point "X" , exactly at collector of TR4, there need to be perfect sinus wave, not distorted sinus or any other forms".
Pleae Mr.Franco send me pcb here, or via email and please tell me how to tune your 4046 pll from fisrt step till the end, and test it on my test polygon where i have some silver and golden targets at 30 cm deep, about two years ago placed there.
my email is
boem987@gmail.com
Sincerely
DubulumachComment
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I was attaching here original FrancoItaly's pictures HEF4046 PLL-LRL, lrl schematic, coil antenna and parts list.
FrancoItaly: "At the time I did only test on the test but Rubin with my Lrl revealed a buried copper plate from 25 years to a depth of 60 cm to 4 m in South/North direction and 2.5 m in East/West direction.
Best Regards"
Please Mr.FrancoItaly I need this PCB drawing, precise soldering side view, for making your HEF4046 pll-lrl.
Front view, complete Mr.FrancoItaly lrl.
HEF4046 pll-lrl schematic
FrancoItaly original wounded coil antenna 70 windings.
Zoomed view to windings of coil antenna.
PARTS LIST:
19 Resistors
R1=R11=R14=R16 = 1M
R2 = 1K
R3=R4=R5 = 3.3K
R6 = 150K
R7 = 680K
R8 = 1K
R9=R10 = 68K
R12 = 6.8K
R13=R17 = 4.7K
R15=R18 = 1K
R19 = 330 ohm
3 Variable resistors
P1 = 100K trimmer - Freq.
P2 = 1k trimmer - Mixer.
P3 = 22K potentiometer - Threshold.
16 Capacitors
C1=C17 = 100nF
C2 = 68pF
C3 = 3.3nF
C4=C5=C6=C7 = 1.5nF
C8=C9 = 1pF
C10=C13=C15 = 560pF
C11 = 22pF
C12=C14 = 22nF
C16 = 100 microfarad - 25V
4 Transistors and 2 ICs
IC1 = CD4046 OR HEF4046
IC2 = LM358
TR1 = BC170A or equivalent with low β < or = 100. β = Ic/Ib (ratio of collector current to base current).
TR2=TR3=TR4 = BC183C or equivalent with very high β = 700 or higher.
One LED diode
DL1 = Red Led
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Best Regards
Dubulumach
boem987@gmail.comComment
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I'm sorry but I do not have the pcb of CD4046 version, I modified the 8Mhz version to try to get a sort of discrimination by comparing the phase and amplitude variations. I recommend making the 8Mhz version because it is simpler to accomplish and has the same performance. I also recommend the stylus antenna with respect to the coil antenna possibly connecting 3 stylus antennas together.
Best RegardsComment
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Most of the time I'm not in Italy and I have not kept the design of the pcb, very often drawing the tracks directly on the pcb. I want to remind you that the sensor stage is made up of a high gain amplifier that can easily oscillate, so it may be best to separate this stage from that of the CD4046 if you choose this solution.Originally posted by FrancoItaly View PostComment
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Thank you Mr.FrancoItaly.Originally posted by FrancoItaly View Post
I have already unshakeable decided to make your HEF4046 PLL-LRL version and i hope i will be lucky hands. I take responsibility for inform you about my LRL experience with your PLL-LRL.
Mr.FrancoItaly help me please to precise identify all components you had placed at top side of PCB. I wll do the best i can to redraw your original layout from the soldering side. With your help (and other good fellows here), I think i will be lucky and I will make correct and very accurate HEF4046 pcb.
Please watch picture and mark all components one by one at top side of pcb, you think is valid. Than i will using your original pll schematic attached above make soldering side tracks and joints, and together we can try to redesign your pll version and publish all data for further builders.
I have all i need to make your HEF4046 PLL-LRL project working and testing. Also please give me instructions how to tune this PLL version, what tune first, what middle, what at the end after soldering all components.
I remind you i already have test polygon with some silver and golden targets at 30 cm deep soil in home frontyard, 2 years old and i hope signals are good according to your words.
If you wish, help me make this project running, because i know HEF4046 possible discrimination targets by comparing the phase and amplitude variations of the phenomenon signal is best and the most precise way for long range location.
I also have oscilloscope 2x 20MHz with all equipment i need to easy tune this build. If you think i should shield high gain amplifier that can easily oscillate, please let me know. Also let me know your adjustment tricks. This device could design only very, very experienced e.engineer and very experienced LRL man, like you are Mr.FrancoItaly.
Thanks again for your best HEF4046 PLL-LRL project on this site and good luck. And i wish you many golden coins in your Italian treasury.
Best Regards
DubulumachComment
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FrancoItaly does this simple teardown, worth also for HEF4046 PLL-LRL version or only for your 8Mhz quartz version ?Originally posted by FrancoItaly View Post
Question:
1. Does R2 should be increased from 220K to 470K, 560k, 680k or even 1M or not ?
2. Does C1 should be increased from 22nF to upper value 47nF, 100nF, 470nF or need stay the same value or maybe less ?
ps Dubulumach:
If there is inversion signal problem with output from HEF4046 (leg 2 on schematic above), could be solved easy by puting NPN transistor BC183C in emmiter-follower configuration and inverted signal by 180 degrees, picked directly from low impendance emiter transistor's leg in single joint point with 1st low pass filter stage R3-C4, and after the LF filter to non inverting input (plus sign) of LM358.
I think putting additional amplifier with transistor T5 as BC183C in high gain amplifier stage, could give more amplification and easy the job of HEF4046 ic - phase and amlitude measurement.
Mr.FrancoItaly what do you mean about my little tips ?
Sincerely
DubulumachComment
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