Franco's LRL ver_4046

[Geo]

Will try it but maybe not today.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
The better think is if CD4046 doesn't work at max frequency ( 3Mhz and more than 11V at pin 9) with these values, the IC consumes too much power.
If the stage TR1 creates problems I think we can eliminate C3, TR1 and P2 and connect pin 4 (VCO out) with C8 (the same with quartz version). You may need only change C8/C9 and verify that at collector TR4 there is about 2-3V (AC signal) although the CD4046 also works 0.5V AC.
It's possible that the lrl works in reverse mode. The phase comparator output (pin 2) it's Ok in the range 1-8V but may be impossible tuning by only P3, if the case it's usefull connect a 100K resistor from inverting pin of LM358A to +12V or ground as the case.

Best Regards

[Geo]

Signore Franco how to adjust your PLL 4046 passive scalar sniffer ??

I have already made 3 phantoms with your original pcb layout ( Xtal versions) and they work excellent).

Meanwhile i was made 3 PLL with bad Nicolas pcb (4 main mistakes have orrected) but very bad results. These 3 pcb are the worst pcb made in my life.

So Signore Franco step 1 is:

1. VCO 4046 at 3MHz {pin 3 and 4}. Pont 9 4046 about 11,4V. Maybe the value of c3 for impulse component {3n3} is too high ?
2. Collector Tr4 {joint point of R16-R17} output of amplifier stage 6Vpp (ac signal - without gold target signal).
3. 4046 phase comparator output -> pin 2 {pointX} DC 6V.

Any further advices and ideas ??

ps: O have idea to make reference sugnal with Gennadiy Nikolaev "Siberian Colia" scalar generator and many ideas about different scalar antennas but need a time to make it all.
Help or not in any case Thank you signore Franco for reveal the SCALAR PHENOMENON of GOLD and SILVER !!

Reg.
Enjoykin4

At my lrl at pin9 there is signal 11.6v p-p. Between pin9 and c3 i connected a trimer 10k and adjusted it so at c3 to have 900mv p-p. Now it seems works very good but i have a mysterious problem. If pcb is out of shielding box then when i touch the antenna the led turns on. If pcb is inside the shielding box then if i touch the antenna and the led is on, it turns off. With other words it works reverse!!!.
Who is the right???

Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Geo,
Correct operation is pcb inside the shielding box and when you touch the antenna and the LED is on, it turns off. If the led is off with target it must go on. I think it is necessary to single screen PC, but not the whole box, as even with the shield covering the box bringing the hand to the front panel there is a signal change. The best thing is to use a long-handled, 25-30 cm.

Best Regards

[Geo]

Hi Franco.

So my lrl now is correct. After some days will try it at my field test because now we have snow.


Regards

[enjoykin4]

At my lrl at pin9 there is signal 11.6v p-p. Between pin9 and c3 i connected a trimer 10k and adjusted it so at c3 to have 900mv p-p. Now it seems works very good but i have a mysterious problem. If pcb is out of shielding box then when i touch the antenna the led turns on. If pcb is inside the shielding box then if i touch the antenna and the led is on, it turns off. With other words it works reverse!!!.
Who is the right???

Regards

Hi Geo

Good news from you!. Tell me more how your lrl work and show us your oscillograf snapshots (envelopes) in different test points.

My the question: at which side of C3 you have connected a trimer 10k - side to base of T1 or side to Pin (3 and 4 ) ?

900 mVpp - is probably too high amplitude for "scalar" mixer Tr2-L1-C11-C10. Big VCO amplitde can fully suppress "Gold Scalar signals" - (oversaturate gold and silver signals).

Reg.
Enjoykin4

[enjoykin4]

Hi Signore Franco

I think i have a probelms with this Nicolas PLL4046 pcb. It is WORST DESIGNED PCB i hav seen in my life. I have not checked this pcb before i made it so now i have a problems adjusting PLL4046 lrl.



What do you think about variabile attenuator at VCO output (pin4) and comparator input (pin3) for very tiny trimming output levels ??

I have plans to insert additional capaitor C8' (1pf) - between C8 (1pf) and C9 (1pf) to lower equivalent serail capacitance bellow 1pf.

And for the end to improve output signals from phase amplifier LM 358 (IC2A) and avoid capacitive loads (parasitic and input capacitances ) of VU metar input (I have connected at output of phase amplifier) and input capacitances of IC2B (signal comparator and piezo driver) - to make phase amplifier (IC2A) work in safe stable area (avoid self oscillations) - i hava plan to add small resistor 100-150 oms at output of IC2A (need to be calculated).

Also shielding PLL CD4046 in faraday cage will great help avoid spurious interference and improve noise suppression and self oscillations of amplifier stage Tr2-Tr3-Tr4 - like is in Geo case.


ps: My main goal for me is making fully working PLL4046 LRL - working stable and detect signals without falses like is in your case (you ctach silver coins at 3 m distance and 0,25m depth with this version of LRL).

After these conditions i can try design small scalar antennas (as you know - the antenna is a best amplifier) and improve input and mixer stages. Also i alrady have some ideas about "scalar discrimination" of particular golden ad silver targets (as a most interesting for me).

Think about the differential configuration of input stage and fully balanced "scalar mixer stage".

It is all for now. Will be very interesting and helpfull to many people if there are oscillograf snapshots of full adjusted and working PLL4046 LRL.

In any case thanks for your informative replies and advices.

Many regards from Russia.
With respect Enjoykin4.

[Geo]

Hi Geo

Good news from you!. Tell me more how your lrl work and show us your oscillograf snapshots (envelopes) in different test points.

My the question: at which side of C3 you have connected a trimer 10k - side to base of T1 or side to Pin (3 and 4 ) ?

900 mVpp - is probably too high amplitude for "scalar" mixer Tr2-L1-C11-C10. Big VCO amplitde can fully suppress "Gold Scalar signals" - (oversaturate gold and silver signals).

Reg.
Enjoykin4

Hi Enjoy.
About trimmer it is connecting at side of 4046 (pin 3@4).
About oscillographs... there are some problems with the quality of them because here are many scattered signals from 4046 and oscillographs are not clear at every point.
I will try to take phot of oscillographs at Pin2, Pin3 and pin14 of 4046. Signal at base of TR2 is not clear and it's very low so can't see it clear.


Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
Watch the post # 47 of this thread, you've tried to make this change?
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Hi Signore Franco

I wil try changes from your post # 47 !!

Signore GEO - thanks for your advices and ideas.

Still snowing in Greece ??

Best regards both
Enjoykin4

[enjoykin4]

Hi abdou2014


My advice to you is - not make bad Nicolas PCB but fully working GEO PLL4046 LRL PCB.
The best veaiant of PCB is when you have one side at ground and other side use "guard rings" for most sensitive tracks for example inputs of operational amplifiers, VCO outputs, clock and data ports lines etc. But keep in mind earthing must be done in one point with high conducting conductor.

Also earth yourself while searching - using long metalic handle also grounded via you to earth.

For PLL4046 LRL modifications follow Signore Franco posts. He has made 10 LRL's till now - and i don't like to make modifications of other people designs. My principle is to make my own. Most important is to build one working version, catch "Scalar gold phenomenon" and make much more experiments on a real field.

I wish you luck !!

Reg.
Enjoykin4

[Bill512]

Bill, did you check it??

not yet George, but I think this antenna (80 turns) is more sensitive than the 35 turns antenna.
The reference for sensitivity, is the whip (stylus) antenna , but this does not mean that the "stylus" is always the choice.
Besides sensitivity, there are some other properties ,(varying among antenna types), which are sometimes more favorable.

[FrancoItaly]

The advantage of the stylus antenna is that by stretching increases the sensitivity, with a length of 30cm sensitivity it is comparable with the coil antenna.

[Geo]

I attach some oscillographs from my lrl.
1. at pin3.4
2. after the trimmer and before the C3
3. at pin2 (4046)
4.collector of Tr4.

[Geo]

Look the waveorm No3. I don't understand why is so....
This is one of the reasons that i prefer rhe Xtal version.
When will finish with field tests will open a new thread with xtal version because it works fine and the waveforms are perfect (except the display stages).