need mfd

[nelson]

Hi J_Player

Thanks for such good graph explanation on how MFD works.

Later i will look forward to build a good MFD. Do you have any ideas or do you know if i can build it from a signal genarator? What voltage must a signal generator needs to work has MFD?
Ebay shows a lot of signals generators, but some of these are not stable.
Any help will be appreciated.
Finally, looking from your expirence, do you know if MFD really works, cause i had read in the past multiple expirencies, but this confuse me and i think is good to know from some people that had tried this devices.

Best regards

Nelson

Here is a graphic that shows how to use triangulation.

Best wishes, J_P

[michael]

Hi dear J-P.
Appreciable efforts to draw these illustrations. thank you, but in one image you have mentioned this statement:
"Electronic instruments cannot the MFD signal from more than 10 Cm distance from the brass probes in the ground."

I should tell that I seriously object to this part of your statements; it's not right.
I have one of these MFDs made by Notsi(Bulgarian) I don't know you remember or not.
At that time(6-7 years ago) I borrowed one portable frequency meter from my e.e. friend to check signal output and distance of signal traveling. I remember well it could show the exact frequency set on transmitter for 2 meters beyond MFD probes, even when I put frequency-meter probes in a very thick ceramic vase inserted into soil it could easily penetrate to thick ceramic.
My e.e friend said: " this is an ordinary Fr-meter, I'm sure if use a sensitive Fr-meter you can detect sent signal so much more than this".

Best Regards.

[J_Player]

Hi dear J-P.
Appreciable efforts to draw these illustrations. thank you, but in one image you have mentioned this statement:
"Electronic instruments cannot the MFD signal from more than 10 Cm distance from the brass probes in the ground."

I should tell that I seriously object to this part of your statements; it's not right.
I have one of these MFDs made by Notsi(Bulgarian) I don't know you remember or not.
At that time(6-7 years ago) I borrowed one portable frequency meter from my e.e. friend to check signal output and distance of signal traveling. I remember well it could show the exact frequency set on transmitter for 2 meters beyond MFD probes, even when I put frequency-meter probes in a very thick ceramic vase inserted into soil it could easily penetrate to thick ceramic.
My e.e friend said: " this is an ordinary Fr-meter, I'm sure if use a sensitive Fr-meter you can detect sent signal so much more than this".

Best Regards.

Hi Michael,
It is good to hear that your friend measured the signal from your MFD signal generator at some distance. I am very interested to know the details.

If you look at my diagram, you can see that I am talking about the distance which the signal can be detected in the ground.
The last time I made measurements, I took precautions to insure that I was not measuring any airborne signals.
I set up the equipment to measure only the underground signal that was being sent from the probes that were pushed into the ground.
I used high impedance shielded probes to make my measurements in order to detect the tiniest signals, while blocking out any VLF/ULF broadcast that could be coming through the air from the wires of the signal generator.
I also made sure my instruments were grounded to an earth ground, and I took precautions to shield any airborne electronic noise from the instruments that were measuring the signal.
The sensor I used was another metal probe pushed into the ground at various distances from the MFD probes.
The shielding included the probe, which were shielded to the point where it was beneath the surface of the ground before the unshielded part of the probe was exposed to the soil.
My intention was to see how far the signal traveled from the probes in a manner that this frequency could be detected at a distance.
The idea was to determine if any amount of power coming from the MFD probes could reach a distant buried metal object to cause it to make a detectable emission from the metal.

The signal generator I used was sending out a 5v signal, not as much voltage as the maximum that you can get from circuit above.
In most cases I was able to detect the signal from the probes a few cm distance, but I found a limit that I could detect the signal at about 5cm distance.
There were a few occasions where I could detect it as far as 10cm, but the signal was lost in a lot of other larger electronic noises, as I was measuring signals that were small fractions of 0.1uv.
When I checked the buried metal object 10 feet distance, I found none of the signal generator signal at all... not even when the probe was in contact with the buried metal.

I can also tell you that when I removed the sensor probe from the ground, I could pick up a lot of electronic noise from the air which changed when the probe was moved around to different locations in the air.

If your e.e. friend made this same kind of measurement, I would be very interested to know what kind of probes he used on his meter, and what kind of grounding and shielding he did to make this detection.
Actually I would like to know how to reproduce his test setup so I can see how he measured the signal at this distance.
My guess is he was measuring the signal that broadcast through the air, either from the MFD generator connecting wires, or RF from the probes coming out of the vase and into the air.

We know that when you push ground probes in the ground, a small amount of power is sent to the soil, and another part of the power is sent from the connecting wires into the air as a VLF or ULF broadcast.
And we know that frequencies these VLF/ULF frequencies can be broadcast into the air with little power so they can be easily detected at distances.
It is a common practice to detect a signal generator frequency across a workshop using a small loop to broadcast the signal and a second small loop to pick up the signal from an instrument that can measure small voltages.
But these coils are not always necessary, because the test leads and the wires coming from the signal generator can act as broadcasting antennas.
In practice, a VLF/ULF signal from a frequency generator can be detected at various distances depending on the exact way the wires are plugged into the generator and the receiver.
This is the reason I took precautions to eliminate as much of the signal that might be broadcast through the air, so I could observe only the signal that was traveling through the ground from the probes.
In general, any kind of unshielded wire plugged into a signal generator can broadcast some RF into the air that can be detected at various distances depending on how long the wire and how it is positioned.
But the more efficient method to send and detect these VLF/ULF signal generator signals from the air is to connect a coil to the two wires on the signal generator and a second coil to the receiving instrument.

If you have any information to show how to set up the equipment to detect an MFD signal at long distances, it would be good for you to post this information so we all can know how it was done,

Best wishes,
J_P

Detecting a signal

[goldfinder]

Huge "nugget"

Here is a graphic that shows what to do when you use MFD.

Best wishes, J_P[
================
J_P
That is the funniest graphic I've seen in a long time but accurate at to technique. That "nugget" if it was real would probably weigh a 1000 pounds or more and that guy (you ?) would have a hernia bigger than the nugget.

Thanks for laugh,
Goldfinder

[goldfinder]

Have someone built MFD for u

tank you very much j-p for useful information

It is obvious you don't know anything about electronics or you are playing dumb. Why don't you have someone build the MFD for you. I'll do it for $125 USD and throw in a pair of dowsing rods for grins. J_P could do it too! That is at least $800 less that buying one from the MFD rip off con artists or KellyCo.

Goldfinder.

[J_Player]

Hi J_Player

Thanks for such good graph explanation on how MFD works.

Later i will look forward to build a good MFD. Do you have any ideas or do you know if i can build it from a signal genarator? What voltage must a signal generator needs to work has MFD?
Ebay shows a lot of signals generators, but some of these are not stable.
Any help will be appreciated.
Finally, looking from your expirence, do you know if MFD really works, cause i had read in the past multiple expirencies, but this confuse me and i think is good to know from some people that had tried this devices.

Best regards

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
I do not believe MFD can help to find treasure.
The explanations I posted above are illustrations to show ma330 what MFD users say is the correct way to use MFD.
These are not methods that I recommend.

I have never seen any MFD work.
My experience in using MFD is I could locate nothing.
Of course, other MFD users will say I do not know the correct method to locate when using MFD.
These other MFD users say MFD works.
But these same people will not demonstrate an MFD to work in front of skeptical witnesses to show how they can locate buried metal items.
Maybe they work, but I have never seen any real evidence that this is true.
And I see that every MFD user has declined to demonstrate that they work for finding buried metals.
The MFD users only tell stories of how far they detect things, but do not want to show their detection of unknown buried metals in public.

Isn't this much different than people who use metal detectors, who will easily demonstrate how their metal detectors will locate metal exactly as the manufacturer says they will?


I do not think MFD can locate any buried things.
But I think it is a good idea for anyone who wants to know how well they work to build one and try it out to see for themselves how well it works or does not work.
You can build the circuit above and see how well this works.
This circuit is better than most of the commercial designs, because it has an output control that allows you to adjust to more or less power levels than most of the commecial MFDs.
The circuit above can be adjusted to any voltage you want, from 0v to nearly 18v, while most of the commercial MFD generators have no control for the output voltage.
This means you can experiment with different voltages that expensive commercial units cannot achieve to see what works best for your conditions.
The design above has one limitation... the two timing capacitors C1 and C2 are fixed, so they will produce only two output frequencies, which may not be the exact frequencies you want.
You can make a substitution for a variable capacitor to adjust the frequency if you want to use different frequencies than you get from these capacitors.
Or you can make the switch to select more than only two capacitors, and you will have many frequencies available -- one for each capacitor.
(This is the method that the Dell Omnitron MFD uses).
Or if you think the exact frequency is important, you could switch to a completely different design that allows easy adjustment to set an exact frequency.
These are usually digital frequency generators that use a crystal to keep the frequency stable.
But remember, Tim Williams (LRL Man) http://lrlman.com/ says the frequency does not need to be exact.

If you build a frequency generator and try it out, you may find the same as I found... that it detects nothing.
Or you may find big treasure... who knows?
Why not try it out and see for yourself?

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Here is a graphic that shows what to do when you use MFD.

Best wishes, J_P[
================
J_P
That is the funniest graphic I've seen in a long time but accurate at to technique. That "nugget" if it was real would probably weigh a 1000 pounds or more and that guy (you ?) would have a hernia bigger than the nugget.

Thanks for laugh,
Goldfinder

Hi goldfinder,
That nugget is real... It is a photo of a nugget that was found in California.
However, I magnified it to fit the picture.

You are exactly correct... that size nugget in the graphic weighs about 1000 pounds, which is a little too heavy for that guy to hold by himself.
It reminds me of a story from the 1800s in California where a stage coach company got tired of being robbed every time they transported gold from Sacramento prospectors to the mint in San Francisco.
So they melted the gold into a ball the size of a bowling ball.
Then the next time they were held up, the bandits couldn't pick up the gold ball to load on their horses.
So they rode off hollering obscenities at the stage coach driver.

Incidentally, I noticed a strange phenomenon since I posted that illustration...
Whenever you show gold in connection with locating equipment, everybody seems to get very interested regardless of whether there is any evidence that the gold is somehow connected with the equipment.
Maybe this is a principle used in LRL advertising.


Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

It is obvious you don't know anything about electronics or you are playing dumb. Why don't you have someone build the MFD for you. I'll do it for $125 USD and throw in a pair of dowsing rods for grins. J_P could do it too! That is at least $800 less that buying one from the MFD rip off con artists or KellyCo.

Goldfinder.

That's a pretty good price for a hand-built and tested circuit, complete with enclosure. Rods are pure icing on the cake.
I don't think I could do it... I would become nauseated shortly after I began soldering the parts on the board.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

I am feeling strange...Nauseous and hilarious at the same time.

[michael]

Hi Michael,
It is good to hear that your friend measured the signal from your MFD signal generator at some distance. I am very interested to know the details.

If you look at my diagram, you can see that I am talking about the distance which the signal can be detected in the ground.
The last time I made measurements, I took precautions to insure that I was not measuring any airborne signals.
I set up the equipment to measure only the underground signal that was being sent from the probes that were pushed into the ground.
I used high impedance shielded probes to make my measurements in order to detect the tiniest signals, while blocking out any VLF/ULF broadcast that could be coming through the air from the wires of the signal generator.
I also made sure my instruments were grounded to an earth ground, and I took precautions to shield any airborne electronic noise from the instruments that were measuring the signal.
The sensor I used was another metal probe pushed into the ground at various distances from the MFD probes.
The shielding included the probe, which were shielded to the point where it was beneath the surface of the ground before the unshielded part of the probe was exposed to the soil.
My intention was to see how far the signal traveled from the probes in a manner that this frequency could be detected at a distance.
The idea was to determine if any amount of power coming from the MFD probes could reach a distant buried metal object to cause it to make a detectable emission from the metal.

The signal generator I used was sending out a 5v signal, not as much voltage as the maximum that you can get from circuit above.
In most cases I was able to detect the signal from the probes a few cm distance, but I found a limit that I could detect the signal at about 5cm distance.
There were a few occasions where I could detect it as far as 10cm, but the signal was lost in a lot of other larger electronic noises, as I was measuring signals that were small fractions of 0.1uv.
When I checked the buried metal object 10 feet distance, I found none of the signal generator signal at all... not even when the probe was in contact with the buried metal.

I can also tell you that when I removed the sensor probe from the ground, I could pick up a lot of electronic noise from the air which changed when the probe was moved around to different locations in the air.

If your e.e. friend made this same kind of measurement, I would be very interested to know what kind of probes he used on his meter, and what kind of grounding and shielding he did to make this detection.
Actually I would like to know how to reproduce his test setup so I can see how he measured the signal at this distance.
My guess is he was measuring the signal that broadcast through the air, either from the MFD generator connecting wires, or RF from the probes coming out of the vase and into the air.

We know that when you push ground probes in the ground, a small amount of power is sent to the soil, and another part of the power is sent from the connecting wires into the air as a VLF or ULF broadcast.
And we know that frequencies these VLF/ULF frequencies can be broadcast into the air with little power so they can be easily detected at distances.
It is a common practice to detect a signal generator frequency across a workshop using a small loop to broadcast the signal and a second small loop to pick up the signal from an instrument that can measure small voltages.
But these coils are not always necessary, because the test leads and the wires coming from the signal generator can act as broadcasting antennas.
In practice, a VLF/ULF signal from a frequency generator can be detected at various distances depending on the exact way the wires are plugged into the generator and the receiver.
This is the reason I took precautions to eliminate as much of the signal that might be broadcast through the air, so I could observe only the signal that was traveling through the ground from the probes.
In general, any kind of unshielded wire plugged into a signal generator can broadcast some RF into the air that can be detected at various distances depending on how long the wire and how it is positioned.
But the more efficient method to send and detect these VLF/ULF signal generator signals from the air is to connect a coil to the two wires on the signal generator and a second coil to the receiving instrument.

If you have any information to show how to set up the equipment to detect an MFD signal at long distances, it would be good for you to post this information so we all can know how it was done,

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi dear J-P.
my e.e friend had given it to me. I had it for few months.
it was a small box with a small display for digits and had 2 type sensor; one type was for receiving air waves that got and antenna, in this option it couldn't get any signal from soil or with connection to ground.
Another sensor type had 2 output for 2 wires with alligator head which connected to wave source( MFD probes). in this option it couldn't get any signal from air
as I had tested it frequently; both wires should be connected to somewhere.

In the test which I mentioned above I personally made it with wires( I call it ground mode).
It was essential for me to know if these kind of waves ( radio) generated by a MFD could ever travel through ground or not.
so I plugged each alligator into an iron rod and planted in ground and as mentioned could get signal up to 2 meters beyond not more.
Unfortunately I don't know more about that device technical details. just know my friend called it " portable frequency meter".

[J_Player]

Hi dear J-P.
my e.e friend had given it to me. I had it for few months.
it was a small box with a small display for digits and had 2 type sensor; one type was for receiving air waves that got and antenna, in this option it couldn't get any signal from soil or with connection to ground.
Another sensor type had 2 output for 2 wires with alligator head which connected to wave source( MFD probes). in this option it couldn't get any signal from air
as I had tested it frequently; both wires should be connected to somewhere.

In the test which I mentioned above I personally made it with wires( I call it ground mode). m
It was essential for me to know if these kind of waves ( radio) generated by a MFD could ever travel through ground or not.
so I plugged each alligator into an iron rod and planted in ground and as mentioned could get signal up to 2 meters beyond not more.
Unfortunately I don't know more about that device technical details. just knowy friend called it " portable frequency meter".

Thank you michael,
This is good information to know.
From what you say, you were using a Notsi Mole LRL 2000D frequency generator to make the signal for ground probes, and a portable frequency counter to detect the signal.
According to the Notsi literature, this frequency generator uses two 12v batteries, and a micro controller to create the frequency. They don't really say what maximum voltage is put out (probably is less than 24v), but it says you can control the voltage, and it can reach a distance of 5Km and 60 meters deep into the ground. It also does not say what frequency range it sends out, but it has 6 frequencies programmed for lead, gold, aluminum, silver, brass, bronze, diamonds and iron. Also you can program 7 of your own frequencies.

I am guessing the frequency meter you used is a portable battery operated frequency counter that has an aerial antenna and two test probes with alligator clips, that do not have a shield.
From what you say, you got no signal except when you tried at a way you call ground mode.
I have difficulty to understand how you connected the two alligator clip leads.
From what I read it sounds like you dropped both alligator clip wires into a vase that you buried in the ground.
It seems like there are too many details missing for me to determine what the signal path was exactly.
But I believe you made some detection at the distance you say.
Maybe if we learn the voltage and frequency at the MFD probes and the distance they were set apart, and exactly where each of the two frequency counter probes were connected to, we would have some idea how to make a similar test.

Also, as I recall, the ground moisture changes the detection distance too.

One question:
Did your Bulgarian locator work to locate any treasures?


Best wishses,
J_P

[michael]

Thank you michael,
This is good information to know.
From what you say, you were using a Notsi Mole LRL 2000D frequency generator to make the signal for ground probes, and a portable frequency counter to detect the signal.
According to the Notsi literature, this frequency generator uses two 12v batteries, and a micro controller to create the frequency. They don't really say what maximum voltage is put out (probably is less than 24v), but it says you can control the voltage, and it can reach a distance of 5Km and 60 meters deep into the ground. It also does not say what frequency range it sends out, but it has 6 frequencies programmed for lead, gold, aluminum, silver, brass, bronze, diamonds and iron. Also you can program 7 of your own frequencies. J_P

Hi J_P
yes, that's right.
it has no output range, just 6 preset output frequency + those 7 funny user-set options.
I don't remember exactly LRL2000D wave voltage. just know Notsi LRL2000D amp is TDA7294. I think have put the info somewhere in this forum.
After that my friend made one radio frequency generator with very vast frequency range (from 1Hz to 500KHz) I remember its' amp was STK435. my test result for this one was the same as Notsi LRL.

I am guessing the frequency meter you used is a portable battery operated frequency counter that has an aerial antenna and two test probes with alligator clips, that do not have a shield.
From what you say, you got no signal except when you tried at a way you call ground mode.
yes, that's right.

I have difficulty to understand how you connected the two alligator clip leads.
From what I read it sounds like you dropped both alligator clip wires into a vase that you buried in the ground.
No, As I wrote, I planted two iron rod in ground and plugged each alligator to each one.

But I believe you made some detection at the distance you say.
Yes, it could be detectable in all directions/paths

Maybe if we learn the voltage and frequency at the MFD probes and the distance they were set apart, and exactly where each of the two frequency counter probes were connected to, we would have some idea how to make a similar test.
I checked for each frequency, all were detectable up to 2 meters.
MFD probes distance was ordinary; 30-40 Cm. had no difference in result.
FR-counter probes distance also were close; 20, 30 or 40 Cm.

One question:
Did your Bulgarian locator work to locate any treasures?
No, never and ever.

Best Wishes.

[ma330]

hi j-p
Should bars(lrods) be insulated?Or non-insulated?

[J_Player]

hi j-p
Should bars(lrods) be insulated?Or non-insulated?

Hi ma330,
I don't know the answer to that question.
I usually see the handles are not insulated, and they are made to be conducting to the rods, so your hands will make electrical contact with the handles and the rods.
The non-insulated version permits you to connect a separate oscillator circuit to the rods if you are building a design that has both a ground probe oscillator and a rod oscillator.

But I have seen some designs where the rods are placed in insulated handles.


If I were to guess, I would think you do not want to insulate the rods from your hands.
You could build the non-insulated version.
Then if you want to change to insulated, you can simply attach some plastic tubing around the handles so your hands will not contact the metal.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

You could build the non-insulated version.
Then if you want to change to insulated, you can simply attach some plastic tubing around the handles so your hands will not contact the metal.
Best wishes,
J_P

That makes sense to me...