Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector circuit

[FrancoItaly]

HI IVCONIC andothers
your italian is good! it's better of my scholastic english!
Only few words, I can go to my work:
The 10K potentiometre to BC107 serve to vary voltage on Al Dish, it may be a sort of discrimination..

[Esteban]

Signal indicator

Hi all!!!

I use this very stable circuit for any gadget. Is for convert the ugly sound or minielevation of audio in nice "bips". This is for ALL use you want.

The 555 works as comparator. In abscence of any signal (this is, all the stages off) connect this circuit. Whit the preset, adjust in the more sensitivity point —this is, near the continuous bips— and retire a very little. If sounds at the moment of the connection, adjust it in the more good level point. The 22 k resistor and the 10 uF cap are for short timming of bips.

The piezosounder is the type that include internal oscillator.

I have built many of this with 100 variations, but this is one of the betters.

Of course, with the preset you control the sensibility you want.

[Esteban]

The same - speaker version

Hi IONHUNTERS!!!

This is the same, but with speaker. C7 and R7 is for the audio tone, at more high cap, more bass. Select the conjuntion between the both resistor and capacitor, since 1 K and 120 nF, the nice for your ears. Mantain the 47 K in the base of the first transistor. In the piezosounder version, this resistor can be since 1 K. Diode is as protection.

[Geo]

To Ivconic or to Esteban

Hi. I think that it is time to play with this ionic detector but i have some questions.
1. I stay at a small city and i can not find the TLC271 - 272. Can i use a TL072 or 082 for tlc 272 and another Op.Am for tlc271 (no Cmos)?
2. The TLC271 and the first tlc272 have unity gain and the first half of the other TLC272 has a gain of 3 about. I believe that the first stages must have more gain.
3. If i use a bakelite feed-through capacitor instead for teflon is there any problem?
Can i detect iron or other metals with the ion detector so to be easy to test and play with it?
I wait for your opinion.
Regards

[Geo]

To Esteban

Hi Esteban. Why there are two dishes?

[J_Player]

A few of thoughts come to mind about modding this circuit:

1. We know the 7555 can be subsitiuted for lower power consumption in the charging circuit. Frequency is not critical, below 1khz. Does anybody know if it is desirable to have clean DC charging the dish? Or is it better to have this 1khz ac frequency component sent to the dish? There are some easy circuits that will remove most of the ac from the final charging to the dish if this is good for improved performance.

2. Is it desirable to have even higher voltage on the dish? If a higher voltage is good, then a simple diode/capacitor circuit can be used to double, triple the voltage or more. Very low cost.

3. For the antenna signal amplifier, the TLC272 has extremely high inpuit impedance because it is a cmos device with field effect input gate. The next 2 stages of differential amp and linear amp are a second TLC272 (each TLC272 has 2 cmos op amps on the chip). There are several similar cmos op amps in this family starting with the low-cost TLC272 to the TLC277 for high precision. All these devices are capable of taking a very small signal and amplifying it with a minimum amount of interference from the power supply and very low power consumption compared to bipolar op amps. This is why they are the preferred choice of op amps to process the weak ion singnal on the antenna... they give you the best chance of listening to this signal with the least amount of interference from outside noise. If you want to make a substitution, then use another Cmos device or FET device in order to keep the input impedance very high. A simple cmos inverter like the 4001 can be used as a substitute and wired with feedback to act like a linear amp with hand-picked resistors and capacitors to accomplish the same results as the TLC272, but it will be a more simple design. The 4001 inverter version will have the same noise rejection properties as the TLC272, but not the refinements and linearity of the TLC272 op amp version. It may turn out that the 4001 version is adequate, and no need for advanced op amp version of Cmos.

There are also other cmos and FET devices that could be substituted in the signal amplifier stages. If you want to know a good substitution, then look at the cmos and FET catalogs, and find op amps and darlington amps that are available. All these devices consume low power if you don't connect a power hog load to them. And this circuit does not show any power hog load in the output of any of the signal amplifier stages.

4. Ideally these antenna signal amplifiers should be close to the dish and antenna. You may even make a small 30cm circuit board to hold these cmos amplifiers, and connect it to the antenna connection at the teflon bushing. Then put a wire mesh or metal box around this circuit board, and send output wires to the speaker and the meter. In order to keep things simple, the transistor and op amp for the meter and speaker could be mounted on the back of these devices. This way, the sensitive cmos parts could be kept seperate from the higher power noise-maker amplifiers for the speaker and meter.

5. Answer about audio at the speaker: Any audio heard at the speaker will come from one of three sources. 1) If ion signal is being collected on the antenna in a wave pattern that is in the audio range of frequency (20 hz to 15000 hz) then you should hear this sound on the speaker. 2) Electronic noise from the circuitry may be audible on the speaker if this noise gets into the signal circuitry. This noise includes the 1khz charging oscillator frequency, and elecrtonic noise from transistors in the meter and speaker amplifier circuits. 3) Atmospheric interference, which could include who knows what? Could be anything from static electricity to sunspots causing ionisphere interference, or friction from tires rolling on the road sending out static charges. The electronic circuit noise can be minimized by using shielding around the signal amplifiers, and by keeping the connection wire very short between the antenna and the cmos op amps.

6. Final thought is a question for anyone who knows: The antenna signal feeds into 2 op amps which send out a differential signal into the differential amp. But these 2 op amps also have a 3rd op amp shown below in a feedback loop on the lower of the 2 op amps. What is the purpose of this feedback loop? is it only to create a delay that helps reverse the polarity of the lower op amp? Or is it to also act as a filter for certain frequencies seen in the antenna signal?

[Jim]

Wouldn't the pinky ring on the operator’s hand hinder the operation of that particular device? In addition, why is that one fellow holding a piece of string up over the device, as if it was a trophy?

Jim

[FrancoItaly]

I think you can use TL081 and TL082 or 3 X CA3130 that have similar features. The first high impedance stage use bootstrap technique http://web.telia.com/~u43200663/bloc...tstrapping.htm the bottom stage with 2 OP (TLC272) has a greater impedance than the TLC271 amplifier, and is also greater the RC constant. I think that the differential amplifier only responds to variations of signal input, when you move the instrument in different site, and like a "motion metal detector" the 4K7 potentiometer is the preset "tuning". There is no need of retuning push.

[FrancoItaly]

The Led in input stage serves to visualize the battery charge, but I think is better to use a 78L06 for voltage stabilization with 1/2 LM358 used as comparator + Led and to use the other 1/2 LM358 as oscillator instead LM555. The voltage on Dish can be changed by the 10K potenziometer and I think we can use other types of transformers, but it's necessary to know the highest value of voltage on Dish, on this site http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.h...tter%20Version the author uses 45 V for collecting ions and we can use a transformer with a ratio of 1/5 or 1/6.

[robert]

Pleas help!

Anybody knows replacement for op.amps. 2071,2081,2082 etc...
Some projects include those....Help!

[ivconic]

Hi




Hi,
AFT 72005
"How discriminate gold ion from other ions with This circuit ? for example ,silver ion ,
water ion, And ….."
Huh! It is a question! Ask Carl ! He'll be delited to answer!
By the way, there is no way to discriminate type with this device only polarisation.
I am not sure that ions care their origin at all.Somebody claimed that, but I never
met such claims in my books.Anyway , that kind of device should cost over $milions !!!
(in that case mineoro is very cheap...bargain, you may say).

Geo,
You can test ionic detector very easy, by pointing it in
some older TV set. Almost is a rule that high voltage stage in older TV's is
"leaking", and producing a lot of ions !!! Simple and cheap test !
About op.amps....you already got answer from the others...
About gain, it is enough. Adding more gain lead You to risk of going "wild".
About bakelite feed-through capacitor...I don't think so.
"Can i detect iron or other metals with the ion detector..."

Good question...Ask Carl,than ask Dell...than decide.(I would bet on Carl!)
J Player

Most of Your remarks I agree!
"2. Is it desirable to have even higher voltage on the dish?"

No! It was crucial mistake on some previous designs ! Higher voltage may generate
some own ions, so You can easy colect them instead foreign ones, if everything
was not quite good adjusted!

"6. Final thought is a question for anyone who knows: The antenna signal
feeds into 2 op amps which send out a differential signal into the differential
amp. But these 2 op amps also have a 3rd op amp shown below in a feedback loop
on the lower of the 2 op amps. What is the purpose of this feedback loop? is it
only to create a delay that helps reverse the polarity of the lower op amp? Or
is it to also act as a filter for certain frequencies seen in the antenna
signal?"

As a filter for certain "frequencies" seen in the antenna signal and integral part of
second input, acting a huge role in common impendance....
Delay...maybe, I didn't think that way....very interesting!

FrancoItaly
"The 10K potentiometre to BC107 ..."

Preset the amplitude of signal.
TL081/082 ... I do not think so ! CA3130/40....maybe...709(MAA501)...maybe

"The first high impedance stage use bootstrap technique ..."
Absolutelly correct !!! Bravo Franco !!!
"I think that the differential amplifier only responds to variations of signal input,
when you move the instrument in different site, and like a "motion metal detector"
the 4K7 potentiometer is the preset "tuning". There is no need of retuning push."
Absolutelly correct !!! Again Bravo Franco !!! Come to think...are You posted
this project or it was me !? You understood everything much better than me!?
Great understanding! Bravo!
"The Led in input stage serves to visualize the battery charge..."
Led should blinks in the rythm of charging....good.

"...but I think is better to use a 78L06 for voltage stabilization with 1/2 LM358 used
as comparator + Led and to use the other 1/2 LM358 as oscillator instead LM555.."
Really not necessairly, but good idea anyway.
"I think we can use other types of transformers..."
Steady...other transformer...other characteristics! But transformer is easy to
obtain. Open some old modem and there it is !

Esteban
Good schematic Esteban. I was thinking to mod Classic III sound, I'll try this
your schematic and see. Thanks for posting it.

Best regards to all!

[aft_72005]

Hi ivconic and all

Mineoro company says be able detect gold ions .

Are you or anybody know what kind of detection used in mineoro ? is it ion detector ?

And I wrote :

Why use dish in circuit ? for focus ions or attraction it .

Seem as for attraction, so when charge it, be able

Attract opposite ions thus probably we can use another

Form Replace whit dish .

I have not any reply yet.
Thanks ivconic and all.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi,
I think that it's possible to detect gold in a range of some meters or plus. It 's true that gold don't release ions but it can form a ground battery with other metals and/or minerals also if they are not near gold, it takes only several years in order that the battery "appears"; this is the "long buried" effect! A battery in the ground can add its own voltage to existing E-field and then it can deform its induction lines. The conclusion may be a different distribution of ions that are normally in the air: if this explanation is true it's possible to test our ion detector with a sample of gold and an iron rod sticked in the ground at few meters...

[FrancoItaly]

my previous explanation is compatible with what Esteban says: his ion detector is sensible not only to gold but also to copper and bronze, that is other metals that are able to form a battery with iron and/or minerals. Perhaps it's possible a type of discrimination as the battery formed by gold and other metals has a greater voltage then other batteries without gold..

[J_Player]

So far we have established that this machine can be expected to attract airborne negative ions and and detect their presence in the vicinity of the dish and antenna. It appears that the machine works in a manner similar to commercial ion detectors used to test for equipment that is creating ions. But this leads us to the next stage:

How can we use this machine to locate buried treasures? What specific techniques could we use? Let's suppose we ask a friend to take a 1-ounce gold coin (90% pure or more) and bury it 6 inches deep in a soccer field, and remove any evidence that would show where the coin is buried. Then we arrive with the newly built negative ion detetor and turn it on. After adjusting the controls, we see the meter move when we click our piezo lighter several times up close to the dish. Now it is time to locate the buried coin. Our friend is sitting at the side of the soccer field with a grin on his face thinking we will never find the coin. What should we do next?