Demistifing ion chambers and snake oil

[Max]

In past times there was not so much trouble from Dicky Spy’s. They just could not operate so easily as they do today. But they were about as can be seen by the streaks
On many old photographs. I did a lot of photography in the past and did not realize till many years later that it was the pesky Dicky Spy’s that were causing the streaks on otherwise good photographs. Now days I like to search for gold using the FG80 long range locator. But the large number of Dicky Spy’s in Europe are making these devices unusable. I have not had any signals at all for months. To be honest I have never had a signal. Unless something can be done about D/S I can see no future for long range locating in Europe.

Hi Delbert,
I had lot of experience with old photographics paper too and had a number of "spots"
and "shapes" on , but simply because of the process. I never found anything following
a spot in a photo. Don't think anyone can do.
It's the same on TV shows where someone say "hey! this is the gost of Mr. Nicola
Tesla in this photo" - and the table bumps - and the like.

I don't know if any kind of (new or non science recognized) energy could be radiate by
an object - say a gold bar. For me, this kind of "reading" is like to guess numbers
to win the yearly lottery, unless someone with a good, rational, scientific explaination
gives it sense if any.

I've read something about Kirlian's effect on some books. Also that it was lot of
experiments in the soviet union on the topic. Where west-world ever dislike to treat Tesla
stuff in scientific consideration but for only some few patents and magnetic units.
There is a reason: some Tesla stuff is not scientific at all and will never work.
Let's back to Kirlian.
Here a kind of generator (tesla like) radiates rf waves in the air, using a continuos
Hi-voltage spark, like a lightening, then the object (that can be also a human being),
re-irradiate its own Kirlian pattern (so called "aura") outside and a camera can
photograph the pattern.

But then no one say that is an harmful and dangerous procedure, that everything radiate
an "aura" outside, that no discrimination is possible, that patterns are not predictable,
etc etc etc is like an UV photography of your face (those whatching BBC knows what I say).

So, I think this kind of stuff it's a kind of magic if intended to find something
(or someone). Like (at the moment) dowsing. Like LRL in general. Like remote-vision.
Like other magic of crystals...

I'm skeptic in LRL, Mineoro etc etc etc because they seems (for my understanding) poor
electronics with no apparent sense but earning money from some enthusiast new-age fellow.
If anyone can explain scientifically if any device work and how I'll change my point of view.
I'm open minded.

But, seems that no one untill now can explain nothing in a rational and scientifical way on
these topics of "remote sensing".

At least, Kirlian's effect is real though unuseful! Everyone can experiment with a bunch of
cables, coils, mosfets, TS555 and a stupid (now useless also) polaroid.
One can see the light !

"I have not had any signals at all for months. To be honest I have never had a signal. "
If these are the results, I hope you don't bought this Mineoro-FG80 !

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Dobler's stuff

Hi all,
I've read about Dobler studies at

http://www.rexresearch.com/dobler/dobler.htm

for those interested in the topic I've matured a possible conclusion about.

At first I had some dubts but then following the test procedures...uhm
Let's explain.

he said in his work (year 1934) called

"Physical & Photographic Proof of Radiation from the Earth
Solution to the Problem of Divining Rods
"
this:
"
(1) Photographic Proof of the Radiation of Underground Watercourses
In order to prove the origin of the sensitive bands, the radiation of underground
watercourse photographically, I performed the following test:
On the drilled Rohrbach source that was already mentioned, I placed photographic
plates 18 m deep in the earth, but could not determine any sort of general density
after their development. Only at once place of the developed plates for all the
exposures could some small dark points be seen. For a long time I could not explain
the appearance of these points. It could not have been a defect in the plates because
the points could be seen in different forms on the plates. Finally I found a solution
to the puzzle. I had used a double cassette for the exposures, whose dividing wall
consisted of an enameled aluminum plate. There, where the noticeable points were
found, the lacquered electroplating of the aluminum was damaged through the insertion
of the plates. The bare aluminum had affected the photographic plates when they were
placed over the underground watercourse. Further test showed that the density did not
occur when the same cassette was stored with the photographic plate in the darkroom;
here the radiation of the underground watercourse was not suspended. ..."

and so a lot of tests that seems indicate some kind of revealing due (he said)
to rf generated by water micro-wirlpools and hits underground.

Assuming the material there on rexresearch is authentic and also translation in
english is well done, and that Dr. Dobler was intellectual honest
--> something must have to produce the white strips in his photographic plates.

But what ? the water (*) itself ?

I think the response is, in this specific case (*), yes.

The experiments were done with thin emulsion photographic plates and strip of metals,
expecially aluminium. Aluminium was coated with a kind of enamel also. Only edges of
aluminium strips were bare. It was putted on the plate and then plate and strip were
covered with black paper so as to make them lightproof. Then placing a test plate near
the water flow at different distancies and another reference plate, prepared in the same
way, in a darkroom far from the water source.

Well, a suitable testing method.

Seems he gets some interesting plates there, with strange strips that impress the
plates near the, both, underground flowing and above the surface water flow.

Leaving 24hours or so a kind of reaction occourred, marking the white strips in
correspondance of the bare edges of the aluminum strip.

I think it was possible and that experiments can be preformed to confirms that this
behaviour can be detected in similar conditions.

How ? Scientifically ? Here is my hypothesis:

1. local water there in Heilbronn, Germany could be contamained by radon gas (Rn),
the region there is famous for thermal activity and salts mines
- Rn-gas is a strong gamma-rays emitter - and it's infrequent that Rn could be
found in thermal water (it also happens in commercial mineral water)
2. Dr. Dobler maybe don't know that Rn was present underground or near the surface
diffused by water were he did his experiments (Rn is really heavy gas)
3. Rn gamma-ray emission is strong and also "few" particles of gas can produce a
photographic reaction (some dosimeters works like this)
4. some kind of interaction appears to make "density" anomaly at bare edges of the
aluminum strip

For point nr. 4 I think gamma rays ionized some aluminum atoms and charge diffusion
appears in the aluminum (free electrons), so sharp bare edges act there as an electric
lens, due to the higher charge density, to deflect some beta emission also present for
same reasons (water flows contamained by small ammounts of radioactive elements) or by
secondary radiations induced by gamma rays.
This could explain why inner aluminum does not exibit concentration in white spots, and
why instead these white spots and stripes are in correspondance of the edges of the
aluminum strip.

Radon was discovered in 1898 but its presence was unknown in natural water till 50's
because it was considered only a rare radium ore subproduct at that time and in 30's.

Does it could makes sense now ? It's better than say , in physics terms,
"water wirlpools caused this..." (hey!).

(*) means not the water itself only do this stuff...but some radon or other
atoms-molecules-ions transported by the water flow.

This, anyway, doesn't mean that natural radiations, where present, could be used to find anything
underground as already known.

Best regards,
Max

[robby_h]

It is simple. Hung, Dell and all other believers should get a three-month visa and bring their LRLs here to Australia. If these gadgets work as well as they say then they will go home rich. There is an enormous amount of ground here that should have gold nuggets of 50 ounce upwards. Bucket dredges have worked large flat plains but the overhead sent them broke. These dredges often encountered extraordinary rich pockets of gold and were still doing this up until they shut down. If you could pinpoint these relatively shallow pockets then you would be rich as you wouldn't need to run the dredge on all of the unpayable ground in-between. We have an enormous area here that is covered in bulldust and rich deposits are only discovered if a large tree is uprooted in a storm, revealing the gold bearing ore in the roots. Some large mines in Victoria encounter masses of gold worth $300,000 when simply putting in an access drive. You could get rich alone by picking the ones they miss. The mine owners would pay you a fortune!
It's rather cruel that Australian advertising and retail law prohibits the sale of these devices here.
The "Hand Of Faith" nugget was only six inches deep and would have been a snap! Trees get blown over in our vast desert areas and the roots reveal vast rich gold deposits hidden by a 4' layer of dust. A plumber digs a ditch and finds a 150-ounce nugget. A farmer digs a new dam and detectors bring up numerous nuggets up to 118 ounces. A new road gets put in and detector operators get hundreds of ounces from what are often shallow scrapings. Wet claims in rich areas reveal extremely rich pockets of coarse gold in ground only 8' deep but the strip ratio makes it unprofitable. I can't understand why the owners of these units (and the inventor) aren't here instead of looking for a jar full of old coins?
Puzzled Rob.

[Dell Winders]

Actually Robby, my products were permitted to advertise in Australia. One small mining company would send me photos of Gem stones they were recovering located with a Frequency Discriminator. Another customer visiting Australia sent me a photo of a 14 oz. gold nugget he found.

"What has been done, can be done" Dell

[Chris2]

Hi Robby,

you are right! If I'm would be an inventer/manufacturer of a device that really works and can find gold, I would not advertise it. I would not try to convince people to buy it. I would do out and dig for the treasure myself. Australia is known for gold nuggets and this would be the first place I go. Only if I know that I try to sell a "dream" I would advertise for it...and wait until I sell a unit to a dreamer.

Chris

[Max]

Hi Robby and Chris (and hi Dell too),
I agree with the idea that anyone out there having such a detector don't need at all to
convince someone to buy one.

"If I'm would be an inventer/manufacturer of a device that really works and can find gold,
I would not advertise it. I would not try to convince people to buy it. I would do out
and dig for the treasure myself. Australia is known for gold nuggets and this would be
the first place I go."

Yes. Absolutely. I totally agree.

I think Australia is the best place on the Earth for a passioned THer.
Not hystorical/human made stuff, yeah, but a lot of minerals to play with...
gold deposits, gems, etc a very good place for any geo-degree also and for
those that loves nature and open spaces.

Anyway, I think these devices don't work but can't say for sure.
I think most of them are simply broadband amplifiers that actually detects nothing or
anything, making them unuseful in treasure hunting (and in anything else).

I'm interested in OKM claims at now. Read some documentation and their products seem
something better than "gold-pistols". Anyway, they claim their products have GPR, but
I don't know how a ground pen. radar can fit into a small and light detector like they
say. I think there isn't any radar at all in OKMs, but like someone wrote only mag and
other "anomaly" revealers plus a pulse induction md.

I'm interested but really skeptic on "remote sensing" topic. OKM seems, for some aspects,
to fall into remote sensing too.

Too long unexplained detection range. Too unexplained discrimination of metals.

I don't belive they can work like claimed.

Are they selling dreams ? For sure, if I have to spend 14.999eur for a piece of electronics
that finds only ratholes...well it could be a nightmare! Someone said they don't work like
claimed so I think my wallet will remain closed for OKM, at least untill they really say
what's inside the box - the truth I mean -.

When these manifactures are pushed on technologies they say "own proprietary technology - can't
talk about" or "dobler's waves" or "ulf detector" or anything but not simply explain what's
inside the box. Aleximex shows us interesting stuff - PVC handmade "ion-chamber".
I prefer a small detection range metal detector that works for sure instead of an unbelivable
rathole or worm (yes also worms) detector.

Best regards,
Max

[Esteban]

I can't understand why the owners of these units (and the inventor) aren't here instead of looking for a jar full of old coins?

Puzzled Rob.

Ask the same question to Mr. Fisher, Mr. Garrett, Mr. Etc.: why they don't became rich searching for jar full of coins?

Are they trying another systems? In 20 years, no great advances in classical MD they achieve, maybe in design, in target shower, in "hot" search head, in bla, bla, etc. You can reduce each day the noise in op amps, but the next 20 years you can't achieve significative advances in depth.

Imagine this: today you buy a "new detector", "very modern", manufactured by famous brand, but you comprobe that your old detector of "X" brand is better that you new purchases. So, are the manufacturer to defraud you? Why the manufacturer don't search in another way?

Most of the jar full of coins histories are folklore, in the real life you have a very but very little possibility for to find a real treasure. And the manufacturers provide us (the dreamers) the tools for to find it.

[Dell Winders]

What a pity. Those Skeptics who invoke Science, hypocritically rebuke Science in the name of Skepticism, and exhibit themselves as examples of,

"THE DOOR TO KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING IS NEVER OPEN TO A CLOSED, OR PREJUDICED MIND. Dell

[Qiaozhi]

What a pity. Those Skeptics who invoke Science, hypocritically rebuke Science in the name of Skepticism, and exhibit themselves as examples of,

"THE DOOR TO KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING IS NEVER OPEN TO A CLOSED, OR PREJUDICED MIND. Dell

Have you been drinking? This doesn't even make sense.

I put here my compatriot comments in PDF file for open-minded people just for think and reach to appropriate location for assessments.

Unfortunately your compatriot's opinion of the OKM devices cannot be taken seriously. He believes that the Lectra actually works, and even says "I believe Lectra search has been the best device for me... If weather be good, Lectra works as best device."
Enough said.

[Rudy]

"THE DOOR TO KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING IS NEVER OPEN TO A CLOSED, OR PREJUDICED MIND. Dell

This reads like it came out of a fortune cookie.

[Carl-NC]

Carl,
I haven't tested Rover C on gold target as they claim these detectors can detect at least 10 Cm x 10 Cm x 30 Cm dimensions full of metal not hollow. then it's impossible to prepare such gold test target, but about iron yes, I did and after 2 years of bury I got result.

Well, if the Rover C is really a mag, then iron shouldn't be a problem. To simulate gold, use lead or aluminum ingots. They should produce a response similar to gold.

He even says once he's found a shovel at 4 meters by Rover C deluxe. you know this is impossible for best metal detectors.

But maybe not impossible for a good mag.

- Carl

[michael]

Carl, about iron maybe you're right, but about other objects what do you tell?
Have you taken a look at the PDF file? no doubt OKM devices are field sensors (maybe magnetometer is better phrase), but how can feel gold(of course very ancient buried)?
we tell those feel fields above ground, OK, then can conclude very old buried gold definitely has a specific field? how they detect gold so well?

Can we tell they detect metals much better than non-magnetic metals or for precious metals a long tome should be passed over burial?
specific field as their supersensor can discriminate it.
What's justification for detection one small single earring at 140 Cm or 12 medium size gold coins inside a stone at 340 Cm?
Carl, do you deliberately behave selectively and omit those parts you reluct of?
I mentioned producer tells these detectors can detect at least 10 Cm x 10 Cm x 30 Cm dimensions full of metal not hollow, nevertheless you see there are founds so much smaller than supposed mass!!!!
Still I haven't seen convincing answer.

[Max]

searching for jar full of coins?

I can't understand why the owners of these units (and the inventor) aren't here instead of looking for a jar full of old coins?

Puzzled Rob.

Ask the same question to Mr. Fisher, Mr. Garrett, Mr. Etc.: why they don't became rich searching for jar full of coins?

Are they trying another systems? In 20 years, no great advances in classical MD they achieve, maybe in design, in target shower, in "hot" search head, in bla, bla, etc. You can reduce each day the noise in op amps, but the next 20 years you can't achieve significative advances in depth.

Imagine this: today you buy a "new detector", "very modern", manufactured by famous brand, but you comprobe that your old detector of "X" brand is better that you new purchases. So, are the manufacturer to defraud you? Why the manufacturer don't search in another way?

Most of the jar full of coins histories are folklore, in the real life you have a very but very little possibility for to find a real treasure. And the manufacturers provide us (the dreamers) the tools for to find it.

Hi Esteban and all,
I agree on many points here.

"Ask the same question to Mr. Fisher, Mr. Garrett, Mr. Etc.: why they don't became
rich searching for jar full of coins?"

Yes, true. But conventional metal detectors are not claimed to find gold or anything
at greater depth. Best results are with pulse induction but a pi can't "really" discriminate
between gold and other metals (but just make good guessing by multi-frequency and software).
But these detectors actually detect metals, though at low depth and with limited discrimination.
Manifacturers know their products limitations and also push on "false" advertising.

why they don't became
rich searching for jar full of coins?
YES: this is the point.
Because they don't sell a general purpose long range gold detector --> if they have one
I think they liked to find gold and treasures directly not to sell anything to others.
They know their machines can enrich (for sure) them only by selling to THs community.

Is like with the "old West gold run" or "Klondicke -write right ?- gold run"
--> many searchers never found any big ammount of gold, just only few grams, and who
enrich were (for sure) who selled showels and pickaxes or any other "product" and
"service" to the THs community there.

"Are they trying another systems? In 20 years, no great advances in classical MD they
achieve, maybe in design, in target shower, in "hot" search head, in bla, bla, etc.
You can reduce each day the noise in op amps, but the next 20 years you can't achieve
significative advances in depth."

Yes, true. Op amp ar fairly less noisy vs old fashioned uA709 or similar. Achieving
significative advances in depth is not linearly related to op-amp noise. We must consider
sinal-to-noise ratio: if noise reduce one could think s/n improve and that's true, but
unfortunately, with conventional mds, signal strenght reduces by non linear relation with
distance from the target.
So one must put enormous signals to reach some inches deeper targets, as you already know.
Even mounting very low noise amplifiers.
R/D is difficault when one have to do with exponential signal attenuation. Simply, this
technology can't be pushed ahead with conventional newer electronics only. R/D costs a lot
and I think they don't want to waste huge ammount of money where they already know that are
huge limitations and they can continue selling actual mds.
If someone doesn't break the wall with a new kind of promising technology they wouldn't
play any role making new stuff.

"
Imagine this: today you buy a "new detector", "very modern", manufactured by famous brand,
but you comprobe that your old detector of "X" brand is better that you new purchases.
So, are the manufacturer to defraud you? Why the manufacturer don't search in another
way?"

Actually yes, if they claim impossible results with newer machines. But many of these
just talk generically of improvements! So, generally speaking, they don't.
Searching in another way ? I think they've tested a huge number of LRL and endly convinced
that this technology doesn't work or doesn't suitable in their "brand" detectors.
Their stuff MUST work - even at low depth - because they have a NAME/BRAND to defend.
I think they prefer staying with what they already have and just follow the components
evolution -e.g. microprocessors and dsp-.

"Most of the jar full of coins histories are folklore, in the real life you have a very
but very little possibility for to find a real treasure. And the manufacturers provide us
(the dreamers) the tools for to find it."

Yes, true. It's really low probable that one TH find a treasure like "a jar of coins".
But I know many (10+) in UK find these (big) jars, with ancient silver and gold roman coins:
I know that someone sell them (10000+) to the British Museum (London) based on what the
Treasure Act law tell about. Discoveries near the Adrian's "Wall" are frequent.
Many discoveries were with simple and old VLF mds.
Anyone can confirm ?

And yes, true, I think most of us are dreamers. Dreams cost nothing.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Carl, about iron maybe you're right, but about other objects what do you tell?
Have you taken a look at the PDF file? no doubt OKM devices are field sensors (maybe magnetometer is better phrase), but how can feel gold(of course very ancient buried)?
we tell those feel fields above ground, OK, then can conclude very old buried gold definitely has a specific field? how they detect gold so well?

Can we tell they detect metals much better than non-magnetic metals or for precious metals a long tome should be passed over burial?
specific field as their supersensor can discriminate it.
What's justification for detection one small single earring at 140 Cm or 12 medium size gold coins inside a stone at 340 Cm?
Carl, do you deliberately behave selectively and omit those parts you reluct of?
I mentioned producer tells these detectors can detect at least 10 Cm x 10 Cm x 30 Cm dimensions full of metal not hollow, nevertheless you see there are founds so much smaller than supposed mass!!!!
Still I haven't seen convincing answer.

Hi Michael,
if your data are exact I think it was not an MD but something between a mag and an anomaly revealer. I wrote about possible anomalies in a previous post.

" mentioned producer tells these detectors can detect at least 10 Cm x 10 Cm x 30 Cm dimensions full of metal not hollow, nevertheless you see there are founds so much smaller than supposed mass!!!!"

It depends on many factors: e.g. for a pi detector is not different to "see" an iron thick foil (say 3mm) 10cm^2 or an iron block 10cm^2 (30mm long) exposed to induction, at say 1meter, signal is similar. What's matter is conductivity and shape/dimension seen by the coil in great depth.
Pi work on eddy currents and if these can flow in a major issue is "exposed area of metal" to induction. The more the surface exposed, at same depth, the more the signal.

One can experiment using a coin facing plate and border to the coil. Mass and distance is the same but signal received is less with 90 degree orientation, where is maximum with the coin facing the coil.

Eddy currents are flowing in a path...so a facing coin expose more area then more possible paths, then they are stronger this way. Consider field lines parallel each other here.

"What's justification for detection one small single earring at 140 Cm or 12 medium size gold coins inside a stone at 340 Cm?"

But at your distances, something else be used. Don't know what. Don't know how.

Best regards,
Max

[Jim]

Salesmen @ Work

Actually Robby, my products were permitted to advertise in Australia.

Were permitted until the Aussie's caught onto your scam?

One small mining company would send me photos of Gem stones they were recovering located with a Frequency Discriminator. Another customer visiting Australia sent me a photo of a 14 oz. gold nugget he found.

I would guess these two examples can be confirmed by....well, nobody?