some cosiderations

[J_Player]

Fools gold is very pretty to look at. You can put it in a frame above the fireplace and still no need to worry if somebody steals it. Too bad, no award received.

[gold24h]

Esteban,I beleive i understand the way your locater works,what i would like to know is the way you are monitering the small change in frequency in the bfo coil.There is a treasure close to where i live that i have been researching for years,i have it narrowed down to a one mile section of land,i would like to build your type of locater but i need to know the best way to moniter the frequency shift.You can send me information to my email and i promiss not to repeat or post what you tell me,this is your discovery not mine,my email.........stejon@artelco.com

[Esteban]

The prize is false gold medal. But you can see here another in milimetric paper in four parts or stages, 15 years ago. I found several silver objects at 80 cm depth and 70 m distance, and other objects in other place, and this isn't the Zahori. Is a passive device. The problem is: very sensitive near electric lines, no problem in inland. If you shield, no detection occurs, no at distance. What a problem!

[Max]

The prize is false gold medal. But you can see here another in milimetric paper in four parts or stages, 15 years ago. I found several silver objects at 80 cm depth and 70 m distance, and other objects in other place, and this isn't the Zahori. Is a passive device. The problem is: very sensitive near electric lines, no problem in inland. If you shield, no detection occurs, no at distance. What a problem!

Hi,
oh thanks.

Now I'm very impressed !
Cannot read anything ...as always.

That confirms my theory about lrl-guys.

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

The prize is false gold medal. But you can see here another in milimetric paper in four parts or stages, 15 years ago. I found several silver objects at 80 cm depth and 70 m distance, and other objects in other place, and this isn't the Zahori. Is a passive device. The problem is: very sensitive near electric lines, no problem in inland. If you shield, no detection occurs, no at distance. What a problem!

Esteban - you are teasing us...
Come on man, this is technology from 15 years ago. Surely you can release it into the public domain?

[Seden]

I agree Qiaozhi

It is far better not to post miniturized schematics as it is a tease,kinda mean. I've never seen Esteban do this sort of thing,usually very honest and straightforward with the group. Perhaps Alanso has made him sign a non-disclosure agreement, just a guess.

Randy

[J_Player]

This is only esteban's way to play his game on Max and watch Max drool in agony.

What esteban is actually telling us is that ordinary metal detector methods work for long range if you remove the coil shielding. In order to get the best performance, the coils and circuits must be modified in order to optimize the long range properties, and must be used away from radio interference that cannot be stopped without a coil shield. The old circuit diagrams work, but not as well as newer modifications. The newer LRL designs esteban uses may not be BFO. Maybe other VLF or PI. Maybe highly modified to make different magnetic field patterns. Maybe different receiver coil sizes and configuration. Maybe switch to antenna receiver. Lots of possibilities to experiment with.

If you want to experiment with the long range abilities of these detectors, the cost is to spend the time in the field and experiment with modifying circuits like esteban did. Do you really expect anyone with a working LRL to hand over their schematic to you?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

OK J. P.

OK on Mr. E. screwing with Max. Well that does open up some possibilities. From what's been used best in airborne geophysical exploration,I'd go with PI. Made Anthony Barrigner a bunch of money since the early 60's with his INPUT system. Now you've got me thinking,hmmm.
By the looks of Estebans setup,it's appears that he's using a concentric coil by the large round shape. I would also try a ferrite dipole for comparison. What Barringer did was many tests on known formations and logged the results in a lookup table for each kind of ore. I wonder how a 74HCt4046 using Comparator 2 would do for a discriminator,using the vco (gated)as the transmit pulse? Having a readout of +and- 360degrees should provide alot of information as to whats under the soil.

Anyone have a better solution?

Randy

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,

It sounds like you are attempting to implement induced polarization methods in a hand-held pulse induction metal detector. While this may have some merit, the concept esteban explained is a bit different. esteban is talking about measuring how an anomaly on the surface of the ground may interact with the existing static field of the earth, and thereby make the location of the anomaly detectable. His method is to use a modified metal detector to project waves into the atmosphere and sense the direction of the anomaly by using a sensitive unshielded receiver coil (or antenna) to find the direction. A false signal behind the sensor is eliminated by shielding from the operator's body as well as a "reflector" style shield in the hand held electronics. Thus the hand held locator will only have a view in front of it. His method is to broadcast an oscillating magnetic wave (which is in reality an electromagnetic wave), but perhaps either a coil or antenna could work to send out a signal. Most of the existing hand held LRL methods I have seen so far use magnetic coils for broadcasting, while the receivers are coils, antennas and other types of sensors.

These methods esteban talked about do not involve inducing a polarization charge to the buried target. (That is unless his method depends on the signal penetrating into the ground). He is measuring some faint anomalies at the surface and above the ground.

Back to induced polarization methods... it would be nice to hear more details of the method you described above. It seems this is a bit different than the common ground probe methods to measure phase angle.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

Esteban vs Induced Polarization

So he's sending out a carrier wave eh? Well yeah I could do that I guess. Nihil mentioned Esteban using PI in post #152 of this thread so that's what I took off on.

The only difference between PI and IP is IP only used rods in the ground and measures the chargebility,the apparent
resistivity and the increase of conductivity due to minerlization. IP just measures the transient current and is strictly an EM wave.

So I'll have to think about how to do what our elusive friend Esteban is doing,a bit of chin scratching is in order here.

Randy

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,

An interesting similarity to PI and IP is how both measure properties of a received signal after a time delay following an initial pulse.

In a IP designs, we wait to see a phase angle caused by subterranean capacitance effect due to buried objects. In PI, we wait to see how the decay curve looks in the received signal from induced eddy currents in the target.

Now suppose we took a normal PI detector and mod the search coil to maximize it's broadcasting ability. ie: remove any shielding and optimize the coil and driving circuitry for maximum magnetic field. It may even be possible to arrange an concurrent electric pulse transmission with a 90 degree phase angle, based on an arbitrary frequency, since we are not talking about a continuous sine wave.

A separate receive coil could be used to watch a number of received signals. It seems to me the receive coil could work either as part of the hand held gun, or also as a separate hand held coil from the transmitter to survey the field in front of where the transmitter is aimed. In any case, the receive coil would also need some heavy modding, because it is no longer looking for an easily sensed distorted magnetic field. The target is far away, and any distortion will be minute in the midst of a lot of noise. The only help we get is the hope that the buried target has produced an area of ground with trace ionization that covers a large enough area to influence the received wave to a measurable degree. This may not be as hard as we think, when considering the kind of natural anomalies that cause perceptible changes in radio reception as we move the receiver around in a field.

Also, consider some of the variations in the signal you could measure.
We already know the shape of the decay curve is used in PI applications in order to partially identify certain targets. Also the pulse delay adjustment is used to make certain targets visible, depending on the coil size and other parameters. There are newer designs that are looking at the Rx signal before the pulse is complete in order to provide much more information about the type of metal that has been detected. Test reports are beginning to show these new PI designs are able to discriminate better than VLF. You should be able to read about these new methods in the US patent office within the next few months.

If a PI machine can be optimized for long range detection in air, then it seems these same new discrimination methods may be applicable to treasure hunting.

This is only one concept for LRL, based on the experimenting esteban has talked about. There are other methods which include modifications to IP, and a few others.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

This is only esteban's way to play his game on Max and watch Max drool in agony.

Hi,
Which agony ?
Of who ?

Maybe his devices just don't work and he's playing a role in a kind of science fiction here !

BTW he said many times that what he calls "passive" devices use electrostatics (microvoltmeters, zahori etc etc etc) or just are modified BFO.

Then also negated that there is any HALO advantage in LRL technology... that is like noise, read his post to me. But Nihil said that, instead, he found 30 something copper coins due to HALO using his LRL !

And at the end I still think Nihil=Esteban, Esteban=Nihil ... so it's the halo an advandage or a disvantage ????

But come back to principles he claimed for "passive" devices...

The first all we know that doesn't work. That any Wal*Mart detector could win in that challenges ! You could find has many power lines you want... as many TV CRTs ON...

The second (BFO) is e.g. measuring a 3ppm or 30ppm frequency variation in e.g. an 80KHz or 300KHz running frequency with an homemade/garagemade detector.

Do you still think it/them work !

You trust Esteban more than you should for me ! And all the other nicknames here talking about ions, BFO and detection of coins from 1mile away!

The funny miniature-schematic he posted again, for me, say everything about his goodwill of make you understand how things really go in his "boxes".

I mean that these don't work.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,

If there's no drooling in agony, then why do you keep begging him?
Don't you wish esteban would stop laughing at you?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi Max,

If there's no drooling in agony, then why do you keep begging him?
Don't you wish esteban would stop laughing at you?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
cause I wanna see his schematic like many others. But my interest is just about the crap inside.

He can laugh as he wants but I think that, even if he'll never admit here, his bursts of laughter are for people that still belive he found coins or other stuff using that craps.

That's the point.

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Then also negated that there is any HALO advantage in LRL technology... that is like noise, read his post to me. But Nihil said that, instead, he found 30 something copper coins due to HALO using his LRL !

False!!! NRM said that around 34 coins look as copper migration, not the same, no light in it! So, you don't understand what you're reading!

Hi,
cause I wanna see his schematic like many others. But my interest is just about the crap inside.

Who knows! You!!! If inside there are a regular MD (simple) with additions, is more logic for you?

The second (BFO) is e.g. measuring a 3ppm or 30ppm frequency variation in e.g. an 80KHz or 300KHz running frequency with an homemade/garagemade detector.

One more time, these are your words, no mine. I any part I'm speaking about 3 ppm in X Khz. I'm talking about a superelevation in signal or voltage in the coil. This is the THIRD TIME I explain the same. Also, in very old posts you never read, I affirm the same. Do you are blind? So, with this prejudice you're not able for to build an electronic LRL (or medium range) MD. Include based on regular MD.

Max, your problem is this: you wish to believe, but you, first, feel shane because you want stay in "the world of logic", this mean, you are scare if the scientific world said of you: "this is crazy". The same what happens when, in the past, some persons affirm that the Earth is round, when all assume that is square.