some cosiderations

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

- it's reasonable that ions or other signals they go 100 m. but not in the air, there is a better connection... the ground ! And so not a long range locator but a one meter locator or less it's necessary...

- as Esteban says many systems are good for the job, magnetic, electric, infrared...

- perhaps the circuit closing it's the body...

- Esteban's instruments and mineoro have a metallic handle ?

- transmitter coil is a sort of pump for a receiver coil ?

I'm studyng similar instruments but one problem it's gold targets buried for long time...

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,
Nice to see you back.

I'm studyng similar instruments but one problem it's gold targets buried for long time...

You will find many locations for testing instruments on gold buried for long time at the cemetery. But not good for making a recovery there.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAVER

very good idea but it's very difficult for verification !!!

[Max]

Hi J PLAVER

very good idea but it's very difficult for verification !!!

Hi Franco,
and what about old ruins of churchs ...related backyards etc ? I think you could find long time buried gold in similar places too, not only in cemeteries.

You could dig stuff without digging out bones...

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,
[quote=Franco]- it's reasonable that ions or other signals they go 100 m. but not in the air, there is a better connection... the ground ! And so not a long range locator but a one meter locator or less it's necessary...[quote]

I found a science website that agrees with your idea. They show how gold ions move in the ground and in the air too. When I study this science, I think it is maybe easier to find the ions after they reach the air, because no digging or ground probes necessary. The ions will collect in a convenient cloud and wait for you to find them 2 meters above the hidden treasure. Maybe you can build Ivconic's ion detector to find these ion clouds. See picture below showing ion cloud hovering above treasure from science website.

Best Wishes,
J_P

[Max]

[quote=J_Player;55841]Hi Franco,
[quote=Franco]- it's reasonable that ions or other signals they go 100 m. but not in the air, there is a better connection... the ground ! And so not a long range locator but a one meter locator or less it's necessary...

I found a science website that agrees with your idea. They show how gold ions move in the ground and in the air too. When I study this science, I think it is maybe easier to find the ions after they reach the air, because no digging or ground probes necessary. The ions will collect in a convenient cloud and wait for you to find them 2 meters above the hidden treasure. Maybe you can build Ivconic's ion detector to find these ion clouds. See picture below showing ion cloud hovering above treasure from science website.

Best Wishes,
J_P

Hi J_Player,
I have dubts on airborn ions migration from in soil solution. I think it is not possible have them in normal conditions and there must be some external condition(s) contribute on their creation...
E.g. a ligthening could maybe create a really small local amount of them from the matrix , if there are gold compounds inside matrix but their duration in free air could't be great and they would have a short life-span. Also in this case you would have much more stuff floating in the sorrounding air too.

I think that gold ionic detection in air is fake stuff cause nobody could trap gold ions (in any way) cause simply there aren't !

Is there some explaination of how they are supposed to be or how their migration from matrix is generated ?

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Max,
I have doubts too. What I learn in the university tells me only a small unmeasurable trace of gold ion might find its way into the soil if lots of water and maybe chlorine salts, but not likely in air - same idea as you say. But hey, science is science! You can argue politics, but when science comes, I try to pay attention. Maybe this website is for new scientific concepts. This website has lots of new scientific discovery from the past 50 years. Good place to learn new things. You can read more here: http://www.mineoro.com/goldDetectors/field01.php

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

- it's reasonable that ions or other signals they go 100 m. but not in the air, there is a better connection... the ground ! And so not a long range locator but a one meter locator or less it's necessary...

;55841]Hi Franco, I found a science website that agrees with your idea. They show how gold ions move in the ground and in the air too. When I study this science, I think it is maybe easier to find the ions after they reach the air, because no digging or ground probes necessary. The ions will collect in a convenient cloud and wait for you to find them 2 meters above the hidden treasure. Maybe you can build Ivconic's ion detector to find these ion clouds. See picture below showing ion cloud hovering above treasure from science website.

Best Wishes,
J_P

This is not from a science website.
This is pseudoscientific rubbish from Mineoro.

[J_Player]

You mean this is fake science? ...lies?

Hi Qiaozhi,

I am so sorry, I wish this was a true science, then I could find gold ions in a convenient cloud to tell me where is the treasure. Grrrrrrr.....!

Ok, I will look for some real science for ions in the ground. Stay tuned.

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Real science or snake oil? - Is long time buried gold the same as fresh gold?

Gold ions in the ground? Interesting research...

In recent decades scientists have been studying strange micro-organisms that move gold and other metals through the soil. These microscopic bacteria and fungi can convert dissolved gold into solid gold, and visa versa. There are several mines where gold nuggets were found to have been manufactured by microbes that converted gold ions dissolved in the soil into metallic gold, precipitated on the face of a growing nugget.

Does this sound hard to believe? If it is true, it means there are gold ions in the soil, and not just a few unmeasurable ions, but enough to make nuggets from.

According to geomicrobiologist Frank Reith, "...the precipitation of gold by micro-organisms, and thus in the biomineralisation of gold, which as recent evidence suggests has led to the formation of some of the world largest gold deposits."

But in addition to micro-organisms precipitating metallic gold, there are microbes that ionize and dissolve gold:

"In soils with high contents of organic matter heterotrophic bacteria and fungi appear to dominate the gold dissolution by excreting amino acids, low molecular weight organic acids (LMWOAs), cyanide or organic sulfur compounds. These molecules were shown to have the ability to dissolve native gold and act as complexing agents for the resulting gold ions."

Wet soil samples were incubated with these microbes, then gold pellets were added to the soil. After 20-30 days of incubation, up to 3 ppm of gold was found in solution, compared to none measurable in the sterilized soil samples with gold pellets.

Now, how do atoms from a gold pellet get into solution? They have to become ionized first! Thus it cannot be true that buried gold does not form ions. We are talking about small amounts (3ppm), But this is the amount measured in some small sample test areas after a month in the ground. The investigations into mine sites from the real world show that this process can happen on a much larger scale, creating nuggets that are very pure where microbes precipitated the gold (98% and better).

Not all gold nuggets are created by microbes. Many are formed with cooling molten rock masses. The gold formed by microbes is derived from these primary gold sources in the ground. But it has been discovered that there are many nuggets which have a rich outer gold shell, and a lower purity gold in the center. In some cases these were nuggets formed by molten gold cooling, then later, microbes deposited a layer of higher purity gold on the top surfaces.

Because it takes some time for these microbes to ionize buried gold metal and put it in solution with the surrounding soil, it tells us that long time buried gold is different than fresh gold that was recently put in the ground. In addition, there are microbes that will attack the other metals alloyed with gold like silver, copper, platinum, etc. According to these studies, some soil is richer in these gold-eating microbes than other soil, so we can expect some soils to show a greater difference between fresh gold and long time buried gold.

In the case of the other microbes that convert the ions back into gold metal, we will find gold nuggets that have ions around them being converted into metallic gold to precipitate and grow the nugget. These new gold nuggets may have similar halo properties as gold that is decomposing.

Check here to read this article:

http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf

Here are more web pages with information about gold microbes:

Microbes manufacture gold nuggets: http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html

Electron micrographs of microbes moving gold associated with Au(III) reduction:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf

Microbes convert dissolved gold into solid metallic gold:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0830_goldbug.html

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060802103513.htm

Report says scientists have ascertained the microbe’s process converts approximately 1% of exposed gold per year.

http://sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1171&Itemid=102

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200607/15/eng20060715_283189.html

You will find thousands more reports on microbes that eat gold and other metals if you google for "gold microbe": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...be&btnG=Search

So what do you think? Do these microbes help to locate long time buried gold and other non-ferrous metals?
Is this a good case for "the halo effect" on long-time buried gold and coins?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
It's very interesting what J PLAYER says, I think this is a scientific argument for long range detection. As very few gold ions, I suppose, are converted from metal gold, very small current, PicoAmpere range or less, are generated and it justifies the use of instruments based of very high impedance input. The 100 V/meter atmospheric voltage perhaps it suggests
the use of an equal artificial voltage but with opposite polarity to cancel the obstacle... by using a RF magnetic field we can to push ions from ground to the instrument... Well I think it's the description of Esteban's pistol !!!

[Max]

Gold ions in the ground? Interesting research...

In recent decades scientists have been studying strange micro-organisms that move gold and other metals through the soil. These microscopic bacteria and fungi can convert dissolved gold into solid gold, and visa versa. There are several mines where gold nuggets were found to have been manufactured by microbes that converted gold ions dissolved in the soil into metallic gold, precipitated on the face of a growing nugget.

Does this sound hard to believe? If it is true, it means there are gold ions in the soil, and not just a few unmeasurable ions, but enough to make nuggets from.

According to geomicrobiologist Frank Reith, "...the precipitation of gold by micro-organisms, and thus in the biomineralisation of gold, which as recent evidence suggests has led to the formation of some of the world largest gold deposits."

But in addition to micro-organisms precipitating metallic gold, there are microbes that ionize and dissolve gold:

"In soils with high contents of organic matter heterotrophic bacteria and fungi appear to dominate the gold dissolution by excreting amino acids, low molecular weight organic acids (LMWOAs), cyanide or organic sulfur compounds. These molecules were shown to have the ability to dissolve native gold and act as complexing agents for the resulting gold ions."

Wet soil samples were incubated with these microbes, then gold pellets were added to the soil. After 20-30 days of incubation, up to 3 ppm of gold was found in solution, compared to none measurable in the sterilized soil samples with gold pellets.

Now, how do atoms from a gold pellet get into solution? They have to become ionized first! Thus it cannot be true that buried gold does not form ions. We are talking about small amounts (3ppm), But this is the amount measured in some small sample test areas after a month in the ground. The investigations into mine sites from the real world show that this process can happen on a much larger scale, creating nuggets that are very pure where microbes precipitated the gold (98% and better).

Not all gold nuggets are created by microbes. Many are formed with cooling molten rock masses. The gold formed by microbes is derived from these primary gold sources in the ground. But it has been discovered that there are many nuggets which have a rich outer gold shell, and a lower purity gold in the center. In some cases these were nuggets formed by molten gold cooling, then later, microbes deposited a layer of higher purity gold on the top surfaces.

Because it takes some time for these microbes to ionize buried gold metal and put it in solution with the surrounding soil, it tells us that long time buried gold is different than fresh gold that was recently put in the ground. In addition, there are microbes that will attack the other metals alloyed with gold like silver, copper, platinum, etc. According to these studies, some soil is richer in these gold-eating microbes than other soil, so we can expect some soils to show a greater difference between fresh gold and long time buried gold.

In the case of the other microbes that convert the ions back into gold metal, we will find gold nuggets that have ions around them being converted into metallic gold to precipitate and grow the nugget. These new gold nuggets may have similar halo properties as gold that is decomposing.

Check here to read this article:

http://crcleme.org.au/NewsEvents/News/Archive/2004/AUSIMMReith.pdf

Here are more web pages with information about gold microbes:

Microbes manufacture gold nuggets: http://www.geotimes.org/sept06/NN_Microbes.html

Electron micrographs of microbes moving gold associated with Au(III) reduction:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/7/3275.pdf

Microbes convert dissolved gold into solid metallic gold:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0830_goldbug.html

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1032376.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060802103513.htm

Report says scientists have ascertained the microbe’s process converts approximately 1% of exposed gold per year.

http://sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1171&Itemid=102

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev32_3/amazing.htm

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200607/15/eng20060715_283189.html

You will find thousands more reports on microbes that eat gold and other metals if you google for "gold microbe": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...be&btnG=Search

So what do you think? Do these microbes help to locate long time buried gold and other non-ferrous metals?
Is this a good case for "the halo effect" on long-time buried gold and coins?

Hi,
yes it is interesting. I start having thoughts on alternative halo generation when noticed that some worms (yes worms !) are really good detected by conventionals MDs, vlf but also sometimes PI. One time I dig something like 50 worms concentrated in a single spot at maybe 10cm depth.

So, I've supposed similar stuff... bacterial attack on buried metals and then worms collecting bacterials and also small amounts of metal ! So, seems that now we can say they exist!
I cannot make nothing but just guesses at that time... but now I'm pleased to know that these bacterial colonies exist for real. Nice.

I've also noticed that with an early designed vlf I could also detect plant roots... and I think same stuff involved... but maybe also "fungi" are involved there. You know they are simbiotic beings and sometimes bind their microscopic roots (thin white stripes) with grass roots or other plants too.

I know also that in some australian fields there are big nuggets just between tree roots ! But don't know if this is the reason... they are big nuggets!

So, I think that halo generation in ground is even due to chemicals... but not only chemicals in matrix, but now also due to micro-organisms in the matrix too. This would be important for gold halo generation cause gold is low reactive to most of the chemicals out there with just few exceptions, and bacteria/fungi interaction could explain how it migrates in solution... so in the matrix also in places where "right" chemicals are absent.

So "Is this a good case for "the halo effect" on long-time buried gold and coins?"
I think YES! IT IS!

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Detecting worms with VLF and PI?

Hi Max,

I start having thoughts on alternative halo generation when noticed that some worms (yes worms !) are really good detected by conventionals MDs, vlf but also sometimes PI. One time I dig something like 50 worms concentrated in a single spot at maybe 10cm depth.

Max, this is amazing. I have a hard time believing there is enough metal in 50 worms to make any metal detector signal. But maybe there is another explanation: Sometimes when you are hunting in mineralized soil that has high iron content, you can hear a signal when you find a hollow cavern - empty air space under the ground. What you are hearing is the anomaly of no iron in the air pocket. It is possible that 50 worms together can take a space in the soil to make a cavern that does not have the same mineralization of the surrounding soil. And maybe this is the reason you saw a signal. I really don't know the answer. But I have a hard time believing 50 worms have enough metal to show a metal signal unless the worms eat some jewelry.

The ionization that microbes make from buried metals contains less metal than the buried metal target. If this ionization makes a halo, then the halo is not double the signal strength of the buried metal piece, it is only a fraction more than the buried metal would signal when compared to freshly buried with no ionization from microbes. The improved signal of a halo may come partly from the metal ions, and partly from the electronic activity of the microbes and chemicals working around the buried target.

I have often wondered about the signal strength of long time buried treasure. I wonder this: We hear stories of a treasure hunter digs an old coin with a strong signal, then after out of the ground, they discover the signal is smaller. After the coin is dug, it is not possible to measure how much signal is remaining in the soil around the coin, because this soil has been dug and scattered on the surface -- no longer same matrix as it was around the buried coin. What I wonder is this... Suppose you have a method to retrieve the buried coin with halo, but not disturb the surrounding soil. If you can remove the coin without disturbing the soil, then you can take second reading with your metal detector to see how much signal remains from only the soil where the coin was removed, and halo from only the soil.

This would be very good data to know, for research to understand the importance of halo contribution to treasure detection. Maybe someone can discover a way to recover a buried target without disturbing the surrounding ground with shovels. I don't see any easy way, but maybe somebody else knows a good way to test for halo.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

Transportation of gold

What we're discussing here is the Geochemistry of gold. Gold very much spreads out in many ways besides in metallic form and one of them is ionic. Go to a University library and pull the book "The Geochemistry of gold and its deposits" Geological Survey Bulletin 280 by R.W. Boyle 1979.
Chapter IV entitled "Oxidation and Secondary enrichment of gold deposits". Or go to google and type in "Secondary enrichment of gold" or "Supergene gold". This is what forms "pocket gold" the old time prospectors were always after.
Now whether this ionic gold makes it into the air I dunno and if I get the chance I'll sit down and write a Geochemist or you can too.

We can theorize till we all die from Al Gore's Global Warming,but we need to contact someone who works in the field of Geochemistry. But yes gold very much spreads out that's why we use Geochemical Exploration (remember the Purple cassias test for the quantity of gold in soil?) means to trace gold back to it's source. I have taken "grab samples" of soil and sent them in to an Assayer for analysis. If you're not familiar with the term "Grab sample" google it. There's some good papers on Economic Geology. If we study up on these things it will further our ability to come up with better ways to detect gold or whatever metal as far as science will allow us.

Randy

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All
I think that it is not important if gold's ions go into the air. They are important to create a ground battery with another metal or mineral. This process it takes many years if the distance is remarkable but it's scientifically possible. The probleme is to measure a difference of voltage of a battery with only pole to disposition.