some cosiderations

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Max,

Max, this is amazing. I have a hard time believing there is enough metal in 50 worms to make any metal detector signal. But maybe there is another explanation: Sometimes when you are hunting in mineralized soil that has high iron content, you can hear a signal when you find a hollow cavern - empty air space under the ground. What you are hearing is the anomaly of no iron in the air pocket. It is possible that 50 worms together can take a space in the soil to make a cavern that does not have the same mineralization of the surrounding soil. And maybe this is the reason you saw a signal. I really don't know the answer. But I have a hard time believing 50 worms have enough metal to show a metal signal unless the worms eat some jewelry.
J_P

This "50 worm signal" is more likely due to an incorrect ground balance setting than worms producing gold. If there are enough worms concentrated in a small area, the signal from the ground matrix would fluctuate as the search head passes over this anomaly and produce a false response.
Or is this really a joke? For instance - how many worms does it take to produce one gold ion? Answers on a postcard please...

[J_Player]

Do LRLs work?

Hello friends!
I am new member here, need help about lrl. Does those things really works?
I am tired of conventional md's...so low depths! Any chance to go deeper than 30cm's on coins? I saw Hung and Estebans fantastic claims!!!???
Is it possible? If it is,than how can i get those?

According to Carl Moreland, owner of this forum, no lrl works. He has tested many lrls including the Mineoro models that Hung says will find gold, and he discovered it does not find anything except electronic noise from his electric fence. You can also read some tests that Carl made when he opened up some lrls here: http://geotech.thunting.com/cgi-bin/...le=reports.dat
Also look here for tests on the Mineoro FG80: http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/s...ad.php?t=12226 Look at the complaints from the owners of the Mineoro like Carl, vcrb, neronc, and look at the electronic diagrams they found when they opened the LRL. According to Carl and others, the electronics are rubbish, not capable of finding treasure.

I have read postings from many owners of lrls who say they wish they could have back their money because they do not find any treasure from their lrl. Carl, Qiaozhi, and many others have said these are all false detectors that do not find treasures. Because of what they say, I would ask to see a demonstration of a lrl finding the treasure that you hide before you pay money for it. I have found nobody on earth who is willing to demonstrate any lrl finding a treasure in front of you. I know of nobody who will show you how to find a treasure in person using their machine. Not a manufacturer or an owner of an lrl. Not anywhere on earth. But the dealers are happy to take your money if you want to buy one without testing it first.

To answer your question: "Is it possible? If it is,than how can i get those?"
I believe it is possible. But I doubt the LRLs currently on the market can give acceptable results, because the builders of these machines don't seem to know much of the true dynamics of the signals they are sensing. For example, it is pretty simple to prove there are no gold ions hovering in a cloud 7.2 feet in the air above a buried treasure like one manufacturer claims. The only way I know you can get a LRL that works is to build it yourself, or find someone who can build one that works for you.

If I knew of any reliable LRLs that have been built or are in use today, I would not be talking about them in this forum. This forum is a geotech forum, designed for people to share technical information, not a forum to keep trade secrets safe.

J_P

[Nihil Roma Maius]

So, the halo and ions are the flatulence of microbes causes by gold-indigestion? (only is a joke, calm!!!)

how many worms does it take to produce one gold ion? Answers on a postcard please...

This has relation with an old theological Medium Era discussion:

How many angels can dance in the head of a pin?

But here is the solution:

http://headofapin.net/

But the angels also CAN to sing and pray at same time! Risum teneatis!

[J_Player]

Flatulent microbes

So, the halo and ions are the flatulence of microbes causes by gold-indigestion? (only is a joke, calm!!!)

Actually, the halo and ions produced would be considered the feces of microbes, while the deposition of metallic gold would be considered the feces of other microbes. The flatulence of microbes is thought to be a gaseous by-product of digesting gold and other minerals. According to several studies, the flatulence of microbes contributes to the accumulation of toxic gases that must be ventilated from mine shafts. If there are any gold atoms in these gaseous discharges, I suppose they could be called "the golden fart".

[Seden]

Spontaneous Polarization Method

Franco,
The method you described is called Spontaneous Polarization and would be good to google it. I have a paper Dr.Charles E. Corry sent me from his article in Geophysics,Vol.50,NO.6 (June 1985) entitled "Spontaneous polarization associated with porphyry sulfide mineralization". Locating sulfide deposits (which is usually associted with lode minerals) but also graphite and high grade anthracite coal. Now there are gold sulphides along with copper that I know of but to separate gold from all these can't be done with just SP alone.

J-Player,very good links regarding the microbes that produce metallic gold and even nuggets! This Roma Maius is just trying to be a jackass and which is consistant with those who do not share in the technical discussions so must be shunned by the group.

Randy

[Max]

Hi Max,


Max, this is amazing. I have a hard time believing there is enough metal in 50 worms to make any metal detector signal. But maybe there is another explanation: Sometimes when you are hunting in mineralized soil that has high iron content, you can hear a signal when you find a hollow cavern - empty air space under the ground. What you are hearing is the anomaly of no iron in the air pocket. It is possible that 50 worms together can take a space in the soil to make a cavern that does not have the same mineralization of the surrounding soil. And maybe this is the reason you saw a signal. I really don't know the answer. But I have a hard time believing 50 worms have enough metal to show a metal signal unless the worms eat some jewelry.

The ionization that microbes make from buried metals contains less metal than the buried metal target. If this ionization makes a halo, then the halo is not double the signal strength of the buried metal piece, it is only a fraction more than the buried metal would signal when compared to freshly buried with no ionization from microbes. The improved signal of a halo may come partly from the metal ions, and partly from the electronic activity of the microbes and chemicals working around the buried target.

I have often wondered about the signal strength of long time buried treasure. I wonder this: We hear stories of a treasure hunter digs an old coin with a strong signal, then after out of the ground, they discover the signal is smaller. After the coin is dug, it is not possible to measure how much signal is remaining in the soil around the coin, because this soil has been dug and scattered on the surface -- no longer same matrix as it was around the buried coin. What I wonder is this... Suppose you have a method to retrieve the buried coin with halo, but not disturb the surrounding soil. If you can remove the coin without disturbing the soil, then you can take second reading with your metal detector to see how much signal remains from only the soil where the coin was removed, and halo from only the soil.

This would be very good data to know, for research to understand the importance of halo contribution to treasure detection. Maybe someone can discover a way to recover a buried target without disturbing the surrounding ground with shovels. I don't see any easy way, but maybe somebody else knows a good way to test for halo.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J_Player,
I know that seems impossible... but after digging that worms they sounded when their mass (were a lot) was on the coil !
Belive me it's incredible I know... and also geb stuff I've also thought is not a right explaination of the fact. Don't know why but they sounded... of course... with plant roots yes maybe was geb tuned out or something else... cause after making the holes and collected roots on the coil no sound was generated.

I don't know why that worms sounded. I noticed in same place, with a PI detector (GS4) same thing!

What to say... I don't know why it happens and just in one place till now I've noticed that strange thing happen ! In other places no... yes found many worms too but never sounded !

When I saw your post about bacteria I thought that this could be the cause... but maybe are the worms themselves... their structure...I don't know.

Anyway, it's true... and remains for me a big borderline argument

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

This "50 worm signal" is more likely due to an incorrect ground balance setting than worms producing gold. If there are enough worms concentrated in a small area, the signal from the ground matrix would fluctuate as the search head passes over this anomaly and produce a false response.
Or is this really a joke? For instance - how many worms does it take to produce one gold ion? Answers on a postcard please...

Hi Qiaozhi,

"Or is this really a joke? " ehm

No... it seems a joke cause worms are involved... but I don't know why they sounded... SOUNDED FOR REAL! This is the problem... I cannot say why and so guessed that they could got ions or something from ground.
(maybe iron oxides ??? Who knows ???)

Really I don't know why.


Just to complicate things...
Field is located in an old mil airbase... that suffered from heavy bombing during WWII. Lot of scraps of iron and many things... iron... steel... brass... copper... a lot them! (and who knows maybe gold too!)

Best regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

I suppose they could be called "the golden fart".

This is the main reason you can't use Tesla-spark system... You can explode...

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Now, most serious. Some years ago I built a nanovoltmeter attached to a short antenna. This has in output an audio generator. I was surprised that detects changes in sites with natural (type tubular) holes. I suspect that the air compressed in it has a small voltage, maybe also causes false alarms in metal detector, is a kind of halo, very well detectable by regular MD, but you NEVER will find the target. Another extrange think detectable by this nanovoltmeter is bamboo roots!

Many years ago we found a small treasure in a silver container. Over the treasure there was a stone. When we up the stone, the compressed gas, yes THE GAS, when out with sound sssshhhh!!!

[J_Player]

Measuring earth farts

Now, most serious. Some years ago I built a nanovoltmeter attached to a short antenna. This has in output an audio generator. I was surprised that detects changes in sites with natural (type tubular) holes. I suspect that the air compressed in it has a small voltage, maybe also causes false alarms in metal detector, is a kind of halo, very well detectable by regular MD, but you NEVER will find the target. Another extrange think detectable by this nanovoltmeter is bamboo roots!

Hi Nihil Roma Maius,
If you are measuring differences of nanovolts in the air space above the ground, the composition and topography of the ground can have an influence in the variations of the signals you measure. First, keep in mind there is approximately 100v/meter voltage gradient in the atmosphere that is powered by gamma and other space energies acting on the ionosphere. This means if you look at a flat ground that is uniform with no buried objects or underground anomalies, you can expect the electric charge in the space above that ground will increase about 100 volts with each meter increase of altitude. And this gradient will be uniform above the flat uniform ground area.

What happens when you walk into this flat ground is you become part of the ground through electrical contact of your feet (not perfect contact depending on shoe materials and moisture). But you cause an anomaly in the voltage gradient found in the air, similar to how a mountain will move the ground potential upward into the space gradient.

Also consider that not all ground is flat or uniform. If you have a flat dry ground with a large mass of conductive ore concentrated in a hole at the surface, then this conductive area will be expected to show as an anomaly in the voltage gradient above it, localized around the hole, and can be detected with sensitive instruments designed to measure the space charge, or voltage gradient among other techniques.

In the case of bamboo roots, these are like long tubes that concentrate water, and are often more conductive than the surrounding soil if the bamboo is growing in relatively dry soil. The more conductive roots and the part of the plant above ground can be expected to act as a grounding rod for the local charge gradient in the air. Consider that in a flat sandy area, the top layer of dry sand could be expected to be an insulator with similar conductivity to the air above, and the 100v/meter space charge may continue into the dry sand below the surface. But when the gradient goes deep enough to find higher conductive damp soil or conductors that are connected to damp soil, then we can expect the gradient to drop to the ground potential.

Now if you find a metal object or plant roots that are surrounded by less conductive soil, and also in contact with more conductive soil, You can expect the location of these roots or metal objects will show a voltage gradient anomaly in the air that you may be able to measure with your sensitive instrument. This would be also true of caverns and air tubes in the ground, which would normally be expected to be less conductive than the surrounding soil. The less conductive locations would show a higher positive charge anomaly rather than more negative like conductive objects. These hollow spots in the ground could be detectable the same as conductive objects with a sensitive enough instrument, and depending on the soil conditions.

A concentration of mineral ions or other ions in the soil could also have some influence on the local space charge in the air above these locations. I would expect ionized gases to quickly dissipate their charge in the neighbouring soil to reach a relative ground potential. But in the case of large tubes and vents, I am not so sure a mass of ionized gas could not exist. I still think it is more likely that you would detect a voltage gradient anomaly in the air above because of ionization in the soil, not from ionized gas.

I would be interested to know the details of the nanovoltmeter you built. In particular the physical configuration of the probe and any shielding or reflectors, and electric connections to measure the charge and grounding used, if any. Also, did you use any circuitry to avoid measuring noise? I presume you used a high impedance input FET and several stages before reaching the audio section.

Best wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J Player
Your scientific reasonings are always interesting and appropriated!

Seden I have a old geophysicist handbook (italian, years 1953) " the electronic dowser" but in spite of title it's a technical handbook.
It deals of Spontaneous Polarization and also of Oxide Reduction battery that it works with one metal that it lies in two different ambients.

Best wishes

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Qiaozhi,

"Or is this really a joke? " ehm

No... it seems a joke cause worms are involved... but I don't know why they sounded... SOUNDED FOR REAL! This is the problem... I cannot say why and so guessed that they could got ions or something from ground.
(maybe iron oxides ??? Who knows ???)

Really I don't know why.


Just to complicate things...
Field is located in an old mil airbase... that suffered from heavy bombing during WWII. Lot of scraps of iron and many things... iron... steel... brass... copper... a lot them! (and who knows maybe gold too!)

Best regards,
Max

When you dug up the worms did you recheck to see whether the signal was still there?

[J_Player]

WORM MYSTERY SOLVED.....

After intense interrogation and threats of dissection, the worm-burglar coughs up the stolen ring:

[Seden]

Earthworms DO contain metallic content!

I typed in Google "earthworms"metallic content and also typed in "earth Worms"metallic content and I got alot of articles on how earthworms retain the metals in soil and in particular lead. Well well, nice to know that this is now a scientific fact,especially if you had a concentration of 50 together. The mass of small metallic content of the worms would be seen collectively by a metal detectors coil. Similarly to having a vial full of powedered metal.


Randy

[J_Player]

Interesting research, Seden. According to some of these studies, the leached metal content of the soil can reach well over 1% metal.

At the southwest pacific coast in USA, people are warned not to eat muscles taken from the ocean tide pools because they concentrate heavy metals thought to originate from local effluent and chemicals that run off from storm drains. This makes me wonder: How much lead and other metals can earthworms concentrate that have been leaching into the soil at a military base? Are earthworms able to concentrate enough lead, cadmium, zinc and other metals to read on a metal detector?

In order to detect these metals that a worm might ingest, they usually need to be in the form of a solid chunk of metal. Finely ground grains and powders become very difficult to detect with metal detectors. Let us be generous and presume these worms were able to ingest enough metal to make up 15% of their body weight. If a ball of worms weighed 100 grams, then this would be 15 grams metal. If this metal is in colloidal form that can chelate into small deposits in the worm's body, and if these deposits are making good contact along the length of the worm's body, maybe there is an argument they "grew a thin metal wire inside them". Maybe a more likely argument is they swallowed some lead shotgun pellets and other metal grains that remained in their bodies in enough quantities to give a reading on a metal detector. In the worst case, Max found a ball of worms that swallowed 15 grams of gold flakes which they were not able to digest, and remained in their bodies. Then, being unable to determine why the worms gave a reading, he threw them out.

Best wishes,
J_P