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In the link below, both circles and both squares are the exact same color.
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No doubt your intention here is to demonstrate how reality can be somewhat different to what we see. In other words, the world is more mysterious than we can imagine, etc., etc.Originally posted by Mike(Mont) View Post
But the real lesson here is how easily the human brain can be deceived. In fact quite similar to dowsing.
Look how a simple test, using an image manipulation program, proves the circles and squares are actually the same, despite appearances. No need for extra-sensory perception, or things that go bump in the night. Just a simple computer program.
The lesson for today is "don't trust your senses". They can be tricked so easily. This is the reason we (the skeptics) use double-blind testing to reveal the true reality. You should try it sometime. It could save you a lot of unnecessarily wasted time reading books on mysticism and paraphysics. By the way, if this was supposed to be your trump card, I'm afraid you'll need to do better than that.
Thanks for sharing though. It's a very good optical illusion.
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Okay, I won't post anymore. I don't drink whiskey but I thought the lyrics were appropriate.
Click "play"
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Well...not really Mike.Originally posted by Mike(Mont) View Post
I know that a frequency generator will not transmit/broadcast a signal several hundred feet downrange and cause a reaction with an atom/molecule. That is an electronics issue.Comment
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If we go back to the beginning post #1 we can read how I started this thread to learn about some details of MFD frequencies, not to argue about whether MFD works or not.
Yet we see that anything related to MFD usually leads to attracting discussions of whether it works or not instead of talking about the frequencies that people use for MFD oscillators.
MFD Question for Tim Williams
...My question is about MFD frequencies. I am not opening this thread to argue about whether MFD works or not, only to ask about the frequencies used in MFD methods.
You have stated that MFD methods incorporate a signal generator which uses frequencies found in a table listing the NMR frequencies known to exist in the magnetic field found on the earth.
If we put aside the unknown explanations and arguments of whether it works or not, we have an understandable element in MFD, ....the NMR frequencies.We already know the opinions of most of the people here who are posting to talk about whether MFD methods work or not.Originally posted by Tim Williams
But we learned some new things about the frequencies used for MFD methods:
1. MFD methods use NMR frequencies
According to Tim Williams, MFD methods use the same frequencies that we can find in a NMR table, and we are correct to adjust the frequency found in the table for the local magnetic field and temperature.
2. The NMR frequency must be calculated for the exact magnetic field
This need for calculating the frequency was confirmed by "LRL Man" Tim Williams. Also, according to Carl-NC, there is no need to correct for temperature, only for the magnetic field. I checked this and found it to be correct for all practical purposes. The temperature can cause a negligible variation in frequency (parts per million change) as reported by some scientists for temperatures usually found on earth. In order to see any noticeable change of frequency, the temperature must be brought near absolute zero.
So Carl is correct... we only need to check the local magnetic field strength in order to find the NMR frequency for any element buried in the ground with good precision.
3. The NMR frequency cannot be expected to be the same at different locations and at different times.
The frequencies will wander above and below the frequency we expect because the magnetic field strength of the earth wanders above and below the single value we usue in our equation to determine the frequency. This variation in magnetic field strength is expected as we move to different locations along the magnetic circuit of the earth, but it is also caused by variations in the earth material, (other objects and minerals buried, or above ground that can concentrate the earth's magnetic field). And it is also caused by fluctuations in the earth's magnetic field strength that vary with the time all over the earth.
The result of these variations is the earth's field in one location can be more than double than what it is in another location. And then when we measure the field strength a few hours later, we see it can change significantly to the point that the NMR frequency has changed.
What this all means is we can rely on a chart for the local magnetic field strength to show only an average for our area. The variations within a city can be up to double what the average is. This is especially true of places that have geographical faults and folds. The only way to get an accurate idea of the magnetic field to use for NMR calculations is to measure it at the time and in the location where you want to know the frequency. Any other approximation is likely to give you the wrong NMR frequency.
4. Objects that are buried or on the ground do not have a precise MNR frequency
The exact NMR frequency of any element buried in the ground or sitting on the ground can be expected to be a poor resolution frequency, meaning the atoms are not resonating at one single frequency. This is because the earth's magnetic field is not uniform. There are buried rocks, minerals and sands as well as other objects which distort the earth's magnetic field to make anomalies in the field where your target element is buried. These earth field anomalies cause the NMR frequency to become more broadband instead of a single precise frequency.
5. The NMR frequency is extremely difficult to measure unless the sample is placed in a very strong magnetic field
NMR measurements are usually done in coil set to at least 350 times stronger than the earth field in a laboratory. When an element is measured only in the earth field, nearly all the NMR signal is canceled by opposing forces within the atoms. So any amount of unbalanced resonance signal you could measure is extremely weak. The result is any NMR signal you try to measure is lost in noise (noise from external sources is detected at the NMR frequency rather than resonance from the atom when scientists attempted to measure the NMR in an earth field).
It appears the NMR frequency of different elements can be used to identify an element in a laboratory, but would be useless to identify elements in the earth field.
We also see most people who use MFD methods are set for single frequencies which are very unlikely to be the NMR frequency of the element they are searching for.
This leads to speculation that maybe the MFD users are not detecting the nuclear magnetic resonance of the elements they are searching for.
A more refined way to tune an oscillator to the NMR frequency was reported by Mike(Mont):
But wait...Originally posted by Mike(Mont)
This calculation will give us only the average NMR frequency for a general area, not for the location and time where he is standing with his MFD oscillator.
The calculated magnetic field could be off by up to 50% anywhere in the general area due to the natural variations.
And by simply walking a quarter mile you could find the magnetic field and NMR frequency has changed by 50%.
The magnetic field strength could also change another 5-10% during the day as the earth's field strength changes.
In other words, we have no assurance that we are tuned to the correct NMR frequency unless we measure the field where we are standing unless we measure it.
Is this the end of the theory that MFD oscillators are resonating with the nuclear magnetic resonance of elements?
It certainly does not appear to be possible, considering nobody I know of has ever taken steps to insure their oscillators are even tuned to the NMR frequency.
What would happen if you were to tune a low voltage oscillator to a NMR frequency?
Would it would be impossible to tune a resonant signal from the oscillator wire through the air or ground to a group of distant atoms? Not by any known theory of electronics or physics (see 4 and 5 above).
But what about magical parapsychology theories?
Again, no.
Why?
Assuming that for some people these magical powers exist, they are looking to identify the location of an element which is resonating at the frequency they set their MFD oscillator to.
But we know it is virtually impossible that this is the NMR frequency of the element they are searching for unless they used a calibrated magnetometer to check the field first.
In addition, the NMR signal from elements in an earth field is so minuscule that it is smaller than the noise signals which would easily be orders of 10 larger than any trace of a NMR signal.
And who knows where the noise is coming from?
The sky?
A junk pile inside a shed?
An empty hole?
Who cares where the noise comes from?
What is important is we know the element does not have the same NMR frequency as the MFD oscillator.
And if it did, there would be a lot of noise from different directions at that same frequency which is stronger than the target resonance to confuse the treasure hunter.
It all points to the theory that MFD users are not detecting NMR frequencies of elements.
But we also have another reason to speculate that the MFD users are not detecting the nuclear magnetic resonance of the elements they are searching for:
Has anyone discovered whether this is a true statement?Originally posted by Mike(Mont)
If it is true, then what what frequencies are used in MFD?
Best wishes,
J_PComment
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J_P so we are on the same page. The spike you see on the computer for H is found using the earths field. The strong field that is turned on for a few seconds is only to cause the H protons to tilt. It's when this field is turned off and the H protons return to the earths field is the frequency read. So in the earths field H Protons @ 50nt should be around 2128 or so. This is what proton mags are calibrated to. look on page 9.
This is what I said. "Correct! But MFD uses the frequencies in the earth field that is in the audio range. That is all I am saying."Bringing metal detectors into the world of imaging!
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Hi J_P.
I can say that the MFD frequency varies from person to person.
For example I have a good response to the gold at 4814 Hz. I know many people who use MFD and use for the gold frequencies from 4500 until 5500. In every person there is a frequency that suits more.
Regards
GeoComment
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Hi Tim,Originally posted by Tim Williams
Of course that is correct.
And we see it is impossible to find the reading if we don't first turn on the super strong field in order to cause the imbalance in the internal atomic resonance forces.
This super strong field is what removes the opposite atomic forces, that make this precession signal visible at the moment we remove the field.
When we do not begin with a field stronger than the earth's field, the imbalance of opposing resonant forces is so small that the noise is many times stronger.
This raises some questions about people who claim to locate distant substances using NMR frequencies.
And there is the nagging problem that the earth's field is not uniform... look at page 7 which shows the variations in the earth's field in a small area.
What that map does not show is the micro variations that also happen.
And it does not have a larger scale map to show how far off a given spot of ground is different from the field strength value you looked up on the daily report for your location.
The fact is that any value we look up in the daily reports is only an interpolation of what was measured between magnetometer stations, not a real measurement that was taken at your spot.
If you actually measure the magnetic field, you will find a lot of variations like you see in the chart page 7.
But the main problem I see is nobody who claims to find things with MFD methods even bothers to measure the field.
I can't imagine they could have their oscillators set for the actual NMR frequency for materials nearby them.
This fact, along with the fact they are not using a strong field to initiate the precession which makes the NMR measurable makes me think MFD does not use NMR frequencies, regardless of what MFD users think.
We then see Geo reports a frequency far different, and I read his posts where he reported an oscillator at MHz range also works for him.
This is why I wonder if you happen to know anything about what Mike(Mont) claims you said?
Best wishes,Originally posted by Mike(Mont)
J_PComment
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I think He means I said MFD has nothing to do with MRI. I think I told Jim that or someone.Bringing metal detectors into the world of imaging!
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Ok, I got it.Originally posted by Tim Williams
MFD does not produce an image of soft tissues from people who were placed inside a giant magnetic coil. Nor does it involve any strong magnetic fields at all.
So what about the claims of using NMR frequencies, considering the near impossibility that MFD users could be at the correct NMR frequency for the time of day at their location?
How can we attribute any claims of finding something buried to having an oscillator tuned to the NMR frequency, when it is highly unlikely they are tuned to a NMR frequency?
Best wishes,
J_PComment
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Well that silver I dowse I used NMR frequencies. I didn't do too bad.Bringing metal detectors into the world of imaging!
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Hi Tim,Originally posted by Tim Williams
It appears you are saying the fact you find silver confirms you are tuned to the correct NMR frequency of silver.
This logic might seem reasonable if we hadn't just read a lot of facts published by scientists who say the NMR frequency depends on the magnetic field strength where the sample is located.
For example, look at the different field strengths reported by NOAA at different locations around the world today, and the NMR frequency we find when we use Mike(Mont)'s formula:
45,745.0 nT = 34.143 Hz = Athens, Greece
23,277.5 nT = 17.374 Hz = Rio De Janiero, Brazil
43,737.0 nT = 32.645 Hz = Lisbon, Portugal
61,540.3 nT = 45.933 Hz = Tura, Russia
47,470.2 nT = 35.431 Hz = Los Angeles, USA
You can see the field strength and the NMR frequency is different for every place I listed.
I presume you looked up the daily magnetic field strength where you are located on the days you searched for silver in order to calculate the NMR frequency.
NOAA Daily reports are not good enough to find the NMR frequency in an earth field
The problem is NOAA data does not show the magnetic field strength for the exact spot where you are treasure hunting.
These are daily averages for your area which were interpolated from various magnetometer stations some distance from you.
There are many local anomalies of substantial proportions which are averaged in order to make these daily reports.
It is very unlikely the daily average you saw published is the same as the actual field strength where you were standing.
Most of the geological magnetometer surveys I have seen show the earth's magnetic field is far from a uniform field.
Most surveys show magnetic variations that change the NMR frequency substantially within a space the size of a soccer field.
The published NOAA average field strength for your area is probably far different than the actual field strength where you are standing.
It is probably enough different that you cannot possibly calculate the correct NMR frequency.
NOAA does not catch 5000 nT anomalies in a small field, or even in a big field
For example, the image below shows a magnetometer survey in newfoundland with a magnetic field variation between 52000 nT and 67000 nT within a distance of about 100 meters (328 feet).
This amount of variation in magnetic field strength means the NMR frequency of hydrogen changes from 2213.72 Hz to 2742.59 Hz when you walk 328 feet!
In other areas of the survey, we see a more uniform field.
But we have no way to know if the NOAA reported field strength is the same as even the areas of uniform field unless we measure the field with a magnetometer.
Let's see what NOAA has to report about the two corners of that soccer field sized area today:
NOAA reports for the lower left corner : 58°00'20" W 48°31'40" N = 53,567.0 nT
NOAA reports at the upper right corner: 58°00'15" W 48°31'44" N = 53,567.1 nT
They show the two corners to be 0.1 nT difference... not the 5000 nT difference that the geological survey measured.
Was NOAA wrong, or was the magnetic survey company wrong?
We expect the absolute field value is different today than when the magnetometer survey was made, but the 5000 nT variation across the two corners of this field does not change.
We should still find somewhere close to 5000 nT difference, but NOAA is reporting 0.1 nT difference, or essentially the same field strength.
We know NOAA did not report the true field strength, and we know the NOAA report does not give us a usable measurement to calculate the NMR frequency.
How can the NOAA report be wrong?
Because there are so many variations in the earth's magnetic field, NOAA only publishes the interpolated averages for an area that do not show these variations we could measure.
Thus the NOAA daily report for this location is only the average for a large area of the map, with no indication of what the actual field strength is at any area the size of a soccer field.
In fact we cannot even expect the areas of uniform field strength to be accurately reported for this map, because the NOAA interpolation is for a larger area than we would normally search on this map.
The only way to calculate the NMR of an element on the ground is to begin with the actual magnetic field first
The point is the only way you can know the NMR frequency where you are standing is to measure the field strength with a calibrated magnetometer like a geologist does.
Unless you measured the magnetic field strength with a magnetometer before making your frequency calculation, it is highly unlikely your oscillator was set to the actual NMR frequency.
Did NMR find your silver, or was it something else?
This raises serious questions about what NMR frequency you were using with your oscillator.
In other words... Did you measure the field strength where you are standing with a calibrated magnetometer before you calculated what frequency to set your oscillator?
Or did you use the NOAA interpolated field strength in your area to calculate the NMR frequency?
If you were finding silver, then I would think we cannot attribute the silver finds to an oscillator resonating at the NMR frequency.
If you really did have exceptionally good silver recovery results, I suspect the results must be attributed to a different cause than NMR frequency.
My question is:
How certain are you that your oscillator was set to the actual NMR frequency of silver when you were finding silver?
Best wishes,
J_P
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P.S.
Take a look at the image below from this website: http://triplenineresources.com/proje...ation-updates/ and http://triplenineresources.com/wp-co...10/10/MAG2.jpg
You cans see the large variation in the earth's field when you walk across the length of a soccer field.
But if you check another location in the map, you can find areas that have fairly uniform field strength.
The problem with the NOAA daily report is the value they report is about 53560 nT (within 20 or 30 nT) for everywhere on this map.
you could not possibly find the correct NMR frequency when using thier reported value.
other interesting links:
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J_P in dowsing the frequency is not that exact. In other words if I'm set to 38.2 hz for gold I will still hit that target +-1 hz. The plot you show above is not a normal area. this is a plot showing high mineral content. Possible gold silver or whatever vein running through that area and causing the earths field to change as you see it. As far as using NMR frequencies I set to the area I'm hunting. Lets say Ag @ 47000 nt is 80.99 hz. At 47010.5 it's not changed much but to 81.0. In my area the most it changes is about .1 hz from day to day.
I use my Iphone with an on-board 3 axis mag to check total nt. If I was in that area in the plot it would be a red flag that I'm standing in a large anomaly.
As far as map dowsing goes I can only hit targets that were in the picture at the time it was taken. So for that silver lamp I set for the field nt according to the day of the photo. Elevation also comes in to play.
Problem is, none of this makes sense to science. I'll be the first to agree with that. But! Many are using dowsing and locating just find. It's a big part of my hunt. Just saying. There are people today that have developed electronic sensing and are working with mining companies and are staying very busy.
If this forum want to try a little test I will post 2 NMR compound frequencies of their choice. I will give the NMR field strength to use for mikes calculation. So anyone can try the frequency if they have a rod and a sine wave generator. It can be an drug or mineral type or whatever. Of course all should have access to the same target. So lets think of that.
TImBringing metal detectors into the world of imaging!
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Hi Tim,Originally posted by Tim Williams
What you are saying is when dowsing, you no longer need the precision of NMR methods, and that none of it makes sense to science.
I can agree that none of it makes sense to science.
This is why I am only addressing the one part that does make sense, ie: the NMR frequency of an element and how to determine it.
What causes magnetic gradients in the ground?
To start, the tiny area of the map I showed has a larger magnetic gradient than other areas of the map.
We can expect the NOAA report will not catch this high gradient in their interpolated values.
However, this is not an abnormal area that was mapped. Most magnetic surveys I have seen show gradients which are similar even when they are not in a mining area.
In most magnetic survey maps that span several miles we find areas where there are large gradients and small gradients.
These gradients are not caused by silver or gold veins.
They are caused by folds and faults, or other geological movements of the earth which concentrate minerals that are more magnetic or diamatic.
In addition to the folds and faults, there are also other geological forces such as erosion, glaciers, and volcanos which move earth materials that can alter magnetic fields.
Even sediments and overburdon can contain pockets of materials that concentrate magnetic fields.
Gold and silver metal or ore veins do not contribute substantially to these variations in the magnetic field.
But magnetic sands, rocks and even foriegn objects located at or under the surface do.
The places where you find large anomalies are places where the earth has moved and shifted the position of the materials that can focus a magnetic field.
If gold or silver ores or treasure items happen to be in these places, then their presence does not have any direct influence on the magnetic field gradient.
Let's see what happens outside the strong gradient area:
We know the strong gradient I showed over a 100 meter span could be hard for NOAA to catch in their interpolated reading for the area.
But what about the parts of that map that do not have a large gradient?
Suppose we check the NOAA report for the large blue area at the bottom, and the center of the large purple area in the center.
We can see these two areas are about two miles (3 Km) away from each other.
Let's see what the NOAA reports for field strength in these areas that do not have a large gradient (see image below).
NOAA reports the lower blue area to have a field of 52708 nT, while the survey measured to be 57000 nT.
This means that the NOAA data for today is coincidentally the same as the magnetic survey crew measured back at the time when the survey was done.
This is good for a base reference so we can see if we find the same relative field strength in other low-gradient areas of the map.
Now, lets take a look at the dark purple area in the center...
NOAA reports a field of 52721 nT in the center of the purple where there is no strong gradient. But the survey crew measured 57000 nT.
NOAA is off by 4300 nT!
This is not a heavy gradient area. It is the center of a large uniform area over a mile long.
We see the resolution of the NOAA interpolation does not include this particular location.
So we can be walking along the purple area for a mile or so and have no idea that we are using the wrong NMR frequency calculated from the NOAA report.
How far off are we?
We set our oscillator to 39.4 Hz after we check the NOAA magnetic field value and made a calculation.
But if we take the actual measured magnetic field value, we find the actual NMR frequency is 42.5 Hz.
There is no way we can pretend these two frequencies are about the same.
What further complicates the error is the magnetic field changes during the day. And NOAA does not give us updates throughout the day every time the field changes strength.
We see the frequencies calculated from the NOAA reports are highly unlikely to give the correct values unless we are lucky enough to be standing in a patch of ground which has the same value at the moment as was published by NOAA.
And our Ipod did not tell us we are in a heavy magnetic field gradient.
There are many areas like the purple area I showed on the map. Your own area has many places with a flat gradient that NOAA does not interpolate near the correct value.
And the Ipod shows us the magnetic gradient is fairly even, so we are walking along thinking everything is ok.
As we leisurly stroll past the four buried treasure chests from the 1852 bank robbery, we are not disturbed by the chests with the 40 pounds of gold about 5 feet below where we are walking.
According to the NMR knowledge that makes sense, we could determine a person using MFD does not have his oscillator set to the NMR frequency except on rare occasions when he happened to set it at the correct frequency by chance. The calculations a person might make could bring him somewhere close to the NMR frequency, but not likely at the correct frequency. At this point we can conclude that MFD is not related to NMR because MFD oscillators are not tuned to NMR frequencies, and because a low voltage oscillator does not resonate with distant atoms at a different frequency.
Or we could look further into the part of MFD that doesn't make any sense.
According to the nonsense part of MFD, an Ipod is good enough to measure the magnetic field strength because precision is not important for NMR. 32 Hz give or take 1Hz works fine.
If this is the case, then of course, there is no reason to know the magnetic field strength any more precisely than an Ipod or a cheap magnetometer with a solid state fluxgate chip will indicate.
Of course, since it makes no sense, we can't expect people who understand the dynamics of NMR to believe MFD is utilizing these dynamics.
But we are taking an excursion into nonsense, with the hope that by the end of the tour we may find some sense in it.
Even though MFD does not make any sense as you say, there is always a final way to break through the barrier of disbelief...
The proof of the pudding is in the tasting.
I propose we try your experiment and see if anyone finds any response for the frequencies you suggest.
Let's all of us who are interested try it out and see if it really works to connect a 5v oscillator to L-Rods.
Why not tell us exactly how to build the rods (size and construction details), and give us a circuit diagram for an oscillator you consider suitable to connect.
Be sure to show how to connect the oscillator and any grounds. Also instructions for how to use the rods, and what they are supposed to do to indicate the target material.
If we see some results, then we will have a reason to figure out some real explanation how it is happening.
Best wishes,
J_P
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See illustration of how NOAA does not tell you the exact magnetic field strength where you are standing. It only interpolates the general value for a large area.Attached FilesComment
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JP you need to pick an area you are going to hunt and set for that area! I agree NOAA has different readings. I guess the science they are using is flawed! As I said I always check my mag and adjust accordingly.
For those who want to test will need a generator that has .1hz increments and sine wave. They will have to make a coil also. Using a spool of speaker wire 16ga. 100ft attach one end to the generator output and the other end split to about 2 ft and solder to brass rods to insert into the ground.Bringing metal detectors into the world of imaging!
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