Simple question

[ivconic]

Mike Mont:

"...Some people can feel the signal line in their feet, through their shoes. .."

I was about to ask you about this, but i forgot for a moment.
Now....
i would like to know if it makes difference what kind of shoes those must be?
Nike, Reebok....?
I heard rumors that Nike shoes are more suitable for non ferrous LR Locating while Reebok's are more suitable for cavity LR Locating?
And what if there are no shoes just bare foot?
Maybe in that case "signal" will be a bit attenuated?

[Carl-NC]

Question is more than simple:
what is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

This gets it right to the point, doesn't it? Even if your Average Joe LRL user doesn't know the answer to this, an LRL manufacturer should, eh? Can you imagine a metal detector designer who has no idea how a metal detector works?

I've also asked about the nature of signal lines for 13 years and gotten different answers, and no answers. I've also done my own testing and experiments on trying to physically detect the signal and gotten exactly zero results. Now, I agree, and have repeatedly admitted, there is a possibility that the signal line is almost unmeasurable, and that some people might possess a skill that I do not.

That is why I invite experienced "successful" users to show me their results. Most refuse. Many don't even want to talk about it, insisting that any kind of test is faulty. Yet they are more than willing to discuss their techniques and beliefs and the fact that you need to "practice" to get good at it. OK, how do you practice? What do you do?

Mike is a manufacturer, but cannot answer even the most basic question about his device:

Mike, besides being smooth, can you tell me exactly what your Revelation Locator Rod can do? What did you design it to do, and what does it actually do?

If I created a "metal detector" which had a smoother audio sound than any other metal detector, but it didn't actually detect metal, how much would that feature be worth to you? Can your RLR actually do anything useful? Can that usefulness be demonstrated? How would the manufacturer of metal detectors respond? Or cars? Or pianos?

Mike, if you were trying to demonstrate your Revelation Locator Rod to a potential customer, how would you do it? I would assume that you would use a method that demonstrates some reasonable level of success, so can you describe a simple test scenario for your device that you feel you can succeed with, say, 70% of the time?

C'mon Mike, now you're a manufacturer, you no longer have the luxury of dismissing or ignoring these questions! Even if I cannot measure or "feel" these signal lines, can you? Can you show me? No one else can, including a manufacturer, and including the fellow last weekend; all have failed miserably. Not even one single success! Are you so certain of failure that you won't even try?

- Carl

[WM6]

So;
what kind of signal is supposed to be that famous LRL "signal"?
What are it's properties and features?

Answer is:

This is more complex than modern science can explain (LRL "science" inclusive).

This is more complex than anyone can understand (LRL belivers inclusive).

This is more complex than anyone can solve with his LRL creations.


So, because it is more complex than anyone can explain and than anyone can solve with his LRL, the only proper question is:

Are mineoro,rangertell, dr. Hung, Mike_Mont, etc., LRL scam cheaters?
Answer is short and simple:
YES!

[J_Player]

Mike Mont:

"...Some people can feel the signal line in their feet, through their shoes. .."

I was about to ask you about this, but i forgot for a moment.
Now....
i would like to know if it makes difference what kind of shoes those must be?
Nike, Reebok....?
I heard rumors that Nike shoes are more suitable for non ferrous LR Locating while Reebok's are more suitable for cavity LR Locating?
And what if there are no shoes just bare foot?
Maybe in that case "signal" will be a bit attenuated?

Hi Ivconic,
We all know it is dangerous to walk outside bare foot when there is powerful electricity in the air causing rods to swing...

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Answer is:

This is more complex than modern science can explain (LRL "science" inclusive).

This is more complex than anyone can understand (LRL belivers inclusive).

This is more complex than anyone can solve with his LRL creations.


So, because it is more complex than anyone can explain and than anyone can solve with his LRL, the only proper question is:

Are mineoro,rangertell, dr. Hung, Mike_Mont, etc., LRL scam cheaters?
Answer is short and simple:
YES!

That's why i asked mostly LRL proponents here, LRL experts too.
Because i would like to learn...simply as that!

[ivconic]

Hi Ivconic,
We all know it is dangerous to walk outside bare foot when there is electricity in the air...

Best wishes,
J_P

So!? I see now!
Yes you are right!
So that's why Mike was explicit about shoes!?
Now i understand!
But yet; i do wander about type of shoes?

[ivconic]

Ok, for now we better go step by step with this.
Let us not stray to much away from most crucial question here!

Question is more than simple:
what is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

As LRL experts - you should know the proper answers?

By main LRL experts here i mean mostly on: Mike (Mont), Hung, Gibon and Dell.
Following all the topics here on Geotech in last couple years, i got impression (i am sure) that those people are real experts in these matters.
Therefore i do expect mostly from those to answer me on very simple question:

What is LRL "signal" and what are it's properties and features?

[hung]

Happened about two months ago.

Sitting by the beach I spotted a dowser at distance. When he suddenly marked a spot I aproached. He tried the regular bishop's method to check the depth and the target apperared relatively shallow.

Some guy with a MD also aproached. I saw 'whites' written. He passed the thing over the spot and nodded his head to the dowser. The dowser insisted that was the spot. The MD guy again recalibrated the device, swept the space around much like a floor polisher and nothing.
Then another detectorist aproached with a minelab. I think an explorer or something like that. He swept the same spot but not getting also a response, he started to move the coil quikly and he got a faint signal, real weak. He started to dig, signal slowly getting stronger. Then a coin popped up.

Humm... Did this prove that the whites MD is a piece of crap? Yes? No? Could it be that the whites operator was not competent enough to succeed? Yes? No?

Interesting... really interesting...

By the way, does somebody know how the minelab lawsuit against whites is going? Updates?

Carl?...

[WM6]

Happened about two months ago......


.

.... in dr. hung wet dreams.

[ivconic]

Happened about two months ago.

Sitting by the beach I spotted a dowser at distance. When he suddenly marked a spot I aproached. He tried the regular bishop's method to check the depth and the target apperared relatively shallow.

Some guy with a MD also aproached. I saw 'whites' written. He passed the thing over the spot and nodded his head to the dowser. The dowser insisted that was the spot. The MD guy again recalibrated the device, swept the space around much like a floor polisher and nothing.
Then another detectorist aproached with a minelab. I think an explorer or something like that. He swept the same spot but not getting also a response, he started to move the coil quikly and he got a faint signal, real weak. He started to dig, signal slowly getting stronger. Then a coin popped up.

Humm... Did this prove that the whites MD is a piece of crap? Yes? No? Could it be that the whites operator was not competent enough to succeed? Yes? No?

Interesting... really interesting...

By the way, does somebody know how the minelab lawsuit against whites is going? Updates?

Carl?...

Hung, that's nice story and illustrative too.
I like it.
Just because of that i want to learn more on these matters, and just because of that i started this topic and asked that question.
And i think (you simply must agree with me on this) that most important question is exactly what i asked here already.
Because, once we clear up all the aspects and get proper answer on that question - than it will be very easy to design perfect LRL device, comparing to which; all the "White's", "Minelab's" and others will look pretty funny! Don't you agree?
But first of all we must get the ANSWER on my question.
And who is the better man to ask than experts like You, Mike and Dell?
So i am asking you very friendly again:
What is LRL "signal", what type of signal is it and what are it's properties and features?

I hope that you will answer me on this, because so far you showed pretty respectable knowledge and experience on these matters!

[WM6]

Interesting... really interesting...

By the way, does somebody know how the minelab lawsuit against whites is going? Updates?

Carl?...

Or learn fraudster art on how to avoid real questions.

Not Interesting... really not interesting...

[ivconic]

Or learn fraudster art on how to avoid real questions.

Not Interesting... really not interesting...

C'mon WM6!
Cheer up!
We all here are enthusiasts and friends.
Who cares about eventual White's vs Minelab conflict?
As far as they make nice VLF's - they are our friends too!
But here we are talking only about LRL signal, it's properties and features.
Let us not dilute this subject and spoil so nice debate that is evolving right now, please!
I am restless to hear right answer from our fellows LRL experts.
Because, i swear, once i get the right answer - i will design perfect LRL.
Also i will ask my skeptic colleagues experts to help me in process of designing it.
Simply because i am not that good even in conventional electronics, there are more better experts here too.
I bet those will accept my invitation and we all will work and design perfect working LRL together.
But first we have to know most crucial thing:
What is LRL "signal", what type of signal is it and what are it's properties and features?

And who is better to ask than our good fellows LRL experts:
Mike , Hung, Gibon and Dell ??

[J_Player]

So!? I see now!
Yes you are right!
So that's why Mike was explicit about shoes!?
Now i understand!
But yet; i do wander about type of shoes?

Hi Ivconic,
Yes, of course I know something about type shoes.
According to MFD manufacturers your body capacitance is important.
When we consider the ground is the electrical return path from the treasure to the dowser, we know that any capacitance within your body requires a good dielectric to separate it from the ground.

Now we are getting somewhere...
We are talking about shoes and socks.
Of course if you are bare foot, you will be grounded and your capacitance is shorted out.
Unless you are standing bare foot on very dry ground which acts as an insulator.
Maybe people standing in the Sahara Desert can dowse bare foot very well.

But moving along to places where we do not have dry ground, we must examine the shoes and socks....
Do the shoes have dark rubber soles? These usually contain carbon pigments which allow electrical leakage...
Maybe better to use vinyl based shoe soles.
Another problem... what if there is a puncture through the sole of the shoe?
This should not be a problem unless the dowser is perspiring... and his feet are damp inside his shoes.
Or even worse... what if the ground is wet... and contaminated water is leaking through the hole in the sole of the shoe?
What if the dowser is wearing leather sole shoes?
Then moisture conducts small charges through the pores in the soles...
And definitely not a good dielectric.
Maybe it will help to carry spare socks... so you can change to clean, dry socks when you are ready for an important dowse.
Maybe the socks will be a good dielectric.

I think it will be best to hear back from dowsers who have more experience with different shoes and socks.
They should be much more expert for deciding what works best.

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

What is LRL "signal", what type of signal is it and what are it's properties and features?

Your 'simple' question requires a huge long and complex answer that I will refrain from answering it.
I simply don't have the time anymore nor feel like going over all of this again here or elsewhere after all this time. I'm serious. I'm sick of it.

If you want to know the answers to your question. Research it. There are tons of material here and specially on TNET about this. Just go for it.
Good luck.

[ivconic]

Your 'simple' question requires a huge long and complex answer that I will refrain from answering it.
I simply don't have the time anymore nor feel like going over all of this again here or elsewhere after all this time. I'm serious. I'm sick of it.

If you want to know the answers to your question. Research it. There are tons of material here and specially on TNET about this. Just go for it.
Good luck.

C'mon!
After such huge effort you already involved here on Geotech forum!?
What are you talking about?
I've been following your posts so long; you involved so much efforts here already.
Worse thing you can do now is to give up of everything!
Don't mind people like Carl, Qiaozhi, WM6 and others, don't let their remarks and mockery to distract your focus from main point here!
Those are nice people but seems not ready yet to accept new things that may appear in science!
If you, 'The HUNG', give up now... than what's left for others?
Besides, who's pushing you to answer so fast, now and in one sentence?
Take your time and go slowly, you will have my full attention anyway.
It doesn't matter how long you will elaborate this thing as long as you finally help me to understand what at the end is damn LRL signal, what type of signal it is and what should be it's properties and features, on which i should pay attention in process of designing the full electronic working LRL.
So... take your time and come up with your views upon this, no need to hurry!
Cheers!