Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector circuit

[J_Player]

It would be interesting to add some filter circuitry to the charging circuit that can be switched on and off. Then we could see if the filtered charging makes any difference when looking for ions. It also seem that if this charging frequency plays a part in the ion detection, then we might see differences when we change the frequency at the 555. I would suggest that if this frequency is adjusted, it might be good to add a circuit that automatically adjusts the gain at BC107 to keep the dish voltage constant.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

The best solution in my opinion for the LM555 stage it's a DC to DC conversion by an oscillator of 1 khz or more in according with resonance frequency of the trasformer and then we may use LM555 oscillator or 2 X BC107 as astable
multivibrator with a voltage up to 50 volt. I think that the voltage on Dish is it' subordinate to its physical dimentions.
My next steep will be to build a mix of ZAHORI and Ivconics' circuit without LM555 stage and with a only stage in high impedance imput... I think that ZAHORI it was the founder of the long range family... perhaps also Minero...

[ivconic]

555 ?

To FrancoItaly
Franco You can not possibly expect LM358 to act like 555 !?
Power supply is already 9V ! As I told before, no need for regulator at
all.That is the catch!Concerning all mentioned just remember a transf.
rate 1/1.5 (aprox....it should be a bit more).And freq.can vary from
1-5Hz (i think).Voltage is aprox. 15 v. We don't have to be neat in %.
About AC component, yes there is a "microscopic" tremble.About those
rect.diodes....they can be debated so.About other transformers...I
really don't know, I never tried any other type.56K modems, here are
very cheap 5-6 euros, mostly "made in China" stuff.But transformer
has some code I mentioned before, and I met some types with Motorola
logo on.Resistance is 45 ohm and 75 ohm, although my DVM maybe is not
so precise.
...............
I agree J Player.
...............
One more thing again.I would rather pay attention to improve stage which
comes after second TLC272. Until that point everything looks nice to me.
It will take more stages,buffers...i don't know. It just has to be
experimented with.

[FrancoItaly]

LM358 vs LM555

Hi Ivconics,
For our purpose I think that the LM358, double single supply operational,it can easy replace the LM555: it has a frequency range of 1 Mhz and a current output of 50 ma...
I use it very often and I have a circuit board with this IC for ewperimental uses. Do you have measured a voltage of 15 Volts between Dish and ground?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

Look for theese link:

http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html

http://www.vlf.it/Schumann/schumann.htm

http://www.vlf.it/below150/below150.htm

http://www.vlf.it/parmigiani-frozen/frlight.htm

A Ulf receiver with an E-field antenna it’s very similar to an ion detector, it can receive Schumann frequency, it may be that ground battery troubles Schumann signals?

[Esteban]

Here a lot of interesting projects:

http://www.vlf.it/

[J_Player]

Nice the links, Franco and Esteban.

It seems that these experimenters are interested in the frequencies they are seing displayed on an oscilloscope, while the ion detector is only looking at relative changes in the static ion/electric fields.

If we were to look at the signal at the output of the ion detector on an oscilloscope, then we would be able so see if there are frequencies or noise being sensed at the antenna. This Ion detector should be as sensitive as the detectors in the links shown above if we have a way to see the signal coming from the antenna better than a speaker and analog meter. The oscilloscope shown in the first link is actually a PC that uses the signal converter (probably on the sound card) to display the signl from the sensior circuit. I presume the processed signal is sent into the microphone input or line input, then converted to a voltage that is displayed as an audio wave would be done. The author wrote a C program to create a proper graphic interface that will display the signal with the same scaling as an occilloscope.

He used the inexpensive method instead of using an ordinary oscilloscope. But either way, the key is to find a method to see the full spectrum of the signal that is coming in when we move the dish to different locations with different targets.

A second comment about the low frequency signals that were found on the links above: Many of these signals are man-made signals, For example the low frequency signals that submarines use to communicate from deep under the oceans, and other man-made signals used in power transmission, telemetry, and studies of astronomy, etc. Also, some of these signals appear to be naturally occuring signals which originate in far space, while others seem to originate from within the earth or the earth's atmosphere.
With all these stray signals that are easily measured with sensitive instruments, we are interested in discriminating the signal that will be present when a treasure is in the proximity of the detector.

It is our goal to scan the naturally occuring signals until we see they change in a way that will make us expect there is gold or silver influencing these signals. This is why I think our first step is to take a close look at what signals our sensor is picking up, and learn what are the naturally occuring signals that we should expect. We also need to learn what common environmental anomalies will cause a chang in the signal, so we can predict what should be considered a trash target and what is a good target. This means we should learn what is the influence of a tree nearby, a building, a car driving by, or an airplane, or perhaps how the signal can be expected to change at different times of the day, or different sunspot activity or lunar tides, etc. By becoming familiar with these common influences, we can compensate the detector so it will not confuse us when we are looking for a target.

It seems to me the first step is to connect an oscilloscope to the detector.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAYER

You have fixed very good the main points of our “problem” . I have a 20 Mhz oscilloscope and other instruments in my lab but I don’t have a portable computer for external measurements.In the past time I have designed a vlf receiver in the range of 500 Hz – 50 Khz with a 2 ferrite coils as antenna and a VCF, a voltage controlled pass band filter, as tuning. Now I can achieve a ULF receiver in the range of 3 – 30 Hz with an E-Field antenna, a very high impedance amplifier, a VCF (I use CA3080 operational), a rectifier stage with a meter. By this “instrument” it would be possible to scan the above mentioned frequencies and to find possible anomaly in the ground (perhaps ground battery, my obsession !!!). I think it’s necessary to use a long handle, like a metal detector, for avoiding body’s influence.

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,

If you have no way to take an aocilloscope in the field, then your filter circuit to detect 3-30 hz can help see the lower end of the spectrum. You should also be able to hear the spectrum from 30-1200 hz on the speaker or headphones.

Here is another Idea: Ther are low-power cmos phase locked loop chips that will follow a frequency, and can be used in conjunction with a cmos decade counter that could change the frequency of what you sense on the signal. The decade counter can take the frequency of the input signal and divide by 10 to allow you to hear signals in the 12,000 to 120,000 hz range, or cascade a second counter for higher frequencies. The input signal to these counters would be sent through a schmidt trigger first with an adjustable threshold to set the sensitivity. I believe the cmos PLL has both an analog and digital input, and the analog signal threshold can be adjusted with trimpots.

These decade counters can also be used to multiply the low frequencies to 10 times higher, so they will produce an audible tone. This is done by using the phase locked loop's oscillator to clock the counter at a rate 10 times faster than the antenna signal, then using the carry from the counter to sync the PLL frequency. The only problem with this frequency multiplier scheme is the amplitude of the signal is lost after the digital stages. Perhaps the amplitude could be recovered by putting the digital signal and the filtered antenna signal into a comparator. The digital signal will have a known voltage, while the filtered antenna signal can be compared and the output could set the gain on the audio amplifier.

If any of this circuitry was to be built, then It would look like a control knob that you adjust to several positions: F/10, Fx1, Fx10, Fx100. Similar to sweep time constants on an oscilloscope, while you listen for the sounds.

It seems to me that a meter is ok for a simple indicator of signal. Audio will tell a lot more information because you can hear frequencies and amplitudes. But oscilloscope is still the best because you will see many things that cannot be heard, and you will be able to enlarge any small detail that you want to see closer. I have seen some small portable oscilloscopes on ebay. Some of the older ones seem like they sell cheap, and can be connected to an inverter at your car battery. Here is an example... maybe there are inexpensive deals like this in your area... http://cgi.ebay.com/Oscilloscope-BK-...QQcmdZViewItem

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAYER

Thank’ for your hints, I use often the PLL CD4046, it’s a great integrated circuit that has a stable and very linear VCO…

[ivconic]

.....

Hi,people!

I am very busy these days, I simply can not follow you in this very
interesting thread. But ideas are more than inspirative. I would
tell you again, let's just leave for a moment a 555 stage. It is
working just fine and no need for any mods.Let's just focus on further
signal analyze after the second TL272.
Second, I was thinking already to make some experiments with VLF
bellow 150 kHz.Not original at all, I know. Just look at the GISCO
EMFAD UG12, which is basic primer. I was thinking to use already
existent VLF signals from remote TX's as it is the case in UG12.
But further talking about that will dilute this subject of ion detector.
Somebody ask about dish dimensions.It is stated on schematic.
I also made experiment with one plate taken from old 8" ancient hard
disk as a "dish". It will need some experiments too. Many mails come
to me with a questions about real ion detection on the field. It seems
that some people had just skim visits on this thread.People,read this
thread and every post letter by letter! Many questions are already
answered here.It is not productive to talk about same questions here
again and again.(This is not addressed to the registered members here).
I was tested ion detector and it is detecting my "home made" ions for
real! Airborne ions...maybe. Burried gold and relics....NOT! Why?
I guess cose burried stuff do not produce ions at all, or at least, not at
wanted quantity!Than why are we talking about that device here on
forum like this one!? Because huge number of people are still beleive
in that theory that burried things can be detected by detection of ions.
I can not disallow that theory as i can not prove it either.But it will
take more experiments and mutual contributions to establish some firmly
attitude on that matter.Until that, i can agree or disagree with both
sides in many points. Delayed tribute to Dell for his contribution on
this thread, although i would be very joyous if we switch from very
academic to some more practical talk here.I mean more schematics,less
talks.Schematics do talk it self.Mods,schematics....schematics..mods.
J PLayer mentioned some ways how to further analyze signal from detected
ions.That is the point! J Player can you post some schematic on that here?
.....
regards

P.S.

FrancoItaly
"Hi Ivconics,For our purpose I think that the LM358, double single supply
operational,it can easy replace the LM555: it has a frequency range of 1 Mhz
and a current output of 50 ma...I use it very often and I have a circuit board
with this IC for experimental uses. Do you have measured a voltage of 15 Volts
between Dish and ground?"

Yes.Between 13.5 to 15.xx volts. About LM358...maybe so! But why wasting time
on that? 555 is just fine.You are straying of the main problem.What we need
from that stage, 555 is already providing.Again no need for higher voltage.
Higher voltage on the dish is a mismatch.Higher freq. on the dish is a huge
mismatch.1 to 5, even 10 Hz is just fine. Starting point here is that we supposed
to deal with ions, not with any kind of waves.Unlike in the ANKER post where
we had a case of nonsence explanations and jumbled various scientific principles.
Again leave that stage unchanged and focus on the further inspection of received
signal.Regards to you friend.

[Qiaozhi]

555 Timer

... although i would be very joyous if we switch from very
academic to some more practical talk here.I mean more schematics,less
talks.Schematics do talk it self.Mods,schematics....schematics..mods.

Good idea. More real design amd less evasive talking.
Also - Ivconic is correct - forget about replacing the 555 timer. It's only there to provide an energizing voltage to the dish.

[robert]

Huh!

:mad:
I spend a some time to build that ionic detector and it is not working at all!
Is it a joke or what?
Even a TL... burned!
Is there any mistake in the schem.? Any body help?

[J_Player]

Ivconic built this machine and it is working fine for him. There are 2 parts to the detector: The charging circuit, and the sensing circuit. You can test the charging circuit with a digital volt meter. Connect between the dish and the battery ground. you should have at least 12 volts. if not there is a problem in the charging circuit that needs to be corrected.

The sensing circuit is seperate from the charging circuit. There should be no connection between the two. Test for continuity between the ground of charging circuit and the ground of the sensor circuit. if it is less than 1 meg ohm then I would look for where the leak is. Also test between the antenna and dish. This should also be more than 1 meg ohm. If you find these two circuits are connected, then there is a chance of damage to the TL op amps.

If these 2 tests test ok, then the remaining sensing circuit is a simple differential amplifier and power amp stages to run a speaker and meter. You can test each stage at a time to locate the problem. be careful with the TLC271 and TLC272. These are FET devices and can be easily damaged if you touch the leads when you have a static charge on your hands. Use a grounding strap on your wrist.

[J_Player]

Here is a simpler design for an ion detector based on a very easy ion detector at this link: http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Circui.../staticdet.htm

The author says his detector works for finding ions in the air around ion sources. It is a sensitive detector because of the high impedance FET, but maybe not as sensitive as Ivconic's design with 2-stage FET amplifier.

My modified version of the simple circuit is below, for use with headphones. I have not tested this circuit, so some of the front end resistors at the FET may need to be adjusted. The audio amp portion is a working model that will make sound for any headphones from 8 ohms to high impedance. The dish charge is adjusted between 12 and 18 volts directly from the batteries and a potentiometer, thus eliminating the seperate charging circuit. This method of charging may introduce more noise into the signal, but maybe not.