Demistifing ion chambers and snake oil

[michael]

Hi Max, thank you for your reasonable answer.
you mentioned don't know such detector be able to detect 12 gold coins in medium size.
Do you know OKM products or have experienced them? do you believe these detectors be able to do this job (e.g. exp series)? we know these devices just sense fields above ground very carefully.
I myself own a Rover C and have made many tests and had many expeditions
without any positive results for gold (master of non-magnetizing metals),and once have witnessed one medium size copper pot at 4.5 meters depth couldn't be detected by exp 4000 but Lorenze deepmax X3 detected that old buried object (of course not much old).
but with my high wonder, I saw one of my compatriots have detected some gold objects by his exp.
one of them is 12 gold coins in medium size at 340 Cm depth. or one small gold sheet(23 Cm) at 210 Cm depth.
before this I never believed these detector work for gold. now my opinion has been changed about them.
What can be scientific justification for this? can be one thing except to field shaped around gold?
please focus on this subject.

[Carl-NC]

Michael,

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of being able to detect a handful of gold coins, or a 23cm sheet, at 2-3+ meters. Ferinstance, I suspect that an ordinary induction metal detector could be carefully made to do this in an air test, using extremely high power and critically-balanced coils. Whether this detector would still work with mineralized ground conditions is another matter.

It is also possible that the act of burial creates a local anomaly in the soil's magnetic signature, so with the right instrument (a detailed mapping mag, ferinstance) the burial spot would show up. This would happen regardless of what might have been buried, so technically it is not "detecting the gold." There are probably other possibilities.

If you have tested your Rover C on gold targets and got no positive results, then I suspect it is incapable of detecting gold targets. But maybe it is capable of detecting other signatures, like disturbed soil. Have you tried using it to map an area with known soil disturbances?

- Carl

[Max]

Hi Max, thank you for your reasonable answer.
you mentioned don't know such detector be able to detect 12 gold coins in medium size.
Do you know OKM products or have experienced them? do you believe these detectors be able to do this job (e.g. exp series)? we know these devices just sense fields above ground very carefully.
I myself own a Rover C and have made many tests and had many expeditions
without any positive results for gold (master of non-magnetizing metals),and once have witnessed one medium size copper pot at 4.5 meters depth couldn't be detected by exp 4000 but Lorenze deepmax X3 detected that old buried object (of course not much old).
but with my high wonder, I saw one of my compatriots have detected some gold objects by his exp.
one of them is 12 gold coins in medium size at 340 Cm depth. or one small gold sheet(23 Cm) at 210 Cm depth.
before this I never believed these detector work for gold. now my opinion has been changed about them.
What can be scientific justification for this? can be one thing except to field shaped around gold?
please focus on this subject.

Hi Michael,
I never had experience with OKM products and can't say about.

For sure you have my attention when talking about of detecting 12 medium size gold coins
so deep underground (3.4 mt). I don't know if it's possible or not and how. Maybe, as
Carl suggest, some anomaly take place in these conditions.

"What can be scientific justification for this? can be one thing except to field shaped around gold?
please focus on this subject."

uhm

can be...can be... a lot of things there

I don't know Rover C. Can't say what its main detection system is supposed to do. But I know
Lorenz machines and like them.

The anomaly hypotesis seems a good starting point.
I know that in south america some ths use a kind of rod to sample the ground for small red/orange
fragments mixed with the soil. That is: it's common in some areas to find impurities where a hole
was dug in the ground. These impurities are a kind of markers that say "hey! the treasure is just
below your boots". Seems stupid things but it's true. There is ceramic mixed in the soil there.

This is absolutely true. They find treasures this way. This pits are, infact, graves.

When excavation was performed some particles contaminate the soil and also covering procedures
maked layers pattern different from sorrounding ground. This disturbance can create an hot spot
in the local magnetic permeability also. Buried stuff and soil movements can affect fieldlines.
Also electrostatic field may be affected - but don't know how to map this in a reliable way.
For sure not with a leaf electrometer (or a Tesla bla-bla ion chamber).
As many here know, ceramic could have magnetic behaviour - everyone can experiment with a sensible
pulse induction detector and some red bricks fragments.

No Meissner experiment required here, everyone can do:
I've build up some PIs and all of these sounds loud with red bricks. I own also small test fragments
gently donated by a friend - also ceramic pieces, very old, that sound like bricks.

Now, some strange ideas:
Say then we have a sensible magnetometer and we are making a map of the Eart's magnetic
field using a very strict pattern, say a grid with one sample every 10cm or so, in our field.
We maybe, like in other surveys, like e.g. resistivity metering, can end up with a
detailed map of "anomalies" in the field underground.
But in this case the procedure must be so systematic that very few people
would do...so if the mag was instead in on a semovent robot e.g. a small tank-like,
, with a motion reference system, well things can be more relaxing for the end user.
Simple application of the principle is used in commercial cut-grass-robots---not the ones
made in china i mean, but the serious japan made ones.

It's not like when a mag is used e.g. in underwater exploration (location of ship wrecks)
where one beep signals that a strong magnetic anomaly (e.g. a cannon) was revealed over
the ground threshold level. Here we must take care of details measuring so little spots
in the mag field that anything else but mapping is required.
One thing to take into account there will be that a precise mag for the purpose need to be
, maybe, a proton precession type. So an extra duty energy source is required.
The advantage is that a hi resolution can be obtained increasing the sampling rate - so an
intelligent device could switch in hi-res mode when something strange is detected.

So , also without discrimination, one can make hypothesis based on the shape of the anomaly,
like happens in GPR explorations.

But step back. Also T/R detectors can find similar anomalies out there. I mean cavity and/or
mag field abnormals spots. In this case one can't say nothing about what's there before
excavation.

So, the real problem is: in both cases, one must excavate to discriminate really.

Then no "real" discrimination.
---end of ideas

If I have to dig for some meters (hey!) getting an heartbreak , I want be sure there's not any
stupid paint can, that's what I say. I'm too young for getting one digging pits.

Best regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Since many years, since the old forum, several times I was post about the anomalities. I call this phenomenom "electric field around conductive items buried for long time".

I'm not sure if science has interest in it of if the science can reproduce all this "microenviromental". Sure I found old buried metal (copper, bronze, silver and gold) with base open system, microvoltmeter. Also I know aluminium is very neutral, not at all, great quantity is another thing.

Round objects better!!! I conclude that the round objects "don't looses" the electric field easily regarding the form, the same effect you see in spheres, wich acquires charge and don't loose easily. This is in concordance with science.

The distance I achieve with microvoltmeter open base system was 80 meters for silver/bronze horse-chair adorns buried at 70 cm. Two green copper batteries clips, 40 meters, buried no more 10 cm depth, the both the same day. This was the first time I can conclude that the phenomenom is electric.

The illustrated report I can write regarding this phenomenom is very extense. At this time I don't have interest in any large report, since I'm not scientific, so this means no credit toward me, so, I'm not a reference. Also if I write a large report, this will stay "buried" for new threads and new members re-ask an re-discuss all the time. Great effort for nothing!

How I can demonstrate that the phenomenom is electric? Simple: if i shortcircuit the field, signal vanishes:

[michael]

Carl,
I haven't tested Rover C on gold target as they claim these detectors can detect at least 10 Cm x 10 Cm x 30 Cm dimensions full of metal not hollow. then it's impossible to prepare such gold test target, but about iron yes, I did and after 2 years of bury I got result.
my wonder is about those really small gold targets despite the size that are even much smaller than the least size producer assigns.
about soil disturbances you are right, one example I have done is a well that the valve was about 1 meters underground and before I have put it in this forum and other forum now I again put it here (Well Scanned); interesting point is geographical directions; as you see the real form of well is seen just in N/S direction whereas in S/W direction from the same well you see as segmented form.
the showed depth was right.
but Carl, as my compatriot tells these detectors shows every anomaly in its' place very accurately i.e. he hasn't found golds via a cavity diagnosis when he sees the screen 100% can diagnose if it's metal or mineral or other thing. and he says Supersensor do discrimination 100% reliable.
He even says once he's found a shovel at 4 meters by Rover C deluxe. you know this is impossible for best metal detectors.
I myself have detected one iron target and software shows the depth at 3-4 meters. as it's in a parking lot not possible to dig there, but in field and desert still no real target.
Can be other than emanating field to ground surface?
now I'm somehow encouraged about my Rover C and I have decision to combine with my FG80 given signals just have to wait for spring.
I think OKM products detect field perpendicularly and mineoro do this job horizontally.
one other thing; last week we injected radio frequencies in soil and scanned ground by Rover C the results were somehow interesting. If you're interested in it, I'll put results here.
(about the test target buried 2 years ago)

Max, thanks for your comments, but one thing: I have one PI made here and it never beeps with bricks, ceramics or other things. just beeps for metals, but isn't much powerful. about discrimination the answer has given above ( By Supersensor).
I'm gathering my compatriot comments in Q & A form in one pdf file and put it here. it's a good subject for think about some hidden reals.

[Rudy]

Sorry Rude-y, there can be no discussion with you. I don't see the respect, or the aptitude for you to think outside the academic box you have securely shackled yourself within.

I never said Gold, or any chemical element produced a "Field". I don't know if it does, or not. Nor, did I say the composition of the target "field" was any different from that of other Chemical elements. Dell

Direct quote from your previous post:

I would suggest that we are metering an emenating "field" rising from a target element to the surface of land, or water, and measurable above the earth in mass to at least 3,000 feet above the surface of the earth.

So, it is emanating from the target element, but it is not produced by it.
You talk in obscure riddles while saying .... nothing.

[Rudy]

Rudy and Max, I again thank for your info and too repeat my question, why don't you desire to answer me?
I repeat it as perhaps was ignored(# 25):

Sorry Michael, I had missed your post before in all the clutter.

"one thing is brought up here: I want to ask from knowledgeable men about electronic ; Max, Rudy,.... Do you believe that old buried gold objects( not only gold, any kind of metal)
behave completely different than fresh ones? do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device? Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?

There were several questions there. I'll answer in terms of Gold. It gets too complicated to mix in every metal into this.
The answer is: It depends on what type of behavior or property you are measuring.

If you are trying measure its electrical properties, like resitivity, yes, it would change given enough time, the presence of other chemicals, temperature and water. The gold could undergo a chemical reaction and form salts or other complexes and the resitivity would change.

Could you detect this change via remote (from far away) means? Possible but doubtful. Simply, there is too much other material in the way which would mask this change. You certainly could do a chemical assay of samples in a lab, but it hardly qualifies as remote sensing.

If you are trying to measure the "ionic" field remotely, the answer is no. For every electron that the gold ion has given up, there is a corresponding excess electron in the anion the gold cation is associated with. From a distance of several molecular diameters away, there is no measurable field. Quite simply, the "+" field of the gold ion is cancelled out by the "-" field of the associated cation forming the molecule.

Could you stimulate the gold electromagnetically by pumping energy into the ground? Certainly, that is how MDs work. The question is, how deep?
Here there are two issues: One is how much signal reaches back at you? The signal strength from the target propagates in all directions, not just in the direction of the detector. As such, the signal wavefront is spherical in nature and therefore the strength follows the inverse square law. One would be temtped to boost the amount of energy pumped into the ground to increased the strength of the received signal. The problem is that it is not just the gold that is reacting to the signal. All the minerals present react as well, so the "signal to noise" ratio is not improved. Kind of like driving through thick fog at night with the hi-beams on in the hope of seing better. Wether you use a VLF type technique to look at the target's resistance and permeability, or a PI, it is the same problem. You can tell that there are a lot of minerals present, but how to isolate the gold from it?

Do you really want to get a useful conclusion or not just to show your college info and cast those in our teeth? of course all of the forum members want to learn more, no doubt, and I'm always a learner without any arrogation, but you as physic analyzers please benefit us at least me from your field experiences.
before this thread I tried to get a conclusion, but one radical and crabby skeptic who disliked to get result, shifted from answers, bustled and took discussion to dispute, to nowhere.

I do not have any experience with Long Range Locators if that is what you are driving at. I work too hard for the money I earn to spend it on a box that claims to work in a manner that is not scientifically explainable, or that has been documented to work as advertised by an impartial panel of observers.

[michael]

Thank you Rudy, but what I was driving at was not only for LRLs, also for all kind of detectors that being produced for treasure hunting purpose: dowsing rods, LRLs, MDs, GPRs or even Polaroid cameras.
one of them is OKM products that claim are GPR and we just know are surface field sensors not real GPR.
As I remember some guys here like me, Robert have used these detectors and believed they never work. I remember this from Robert about OKM future 2005 :" it just sucks" or other guy here that had buried a big iron barrel at 150 Cm depth, but got no signal. I know some other users in Europe( like England) have got no satisfying results and dislike these detectors.
as another side other users in other part of world are very satisfied.(am not making story) what's the real factor for these differences? weather and soil conditions? or not, a simple answer; there is no precious object they expect or other answer in backstage?
as Max mentioned it's impossible to detect 12 medium size gold coins at 3.4 m and there is no device be able to do this job.
and me thought so. and I think what is being seen in Polaroid pictures or what mineoro guys claim about emanating field can be true, otherwise what can cause one small earring be detectable at 140 Cm?
sometimes facts are another things in reverse side of we think, then we conclude should wash our eyes and watch from other side and angle. and reach to this point; maybe field experiences have supremacy to some scientific analysis (as Max mentioned too)
I put here my compatriot comments in PDF file for open-minded people just for think and reach to appropriate location for assessments.

[Max]

Since many years, since the old forum, several times I was post about the anomalities. I call this phenomenom "electric field around conductive items buried for long time".

I'm not sure if science has interest in it of if the science can reproduce all this "microenviromental". Sure I found old buried metal (copper, bronze, silver and gold) with base open system, microvoltmeter. Also I know aluminium is very neutral, not at all, great quantity is another thing.

Round objects better!!! I conclude that the round objects "don't looses" the electric field easily regarding the form, the same effect you see in spheres, wich acquires charge and don't loose easily. This is in concordance with science.

The distance I achieve with microvoltmeter open base system was 80 meters for silver/bronze horse-chair adorns buried at 70 cm. Two green copper batteries clips, 40 meters, buried no more 10 cm depth, the both the same day. This was the first time I can conclude that the phenomenom is electric.

The illustrated report I can write regarding this phenomenom is very extense. At this time I don't have interest in any large report, since I'm not scientific, so this means no credit toward me, so, I'm not a reference. Also if I write a large report, this will stay "buried" for new threads and new members re-ask an re-discuss all the time. Great effort for nothing!

How I can demonstrate that the phenomenom is electric? Simple: if i shortcircuit the field, signal vanishes:

Hi Esteban,
I appreciate your experimenting and your way of testing different devices.

let's talk about:

"Sure I found old buried metal (copper, bronze, silver and gold) with base
open system, microvoltmeter."

well, under particular conditions, some ionization could happen, as I've told
some posts ago - also some spectral emission could appear but in any case the
target must be in a hi energized state.
Physics books call them (for ionizing) "ionization energy" and (for internal jumps of
electrons in outer orbitals) "energy pumping" process
, "energy pumping" is a term used in laser slang and the principle is the same of
hot spectroscopy using spectrometers...or also in a neon tube or in a mercury vapour
lamp...or whatever (there are a number of things out there using the same stuff)
--> one has to feed-in energy to make energetic "jumps" of electrons happen

So, if the detector don't send any radiation to the target (RX only) and is a simple
microvoltmeter or electrometer, the supposed electric field present must originate
from natural sources. Possible, but not really probable.
So then, if an electric field was generated we have another problem, as Rudy,
already explained:

"Could you detect this change via remote (from far away) means?
Possible but doubtful."

"If you are trying to measure the "ionic" field remotely, the answer is no.
For every electron that the gold ion has given up, there is a corresponding excess
electron in the anion the gold cation is associated with.
From a distance of several molecular diameters away, there is no measurable field.
Quite simply, the "+" field of the gold ion is cancelled out by the "-"
field of the associated cation forming the molecule."

Well, could some ion migration happen ? The answer is yes. Free electrons can move
but some kind of electric/magnetic force must be present here. The problem is that
electrons here are not in a vacuum tube and they are sorrounded by ground, so the
scenario is too complex to end up with a simple detection schema.

BUT Why a ionizing radiation, say natural gamma-ray from some radioisotope underground
would produce only gold or copper ionization, leaving any other thing sorrounding not
ionized ???

Things don't work like this. If a radiation ionize gold atoms is hi-probable that
many other stuff near gold are ionized too (or simply molecules break, like someone DNA).

To simplify words (I'll try to) is the same as you experience ionization and electrostatic
fields near your old TV tube after use and disconnected from mains...
your hairs are actrated ??? if you put pieces of paper are they attracted ??? if you put
say a small wood piece suspended by a spider web, is this attracted ??? if you put a leaf
electrometer --> what do the leafs - actracted each other ??? or deflected....
if you put in front of the tube your detector it say
that there would be gold inside your old TV tube ???
Would mean: everything that has a static charge interact with your ionized TV tube,
and any static field present (not only on metals) can be detected this way.
X-Ray emission is shielded but not enough to avoid this...gold detection.

So what one have to do ??? Digging the old TV for gold ???
Unfortunately, that's not a good idea, I think. But can change your life, too.

Returning serious:
"Round objects better!!! I conclude that the round objects "don't looses"
the electric field easily regarding the form, the same effect you see in spheres,
wich acquires charge and don't loose easily. This is in concordance with science."

Regarding the form ??? Ah, you maybe mean that sharp rods due to the charge density
gradient tend to behave different...simple words : charge is the same but more charges
in a small surface area makes more "concentration" then major "interactions":
like anti-lightening stuff. If it is so you are
right. But the spere is in the ground here and no ionization is probable. Any
discharge path is possible in ground - we have no insulated metallic spheres.

I think the purpose of Mineoro's so-called "ion-chamber" , visible in Aleximex's posts
pictures, is the like...a sort of spark gap with a sharp "injector" : but what it serves
for ??? amplifing electrical noise ??? Mr. Hertz would disapprove this.

Then
"How I can demonstrate that the phenomenom is electric?
Simple: if i shortcircuit the field, signal vanishes:
"
uhm
If I understand what's in your post...
if you have a conductor forming a short turn you have a coil and
if in that coil some current flows, you have a magnetic dipole. Just why the signal
have to vanish ??? What's the interaction between a (potential) mag dipole and the
supposed "electric field around conductive items buried for long time" ???

Your operator shorts the turn, then what ???

If a static field was present before shorting it'll be present after.
So, I think you detect not the supposed static field, but a magnetic interaction of
the "coil" with external magnetic radiating field (e.g. a radio station).
A small current flows in the coil , then the amplitude of the signal decrease in the
"rear" : it actually works much like a shield versus your broadband amplifier antennas.
I call it broadband amp becouse your microvoltmeter need hi-amplification (say 1000000)
and (must) have a large passband. Also your antenna set seems omnidirectional.

I want to say I appreciate you experiments in lr detection, but I think more physics
is needed to end up with a working long range detection system.

---
About Mineoro stuff i think:
if Mineoro's units work (don't know) it is not by electrometers, infrared, radiations, ions.
It'll becoming a restaurant menu list.

Best regards,
Max

[hung]

Hi Esteban,

If a static field was present before shorting it'll be present after.

Yes. Partly correct. Esteban is right. When shotcircuiting the field it MOMENTARILY vanishes.
In fact for small objects, if a hole is partly digged, it's necessary to wait about 30 seconds for it to show up again. Body charges come into play here.

So, I think you detect not the supposed static field, but a magnetic interaction of
the "coil" with external magnetic radiating field (e.g. a radio station).

No. This is another thing.

but I think more physics
is needed to end up with a working long range detection system.

Physics related to this has always been available. It's only a matter of knowing how to apply it. Discussion here without the proper lab work and analysis accordingly will remain just that. Empty theory and rethorics.

---

About Mineoro stuff i think:
if Mineoro's units work (don't know) it is not by electrometers, infrared, radiations, ions.
It'll becoming a restaurant menu list.

Best regards,
Max

Assure yoursefl two things. First they do work, otherwise I could never detect gold from large distances which I do. Second, the working principle is electrostatic and ionic. Unless you actually accept this possibility and perform research on how this is possible, theorizing things only upon incomplete studies available will not be enough.
Regards.

[Max]

Yes. Partly correct. Esteban is right. When shotcircuiting the field it MOMENTARILY vanishes.
In fact for small objects, if a hole is partly digged, it's necessary to wait about 30 seconds for it to show up again. Body charges come into play here.



No. This is another thing.


Physics related to this has always been available. It's only a matter of knowing how to apply it. Discussion here without the proper lab work and analysis accordingly will remain just that. Empty theory and rethorics.

---


Assure yoursefl two things. First they do work, otherwise I could never detect gold from large distances which I do. Second, the working principle is electrostatic and ionic. Unless you actually accept this possibility and perform research on how this is possible, theorizing things only upon incomplete studies available will not be enough.
Regards.

Hi Hung,
don't want you to upset. And for why...just for some physics?
Maybe my ideas doesn't care for you but facts remains facts,
anyway you swim around them.

Why don't you or any other win the $50.000 prize Carl gently offers ?

I just want to echange some informations. Nothing more.

So, turning back to the real problem,
I see on a czech web site this:

eXp 5000 for only 14.999 Eur

Do you think it works for the user? Because for the seller it works for sure.
And also for the manifacturer (OKM). No dubt.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Michael,

"maybe field experiences have supremacy to some scientific analysis (as Max mentioned too)"

I've just said that

"...also that good metal detecting
is a practice related task.

In future we'll discover new facts about physics or other sciences.
This don't mean that so-called-alternative science are all right or bad or nothing but commercial.
But without scientific evidences one cannot say - so a faith act must be performed."

It's different. Instead of what someone says, I think I'm open minded.
Just I want that these eventual new discoveries become scientific facts
before call them 'science'. No alternative science exist - only science.
"Alternative" would mean: I can't prove that fact so belive - faith - it exist
anyway with no scientific evidences.

Best regards,
Max

[Esteban]

I'm explaining my experiences, sorry if my experiments is out your books. The problem is this: you pretend that this thinks must be in your books. If in the electronic courses (and physics books!) you don't find how to wind different kinds of coil and less how to build a metal detector (the books only refers types of detectors and functionment principles), of course is very far the possibility of long range detection. More: An only walkthrough metal detector schematic you can't find in this important site. Another thing: I'm speaking about an inherent electric field. The instant pulse ampliffier you need is more than 1,000,000 times. But if you study in old books you can find many things no present in "modern" books. (Also primitive induce high voltage PI detection since 1850.) Most of us here are reinventing the wheel and rediscovering the fire.

Other possibilitties are: detection via normal detector as long range (coil system), infrared, ultrasonic, radio, electric and radio prospecting:


Special articles and bulletins on electrical prospecting

- Electric waves to locate metals, Engineering and Minning Journal-Press, New York, June 13, 1925
- The search for covered orebodies, Technical Engineering News, Cambridge, Mass., January 1925
- Notes on Scientific Prospecting, Mountain States Mineral Age, Tabor Bldg., Denver, Colorado, February 1924
- Prospecting by radio, Engineering and Minning Journal-Press, New York, November 1924
- Geophysical Methods of Prospecting, Technical Paper 420, U.S. Bureau of Mines
- Geophysical Prospecting: Some Electrical Methods, Technical Paper 434, U.S. Bureau of Mines
- Geophysical Methods of Prospecting, by C. A. Heiland, Quarterly of the Colorado School of Mines, Vol. XXIV, Nº 1


Respect the challenge, I'm not playing in this style. We are speaking in different languages.

[Max]

I'm explaining my experiences, sorry if my experiments is out your books. The problem is this: you pretend that this thinks must be in your books. If in the electronic courses (and physics books!) you don't find how to wind different kinds of coil and less how to build a metal detector (the books only refers types of detectors and functionment principles), of course is very far the possibility of long range detection. More: An only walkthrough metal detector schematic you can't find in this important site. Another thing: I'm speaking about an inherent electric field. The instant pulse ampliffier you need is more than 1,000,000 times. But if you study in old books you can find many things no present in "modern" books. (Also primitive induce high voltage PI detection since 1850.) Most of us here are reinventing the wheel and rediscovering the fire.

Other possibilitties are: detection via normal detector as long range (coil system), infrared, ultrasonic, radio, electric and radio prospecting:


Special articles and bulletins on electrical prospecting

- Electric waves to locate metals, Engineering and Minning Journal-Press, New York, June 13, 1925
- The search for covered orebodies, Technical Engineering News, Cambridge, Mass., January 1925
- Notes on Scientific Prospecting, Mountain States Mineral Age, Tabor Bldg., Denver, Colorado, February 1924
- Prospecting by radio, Engineering and Minning Journal-Press, New York, November 1924
- Geophysical Methods of Prospecting, Technical Paper 420, U.S. Bureau of Mines
- Geophysical Prospecting: Some Electrical Methods, Technical Paper 434, U.S. Bureau of Mines
- Geophysical Methods of Prospecting, by C. A. Heiland, Quarterly of the Colorado School of Mines, Vol. XXIV, Nº 1


Respect the challenge, I'm not playing in this style. We are speaking in different languages.

Hi Esteban,
I have already said that I respect your work, your experiments, your passion so I respect
you.

I'm sorry too that some stuff is not in my books and don't want to be offensive to anyone here but
I'm trying to rationally apply to this topic of remote sensing - "ion" detectors in this thread.
I've just used maybe too humor to relax the discussion a bit. I'm this way.

"The problem is this: you pretend that this thinks must be in your books."

I don't pretend nothing but understanding if that stuff out there works and how.
Because it costs. Costs many thousand dollars and sells and claims is capable to find
gold a kilometer underground. Is that not important ?
If so, I can also stop writing here and do anything else. Costs nothing.

To answer :
Obviusly, no physics book can tell anyone how to make an md coil or a pulse induction
circuit. This is not the point Esteban. Physics books teach physics, so principles:
application is a completely different story.

So maybe we can assume that this topic of constructing/experimenting with electronic circuits
is covered in electronics books, magazines, articles or any other kind of pubblication out there
regarding electronics not physics, including this forum.

Maybe EE books don't explain how to make a pulse induction but all electronics is a too big
universe for a kind of book. Maybe many of these lectures are required to make just a simple
circuit to be tuned properly. I own a lot of these. Read all of them. And physics also.
And more and more - but this is not the point again, Esteban.

The point is: this stuff works ??? if so, how ??? With pseudo-ion-
chambers ??? Nothing else.

"How" would mean that someone have to explain, in a scientific way, "how".
If you say "how metal detector works ?" there are explainations that make sense in physics terms.

Also for resistivity meters, magnetometers, GPR, side-sonars etc etc
So how ??? Mineoro, for instance, we see Aleximex posts and pictures and so ???
What's that stuff for ??? A PVC pipe is the magic sensor ???

I would understand, if it works, how.

Someone can explain ? There will be some kind of physics , or not ?
It's so hard to explain in a rational, educated, physical way ?
I've tryed to follow your experiments explaination just to understand the big picture of
what happeng e.g. shorting the turn etc in a scientific way.

"Another thing: I'm speaking about an inherent electric field. The instant pulse ampliffier
you need is more than 1,000,000 times. But if you study in old books you can find many things
no present in "modern" books. (Also primitive induce high voltage PI detection since 1850.)
Most of us here are reinventing the wheel and rediscovering the fire.
"
Don't know these but I'll take a look. Also at "Special articles and bulletins on electrical prospecting".

I own also old books but...someone say there, not too far ago, that lead can mutate in
gold. Others that say you can put asbestos in your mouth to seal teeth-holes. Yes.

We are in 2007 now - and some physics (and medicine) are far ahead.

Rediscovering the fire ? Why ?
Would be an unuseful discovery. Someone else has the patent (prometeus).

Maybe you mean discovering something hidden or misunderstud. If it so, good luck.

Best regards,
Max

[Delbert grady]

Old burried gold

In past times there was not so much trouble from Dicky Spy’s. They just could not operate so easily as they do today. But they were about as can be seen by the streaks
On many old photographs. I did a lot of photography in the past and did not realize till many years later that it was the pesky Dicky Spy’s that were causing the streaks on otherwise good photographs. Now days I like to search for gold using the FG80 long range locator. But the large number of Dicky Spy’s in Europe are making these devices unusable. I have not had any signals at all for months. To be honest I have never had a signal. Unless something can be done about D/S I can see no future for long range locating in Europe.