Mineoro 2-Box -- 492 feet range?

[Fred]

I said the ferrite coils are orthogonal to the front-mounted coil. They are in fact perpendicular.

Hi Qiaozhi,
what do you mean? I always thought those are synonyms

Have you seen Esteban´ post here:

http://www.thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php?p=63896#post63896

A clue?

Fred.

[Max]

Hi,
I'm at good point with whole schematic... very ugly thing of course... but simply enough to understand better how things goes... do you think we'll see any detail of inner of round cointainer on top of device ? I have serious dubts of that !

Now I'm doing some check on wires and colors... drinking a good irish liquor... so maybe tomorrow for complete schematic (but I cannot give any warranty cause of visitors here that make me leave that thing from minute to minute... dang! ).

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Hi Qiaozhi,
what do you mean? I always thought those are synonyms

Have you seen Esteban´ post here:

http://www.thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php?p=63896#post63896

A clue?

Fred.

Hi Fred,

You are, of course, absolutely correct. Unfortunately, today I have no idea what I'm talking about. I have such a bad cold I just cannot think straight.

What I was really trying to say was - the coils are not aligned at right-angles.

[Qiaozhi]

Hi,
I'm at good point with whole schematic... very ugly thing of course... but simply enough to understand better how things goes... do you think we'll see any detail of inner of round cointainer on top of device ? I have serious dubts of that !

Now I'm doing some check on wires and colors... drinking a good irish liquor... so maybe tomorrow for complete schematic (but I cannot give any warranty cause of visitors here that make me leave that thing from minute to minute... dang! ).

Kind regards,
Max

Good work Max. I'm looking forward to seeing the result. My head hurts too much right now to think about it...

[Fred]

Good work Max. I'm looking forward to seeing the result. My head hurts too much right now to think about it...

Hope you will be fine soon!
Maybe you should try Max method,Irish liquor,seem to work with him
Understood for the ferrite.may be important...
regards,
Fred.

[Morgan]

Barra 4???

I have been looking at the connections between the six PCBs, but some of them don't make any sense. The power supply is obviously 2F (i.e. barra 2F) and gnd (0V) is 2G. But what is B1 (for instance - see PCB5)? Maybe it should be 1B - but no - there are no connections to barra 1B. And - how about barra N2, barra 2, and barra N4 in PCB3?

Also - I made an incorrect statement in an earlier post, where I said the ferrite coils are orthogonal to the front-mounted coil. They are in fact perpendicular. So this is not a compact 2-box arrangement after all.

Here's a suggestion for you to consider - what if the front-mounted coil assembly does not actually contain any coils? Could it be similar to the Zahori? Morgan- please could you measure the resistance across the various wires that lead to the front-mounted coil? This will at least give us an indication as to whether there is a collection of coils, and (if so) which ones belong together as a pair.

Hey,Qiaozhy
Where you see this BARRA 4 ??? There is only BARRA 1,2,3, to connect wires,who came and goes from PCB´s.
About Antenna wires,i already glued all the PCB´s. Its ok if i start measurments without disconnect the wires?
I think this device its more complicated than we imagine...

Kind regards

[Qiaozhi]

Hey,Qiaozhy
Where you see this BARRA 4 ??? There is only BARRA 1,2,3, to connect wires,who came and goes from PCB´s.
About Antenna wires,i already glued all the PCB´s. Its ok if i start measurments without disconnect the wires?
I think this device its more complicated than we imagine...

Kind regards

Hi Morgan,

I've no idea, so I probably misread it. This cold is definitely winning.
Please do the measurements without disconnecting anything. Measure between every combination of wires that go the front-mounted coil. We'll try to figure out what it means after that. Thanks.

Now - must sleep ..... zzzzz

[Max]

Hi,
was hard work... but I think there's about everything apart some minor mistakes that are:

- there is an ORANGE wire at PCB3 (on supply rail) that must bind to PCB2: problem is that I cannot see any ORANGE wire that goes to PCB3 starting from PCB2; on PCB2 there are other ORANGE wires but not the one I mean:
this require a little check on that wire

- value of Sens-pot is still unknown so I've putted label but not value there: Morgan have to measure it or read value on case of it

- there's a 3 positions switch (I've called it SW2) that we don't know really how it switch wires: I've supposed a kind of connection but will be better checking that by Morgan with a multimeter

- I intentionally leaved out details on coils, cause I haven't suitable data

then can be , of course, other little mistakes...

Anyway, here it is, ugly but about right : as you can see it's much more simple now than with "BARS".

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

Thanks Max, nice work!

I can see that the ferrite circuit can be disconnected by the switch,probably for pinpointing.So now i am sure what we have here is a previous version of this:

http://www.thunting.com/geotech/forums/showthread.php?t=12049&highlight=pistol+detectors

Here the missing parts are explained, again some (intended) misinformation included,but with this diagram and thoses explanations i think we have enought to begin some experiments.
Esteban, if you have something to say say it now

Here Max schematic in B/W.Not perfect but may be usefull for printing.

Fred.

[Max]

pure speculations

Hi,
I'm not sure about things I'm writing cause have no evidence of that... don't know about inner of round container or ferrite stick(s) or coils on them.

Is one ferrite or 2 near and separated by a small gap ? Who knows ?
I don't. We have to see what Morgan will post more...

For now just my speculations:

- the ferrite arrangement with coils on it it's clearly derived from AM radio experiences and hardware: there are no dubts about
- the circuit connected to ferrite coils is clearly also derived from AM-MW-LW radios as well; the presence of two germanium diodes is quite a simptom of what kind of things it can do: amplitude demodulation of generated signal...
- the sorrounding part with transistors after germanium diodes are just amplifiers and signaling system that say "oscillator is up and running" (green led)

So, if we look at front side of circuit 5 (near coils) we discover is an oscillator that probably use the ferrite stick antenna as directive MW-LW range beam that propagates through the wood box to the outside environment.

I think the most interesting part is around the round box on top of device:
- it connects to circuit by also some external caps whose meaning is some kind of tuning of the part inside the box ... it's pretty obvious

Then there are total of 7 wires with supply and signals to it and 1 shield connection all around wires as expected from the critical part of circuit.

I say that inside the round box is probably a small board, maybe filled with epoxy, with some ultra sensitive fet input amplifier like CA3130 or CA3140: I would be not surprised if so. That's my speculation only... ok... but I think that critical aspect is just around that preamplifier there and the round coil I suppose is in the box sorrounding the small preamp PCB.

There circuit where it's connected is kinda of amplifier using transistors, darlington config etc... not difficault stuff... then some feedback and further amplification and filtering... then signal goes directly to VCO based on 555 and output stage transistor with buzzer and "target" led.

Principle of operation ??? BFO-OFF/Resonance, I think using a well higher frequency respect to conventional BFO MDs (but not so far from some of them of the 70s).

The ferrite coil send RF EM waves to target area...(and in the back) and target presence is indicated by an increase of "reflected" signal (like in 2boxes) but with frequency deviations due to target composition and other things like interface between target and soil matrix.

Why round coil is not overloaded by RF field on ferrite stick(s) ? Think about... the about total magnetic field is confined inside the core and its lateral propagation is really a fraction of front and back emission.

For me talking about IR emission or HV peaks is just putting some confusing argumentation more to a complex wiring diagram for what is really not so difficault circuit... just to confuse ideas... and deviate attention from real nature of device: pure RF device like other kind of MDs e.g. 2boxes running at 300KHz.

Just this. But maybe, also cause of this, this circuit could work better than a conventional 2boxes.

I think some people here knows very well this kind of device... but maybe they don't wanna talk about it for one reason or another.

Maybe there's nothing to patent... or all this stuff was already patented by Fisher in 1930 !

But but but , this circuit is interesting as a different approach ! That's what I think.

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

Hi!

Hi,
Is one ferrite or 2 near and separated by a small gap ? Who knows ?

Perhaps 2 i think...

So, if we look at front side of circuit 5 (near coils) we discover is an oscillator that probably use the ferrite stick antenna as directive MW-LW range beam that propagates through the wood box to the outside environment.

Max, i don´t think so:this circuit is probalby just passive receiver,eventually tuned by the gap in the ferrite cores.

I say that inside the round box is probably a small board, maybe filled with epoxy, with some ultra sensitive fet input amplifier like CA3130 or CA3140:

I think so too.An electric field preamplifier, just like those "storm detectors".

For me talking about IR emission or HV peaks is just putting some confusing argumentation more to a complex wiring diagram for what is really not so difficault circuit...

Yes,but i have small doubt about IR.

pure RF device like other kind of MDs e.g. 2boxes running at 300KHz.

no, not only

I think some people here knows very well this kind of device... but maybe they don't wanna talk about it for one reason or another. .

Oh yes! obviously.But it is understandable that someone who has invented those devices, dont want the idea to be stolen by others.And because they do really work, they dont either feel the need to sell them, unlike bogus detectors.And everyone with one would not be such a good idea either.I a way, i respect that idea.
Also, their use is probalby not for everyone, like regular customers, that may complain all the time.But i make a big difference between this pistols and the mineoro´s , that even if they may be based on the same ideas, have been too far away from workable principles.
Regards,
Fred.

[J_Player]

It looks like Max and Fred did some nice work learning more about the pistol detector. Very nice schematic.

Maybe there's nothing to patent... or all this stuff was already patented by Fisher in 1930 !

I think this is correct. Until I see a patent, I will have a hard time believing one exists. There are some novel concepts found in some pistol designs that could be patented. These concepts are centered on the search head and method of sensing the target, as well as the support circuitry and method of extracting the signal. But so far I have seen no evidence of these patents. If patents exist, then we are free to read them and use the designs to experiment with. If they don't exist we are also free to use the designs for experimenting.

The notion of "stealing the idea" is not possible. When someone builds an apparatus and places it in the hands of others to use, test, and experiment with, then what people see and deduce from their experience is not stolen. If a person wanted to protect an idea and keep all others from "stealing it", then he would need to keep the idea concealed within his workshop, not build an apparatus and send it out for people to test and experiment with. Personally I doubt there are any patents on the parts in this pistol detector. But if there are, I would like to know what patent. Perhaps a patent number, and country where it is patented?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Is one ferrite or 2 near and separated by a small gap ?

Could be either, but Esteban says it's 2. Anyway, this is an easy to experiment to perform.

So, if we look at front side of circuit 5 (near coils) we discover is an oscillator that probably use the ferrite stick antenna as directive MW-LW range beam that propagates through the wood box to the outside environment.

I agree with Fred. This is a passive receiver like the Gold Gun.

I think the most interesting part is around the round box on top of device:
- it connects to circuit by also some external caps whose meaning is some kind of tuning of the part inside the box ... it's pretty obvious

Then there are total of 7 wires with supply and signals to it and 1 shield connection all around wires as expected from the critical part of circuit.

I say that inside the round box is probably a small board, maybe filled with epoxy, with some ultra sensitive fet input amplifier like CA3130 or CA3140: I would be not surprised if so. That's my speculation only... ok... but I think that critical aspect is just around that preamplifier there and the round coil I suppose is in the box sorrounding the small preamp PCB.

Personally I do not think there are any active components in the round box. Have a look at the connections. Apart from the yellow and red wires - which I've already shown to be connected to at least one coil (the PI TX) - all the other wires have a series capacitor. So where is the power supply? We must wait until Morgan has completed the connectivity measurements. This should be very revealing.

Why round coil is not overloaded by RF field on ferrite stick(s) ? Think about... the about total magnetic field is confined inside the core and its lateral propagation is really a fraction of front and back emission.

Actually, I think it's the other way round. Why is the ferrite circuit not overloaded by the 92V pulsed output? Have you considered that there may be some shielding at the rear of the round box to limit the RF field in the direction of the operator. If not, then this device will detect objects behind as well as in front. I remember asking Esteban this question some time ago, and he said that there is some shielding in these devices.

For me talking about IR emission or HV peaks is just putting some confusing argumentation more to a complex wiring diagram for what is really not so difficault circuit... just to confuse ideas... and deviate attention from real nature of device: pure RF device like other kind of MDs e.g. 2boxes running at 300KHz.

Agreed. Although this device is a type of PI running at 400Hz.

I can see that the ferrite circuit can be disconnected by the switch,probably for pinpointing.

Yes - I had already noted this. There are 3 positions:

1. Connects power supply to ferrite circuit. This is probably the main setting.
2. Disables ferrite circuit. This implies that there is a another receiver coil in the round box, and the ferrite circuit is secondary passive receiver(aka Gold Gun).
3. Disables pulsed output as well as ferrite circuit.

I hadn't thought about this before. But - is this switch inside the device, or accessible by the operator from the outside. If so, then this may be part of the setup procedure.

Morgan - any comments?

[Qiaozhi]

It looks like Max and Fred did some nice work learning more about the pistol detector. Very nice schematic.
I think this is correct. Until I see a patent, I will have a hard time believing one exists. There are some novel concepts found in some pistol designs that could be patented. These concepts are centered on the search head and method of sensing the target, as well as the support circuitry and method of extracting the signal. But so far I have seen no evidence of these patents. If patents exist, then we are free to read them and use the designs to experiment with. If they don't exist we are also free to use the designs for experimenting.

The notion of "stealing the idea" is not possible. When someone builds an apparatus and places it in the hands of others to use, test, and experiment with, then what people see and deduce from their experience is not stolen. If a person wanted to protect an idea and keep all others from "stealing it", then he would need to keep the idea concealed within his workshop, not build an apparatus and send it out for people to test and experiment with. Personally I doubt there are any patents on the parts in this pistol detector. But if there are, I would like to know what patent. Perhaps a patent number, and country where it is patented?

Best wishes,
J_P

I would be amazed if a patent exists.

[Esteban]

There is not logic. You can't post a bmp more than 19.5 Kb.

The file of the film is near 8 Mb, so is impossible to post here. No want to put in mytemdir.com

Also I'm affraid by the decission of other forums: delete old posts. I assume a forum is like a library...

Merry Christmas!!!