MINERO

[schatzsucher]

it´s a new generation of diving rod

[mineorogreece]

mineoro again

HELLO CARL,
THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST.I WOULD LIKE TO SAY A FEW THINGS HERE.
FIRSTLY YOU SAID
QUOTE:
An ion is an atom, literally... if gold continuously releases ions, then it is dissolving. And, the only way the chamber of the PDC can detect such an ion, is for the ion to physically enter the chamber. This is not possible.

Also, this implies that physical atoms must leave the gold target, come up out of the ground, and float across the atmosphere to the PDC. You would be at the mercy of the wind. And if these atoms could enter the chamber and recombine with generated ions, there would be no directional information in this action. The atoms could come from anywhere.

All of this adds up to: tain't likely.

OK ,SCIENCE SAYS THAT ALL OBJECTS ON EARTH, AND THE METALS, -BURIED OR NOT-HAVE AN ION FIELD AROUND THEM,AND THIS CAN BE SEEN WITH AN ION DETECTOR.(SO IT IS NOT THAT GOLD IS DISSOLVING)
ALSO THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH DOES NOT SHIFT WITH WIND.
SECONDLY IONIC FIELDS AND ELECTROSTATIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC EASILY,THEY CANNOT GO THROUGH METAL BUT PLASTIC AND FIBERGLASS AND PVC THEY CAN.
THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN

[Carl-NC]

OK ,SCIENCE SAYS THAT ALL OBJECTS ON EARTH, AND THE METALS, -BURIED OR NOT-HAVE AN ION FIELD AROUND THEM,AND THIS CAN BE SEEN WITH AN ION DETECTOR.(SO IT IS NOT THAT GOLD IS DISSOLVING)

Can you show me where science says this? Can you tell me how long it takes for gold to start ionizing?

ALSO THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH DOES NOT SHIFT WITH WIND. SECONDLY IONIC FIELDS AND ELECTROSTATIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC EASILY,THEY CANNOT GO THROUGH METAL BUT PLASTIC AND FIBERGLASS AND PVC THEY CAN.

So you are saying that the PDC actually detects the ion's electric field, at a distance, and not the ion itself? Do you realize how absolutely impossible it is to detect the electric field of individual ions at a distance, especially in the presence of a large and varying ambient field? This is why ion detectors universally rely on ions physically contacting a collector plate, or going through a drift tube.

One other issue... drift tube ion detectors can distinguish between ions by their behaviour inside the tube. Simple collector-plate detectors cannot tell one type of ion from another... it just detects a charge. IF ion fields could be detected from a distance, there would be no way of knowing the type of ions... it would simply be a variation in the electric field, that carries no unique signature of the source (please, please don't tell me that gold ions have a specific frequency). So gold would be no different than iron or copper, or the ions emitted by a DC electric motor, or high-voltage power lines, or any other ions floating around.

So far, your explanations don't correlate with science. I still await photos of your dissected PDC205... perhaps they will show something that makes sense.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

it´s a new generation of diving rod

No, it's not that... there is no dowsing mechanism involved at all.

- Carl

[goldfinder]

Minero detects ions - really ???

I built a very sensitive ion field detector to test the Minero claims and posted this before. The basic results showed that there are so many ion source and electrostatic field sources in the outside environment (like trees and schrubs) that any discrimination would be highly unlike - translated into street English - the Minero can't work as advertised - more BS&M (Blue Smoke and Mirrors).
Goldfinder

[Esteban]

Detection of ions (molecules in movement) can be selected. Ionic selective detection is a reality and today exist special fets called ISFETS wich detects ions and substances. In accord to Scientific American:

The R&D effort started in late 2001, when Koehl, an electrical engineer, arrived at Cambridge from the California Institute of Technology. "From the beginning, I had the idea to create a small, cheap chemical detection system for the military and Homeland Security and then, later, for commercial markets," Koehl says. He soon met Boyle and Ruiz-Alonso, and during the next months, the engineers looked at a lot of sensor technologies, "trying to evaluate what we could take to the next level," Boyle reports.
A chemical sensor "is essentially a filter device," Boyle explains. "Each substance has its own signature smell or fingerprint. That's what we filter out." For Owlstone's sensor, the team chose to develop a relatively new and little known analytic technique called high-field asymmetric waveform ion mobility spectrometry (or FAIMS). The approach sorts compounds according to how their charged forms--chemical ions--move through a gas when subjected to electric fields.
As the ions are made to pass between charged metal plates, varying electric fields (that is, the asymmetric waveforms) drive them toward either side and back again successively, eventually causing most of the ions to hit the plates. But careful application of direct-current voltages to the plates keeps targeted molecules from hitting the sides until they reach a detector at the end. Each DC voltage correlates to an ion type, so the device can be "tuned" to detect specific substances.

More info here:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...6883414B7F0000

But this technic is not new. Another technic (no new) uses an oscillator at typycal frequency of 10 Mhz. This technic is called:

Quartz crystal microbalance (QCM)
A quartz crystal microbalance (QCM) sensor comprises a quartz crystal coated with a chemically-selective film. The crystal is configured in an oscillator circuit and typically has a base frequency of 10 MHz. When vapours from the sample interact with the coating film, some are absorbed, causing an increase in the mass of the film. This in turn leads to a decrease in the frequency of the sensor and this is measured as the response. The frequency shift is typically about some hundred Hertz. The advantages of QCMs include high selectivity, high sensitivity, stability over wide temperature ranges, low response to humidity, and good reproducibility.

This technic was used in airport for to detect explosives. For example, tissue of the skin of X reptile is placed in a one face of the crystal and the few molecules of explosive (one part in 200,000,000 parts of molecules of air) can be detected.

[Esteban]

Carl
Go these points for to analize:

1. 2 potentiometers no mean that all Mineoro's models have the same electronic circuit.

* * * * * * * * *

2. The next mean: the rain causes disperssion. 2 or 5 days after the rain, Mineoro recover his capability. So, they need that you and your witnesses to stay 10 or 15 days in Brazil, because sometimes there are many rains. This is part of his condition:

After the rain, the ionic electrostatic fields take from 2 to 5 days to recover to an ideal amplitude. Therefore it will be necessary that Proctors will be able to stay in Brazil approximately 10 to 15 days.

* * * * * * * * * *

3. For Mineoro, LRLs no mean DOWSING RODS. Mean: Long Range Locator, in this case electronic long distance detector:

We would like to make clear that we are going to claim your challenge as two different companies, Mineoro and Segmax, with two different LRLs, and when successfully completing the tests, you will have to pay USD 25.000 to each of the different Claimant companies.

* * * * * * * * *

4. The double-blind test only is for dowsing rods. OK?

Mr. Damásio,

There is only one $25,000 prize available. The first LRL that can be demonstrated using a double-blind protocol will win the prize and, after that, no other money is being offered. Therefore, Mineoro and Segmax may apply, but if one wins the prize the other cannot.

* * * * * * * * *

5. In accord Carl Moreland's conditions in the section:

Standard LRL Test

Revised 24 March 2005

$25,000 Challenge

FAQ / FAE

Summary

3. No traditional metal detection, magnetometry, or radiation detection is allowed. The test is limited to the LRL only.

In the case of Mineoro's electronic devices, the Standard Test Protocol is not applicable, because is a kind of radiation detector. (If we consider Mineoro works as ionization chamber.)

In accord to this point 3., Carl accept the existence of another kind of metal detectors with the capability to detect at X distance.

* * * * * * * * *

I think there are confusion respect dowsing rods and electronic long range locator. Obviously, the "treatment" is not applicable for Mineoro's electronic devices, this is PDC or another similar Mineoro electronic models.

[Carl-NC]

Esteban,

The two examples of ion detection that you cite both require the ions to physically contact a sensor, which exactly support my point that the Mineoro claims of remotely detecting ions are unlikely.

Do you work for Mineoro? You seem to be speaking for them in regards to my challenge.

- Carl

[mineorogreece]

mineoro detects ions

HELLO AGAIN
CARL YOU ARE INSISTING THAT THE IONS HAVE TO BE DETECTED AT A COLLECTOR PLATE,INSIDE THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER THERE IS A ANTENNA OR ANODE WHICH COLLECTS THE IONS ,AND BE SURE IONS DO GO THROUGH PVC PIPES WHICH IS WHAT THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER IS MADE OF.
ELECTRIC FIELDS AND IONIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC AND PVC.
THANK YOU

[Esteban]

Carl

I don't work for Mineoro. YES I know the two inventors. I assure you the both investigate long range detectors since many years and works all the days in this and they are serious persons. I was the person who said them the microcontroller version is not good, because the long distance detector REQUIRES external sensibility control, as old model DCH 85, you can see in a photo sent here (USA owner).

Now, via your message, I know your challenge.

I make semi-long distance detectors and contrast the PDC. The place where sounds my detector, sounds the PDC 205 or 210 and found the target.

I'm not scientific, but if I wait explanation from science WHY a simple RF detector in association with another electronics detects a coin (buried) 20 or more meters from the detector, never I will do experiments.

Why I involved in this? Because my first experience in metal detection was long distance, not the traditional, wich causes in me tremendous impression. As you, never I believe all this is possible.

The advantage of long range metal detector is the non-contact with the soil, mean don't have effects of mineralized soils and/or soil effect.

The more effective distance for a coin (80 m) with PDC 205 (in my particular experience) was in salty terrain. In another terrains decreases for a single coin. And this is a scientific fact (for me), because is a proof that the electrical conductivity of the soil increases much times this kind of non-contact with the soil detector system.

Ionic or electrical phenomenom, RF or what? Long range detector is an old reality. The photo in B&W of 1979 post now is another proof. Mr. John Baldwin (English, the more old man of all, died in 1987-88, don't remember very well) sustain a silver object found via electromagnetic-RF detector type radar. Mr. John and his different teams found thounsands gold and silver objects since 1960, first tube long range detectors, later transistorized as this photo.

[Carl-NC]

HELLO AGAIN
CARL YOU ARE INSISTING THAT THE IONS HAVE TO BE DETECTED AT A COLLECTOR PLATE,INSIDE THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER THERE IS A ANTENNA OR ANODE WHICH COLLECTS THE IONS ,AND BE SURE IONS DO GO THROUGH PVC PIPES WHICH IS WHAT THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER IS MADE OF.
ELECTRIC FIELDS AND IONIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC AND PVC.
THANK YOU

mg,

Are you saying that gold atoms can float right through the wall of a PVC pipe? Really?

And if the Mineoro relies on gold atoms physically entering the chamber, how in the world can the device determine where they came from?

Also, what is is the difference between an electric field, and an "ionic field"?

- Carl

P.S. -- Do you, or do you not, have photos of your dissected unit? I would personally like to see exactly what you found inside the chamber.

[Carl-NC]

I don't work for Mineoro. YES I know the two inventors. I assure you the both investigate long range detectors since many years and works all the days in this and they are serious persons.
.....
I'm not scientific, but if I wait explanation from science WHY a simple RF detector in association with another electronics detects a coin (buried) 20 or more meters from the detector, never I will do experiments.

I'm not questioning their dedication, just their technical claims. Whether it's ions, or electrostatics, or whatever, it just doesn't jive with well-known science. And keep in mind, that I did test a PDC205, and found that it could not detect gold.

Based on my experiences, and the claims of Mineoro, I will gladly extend my challenge to their product, providing that a fair test can be agreed upon. A test as shown in the Kurt Kluey video, would be unacceptable.

BTW, I like the pics you've posted. Interesting.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

I make semi-long distance detectors and contrast the PDC. The place where sounds my detector, sounds the PDC 205 or 210 and found the target.

Esteban,

Does your design rely on similar principles as the Mineoro (i.e., ion or electrostatics)? Can you suggest a simple experiment in which this principle can be objectively demonstrated? I will gladly build up a test circuit and try it out.

- Carl

[Esteban]

Carl:

Mineoro PDC with two controls is not the same you show here. In the past I had the model “dissected” in this forum and said the both inventors that this is not the ideal for smalls items (coins, rings, etc.), only for big masses.

In consideration to my suggest (I think), they added controls wich works in the threshold.

My next step is detection with the new PDC and shows via video how to adjust and detect with it. You need X experience with this detector for to center the exact point of the target.

No mean that the persons who read all this buy immediately PDC according my words, because if you don't have certain searching method with it, you'll failure.

Remember this: PDC also detects copper, bronze, silver and alloys of these.

My designs in not the same than Mineoro. I finish a design as the B&W photos I post here and consist in a search oscillator coil - radio - audio signalizer and another electronics.

Waiting more good weather for to test in inland. I'll post results.

Carl, sorry, for the moment can't post any technical info.

[hung]

I have just returned from a trip to Mineoro's factory where I performed tests with the detectors and met Damasio, the inventor .

I own a PDC 210 and there I experimented with the new GDP. It had been raining for 2 months almost non stop and the ionic field of buried objects gets extremely weak as the atmosphere gets charged negatively. Even with this scenario, the PDC 210 beeped over really small targets in their test field. But I had to almost touch the ground for this. The new model which is more sensitive responded from 15'' away tough. Their test field is full of ancient jewelry buried because as soon they started to dig the located objects they learned they were small objects like rings, necklaces, etc.. due to the place has served as a spot for farmer families celebration parties in the 19th century. So the terrain is full of objects which they chose not to dig in order to remain as test targets.

The new model has a special switch that when engaged, allows the user to work near high voltage power lines. I was informed that a gold brooch was found close to a 13,000 volts powerline tower.

This discussion regarding wether or not the ionic field detection is for real is null for me. I know it's true and Mineoro detectors are finely crafted precision instruments which are able to classify the ions of gold and detect it. Just that. If one studies the phenomena he will know.
Of course, as ionic fields highly depend of earth's 'humour' there are the special ocasions in which the ionic field is ideal as their website explain.

Also one thing I learned from Damasio is that he's not worried at all about people trying to dismantle the device to see how it works or trying to copy it.
There are components inside that no one will ever know how it works or what it is for, except the inventor himself.

Just my 2 cents.